Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: String ramps: changing the Break angle  (Read 7228 times)
Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« on: July 04, 2009, 04:08:19 PM »

Anyone done this? What does one use to cut the slot neatly?
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
Big E
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 237


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 04:30:49 PM »

I ramped my cheapo guitar. It worked out well. I would not use the same method on my Larrivee. I had to on the beater as I shaved the saddle to bring the action down to a pain free height. 
Logged

"If at 1st you don't succeed, sky-diving is NOT for you"
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 04:42:42 PM »

I call them string ramps. I did it on my Larrivee. I took a small jig saw blade and slowly made the cut. Then you can finish with a Grobet joint round edge file about .058" thick to leave a perfectly round and uniform slot/ramp. It's the same type of file that many use for nut slots.
Logged

Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 08:15:34 AM »

I call them string ramps. I did it on my Larrivee. I took a small jig saw blade and slowly made the cut. Then you can finish with a Grobet joint round edge file about .058" thick to leave a perfectly round and uniform slot/ramp. It's the same type of file that many use for nut slots.
Changed the title of the thread accordingly. Thanks for the info.
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
ncognito
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1447




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 11:27:41 AM »

What are the advantages of doing this: does it improvre tone?  Can someone post photos because it's hard to visualize this?

          DAVE
Logged

-Larrivee LSV11e (sadly sold))
-Lowden S10c
-Taylor 455ce L7
-Guild D40 (donated to science due to terminal      Onthevergeofimplosionitis)
-Brian Fry Custim 000 in the works
Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 12:16:06 PM »

What are the advantages of doing this: does it improvre tone?  Can someone post photos because it's hard to visualize this?

          DAVE
Various reasons:
If the break angle is too low, the string can't push down on the saddle enough for the saddle to make good contact with the base of the saddle-groove in the bridge.
That results in the string not being able to transmit its vibration to the guitar's top properly. When amplified, it also causes "distorted" sound when a Under-saddle transducer is fitted. These transducers require ample pressure from the saddle to function properly.
What causes it might be poor design - I think this is the case with Larrivee's belly bridges - poor because the pin-holes are all positioned parallel with the front edge of the bridge, rather than parallel to the saddle, resulting in the unwound (Southern) strings' positioned progressively further from the saddle.
Another reason is the saddle that protrudes too little above the saddle because:
a. the saddle is not high enough, could also be too low because the neck needs a re-set.
b. the groove in the bridge is cut too deep, resulting in the saddle not protruding high enough above the saddle.

A proven way to cure this, would be to cut a slot between the string-pin hole at an angle, towards the crest of the saddle, allowing the string to lie in the slot, resulting in a steeper angle, thus more pressure on the saddle to allow for ample vibration to be transmitted to the soundboard at the bridge.
The 1st pic shows hardly any string break angle, the second shows a good angle, and the last one shows the strings lying in string ramps to improve the break angle.

By the way Dave, increasing the break angle for a specific string, is also a means to increase that particular string's volume when balancing strings with one another.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 12:23:39 PM »

I call them string ramps. I did it on my Larrivee. I took a small jig saw blade and slowly made the cut. Then you can finish with a Grobet joint round edge file about .058" thick to leave a perfectly round and uniform slot/ramp. It's the same type of file that many use for nut slots.
I do know that if one cuts them with a dremel, the cutting teeth must be very fine to prevent chipping the edges of the bridge material.
Even then it might be a good idea to cut the slot first with that jigsaw blade, agree Jeremy?
This pic shows how the Southern-most bridge-pin holes are positioned further from the saddle because of the relative angled position of the saddle. Those slots will need to be cut longer and/or deeper to maintain a uniform string break angle.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 12:42:37 PM »

I do know that if one cuts them with a dremel, the cutting teeth must be very fine to prevent chipping the edges of the bridge material.
Even then it might be a good idea to cut the slut first with that jigsaw blade, agree Jeremy?
This pic shows how the Southern-most bridge-pin holes are positioned further from the saddle because of the relative angled position of the saddle. Those slots will need to be cut longer and/or deeper to maintain a uniform string break angle.

You can order a purpose made saw, for about five bucks, from Stew Mac here: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Saws/Bridge_Pin_Hole_Saw.html

You could also just take a jig saw blade and wrap duct tape around the top of it, for a make shift handle, and use that. Sort of like a prison shank.
Logged
L-fan
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 01:41:38 PM »

This is a great thread - I'm learning a lot.  It does make me wonder how a good archtop can get such great sound with it's low break angle.
Logged

Scott

RS-2
GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 02:03:45 PM »

This is a great thread - I'm learning a lot.  It does make me wonder how a good archtop can get such great sound with it's low break angle.

Archtop design is very different from flattop design. The way the tops are shaped, the bracing patterns, the way the back works in conjunction with the top to create the characteristic throw of a good archtop. Very different sets of design characteristics. I don't know a lot about archtops, but I did restore a nice old tenor archtop from the late 20's early 30s. That experience has me itching to learn some more about the design of that type of guitar. When I finish up the few projects I'm working on now, I may try to find an old decent quality, but beat up archtop to completely disassemble and have an inside peak at the guitar.
Logged
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 03:28:13 PM »

I do know that if one cuts them with a dremel, the cutting teeth must be very fine to prevent chipping the edges of the bridge material.
Even then it might be a good idea to cut the slut first with that jigsaw blade, agree Jeremy?

The dremel probably cuts finer than the jigsaw blade.
Logged

Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14027




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 04:12:33 PM »

Great thread but I have a ? for Ga-Me....Why do you know about prison shanks.........














 
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 05:45:09 PM »

Great thread but I have a ? for Ga-Me....Why do you know about prison shanks.........
 

Rob, I worked in Delaware's largest prison for almost six years. I was a B2B rover, for about the last 2 1/2 years I was there. This position is essentially a first responder/prison police type of gig. We responded to disturbances in the buildings, that were within our quadrents, and in the case of massive disturbances, we responded anywhere on the compound by radio directive. One of the other functions we had was to serve as shakedown crews and do whole building, cell, by cell, searches of the cell/property of the inmates. So, in response to your question, I know a fair amount about shank designs and materials. Far more, in fact, than I would like to know, as it turned out, which is one of the myriad of reasons I said ta' hell with jailin'.
Logged
Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14027




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 06:21:35 PM »

 bowdown Your f***in incredable and amazing,my respect has risin 10 fold.
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2009, 06:23:36 PM »

Even then it might be a good idea to cut the slut first with that jigsaw blade, agree Jeremy?
Oops, I guess that should be slot. - sorry..  blush blush blush
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
Zohn
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 06:36:06 PM »

You can order a purpose made saw, for about five bucks, from Stew Mac here: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Saws/Bridge_Pin_Hole_Saw.html

You could also just take a jig saw blade and wrap duct tape around the top of it, for a make shift handle, and use that. Sort of like a prison shank.
Although I suspect that specific application is for slot less bridge pins, it will certainly do the trick for ramps as well. I'm going to shape myself one out of a fine hack-saw blade on the bench grinder. Thanx for the link!!  +1 (shipping that sucker to Africa will cost an arm and a leg)
Logged

"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure
GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 06:56:29 PM »

Although I suspect that specific application is for slot less bridge pins, it will certainly do the trick for ramps as well. I'm going to shape myself one out of a fine hack-saw blade on the bench grinder. Thanx for the link!!  +1 (shipping that sucker to Africa will cost an arm and a leg)

Once you ramp the slots you will want to put slotless pins in or, at the very least, turn your slotted ones around backwards. Once the ramp channels are slotted, the ball end of the string will rest directly against the bridgeplate itself. What you are after, with the slotting, is to move the string forward and hold it there. It kind of defeats the purpose to ramp the pin holes and then in turn put the slotted pins back in.
Logged
GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2009, 07:05:46 PM »

One other thing, once the ramps are cut you may have to take a reamer to the bridge pin holes to properly seat the new slotless bridge pins. The whole process is really very simple when you uderstand the angle of the break you are trying to create and if you understand you nead to ream a little bit, check fit for pins and repeat, until the pins all sit even and flush.
Logged
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2009, 07:16:27 PM »

Once you ramp the slots you will want to put slotless pins in or, at the very least, turn your slotted ones around backwards.

I think it's better to turn them sideways. That way you've got the full diameter of the pin coming into play and filling the hole front to back. That's kinda hard to explain but hopefully I got the idea across.
Logged

GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2009, 07:23:29 PM »

I think it's better to turn them sideways. That way you've got the full diameter of the pin coming into play and filling the hole front to back. That's kinda hard to explain but hopefully I got the idea across.

Jeremy, I get what you are saying by turning them around sideways. It allows the entire diameter of the pin to come into contact with the pin hole front to back. That makes sense to me. I have always just ordered a new set of pins and then fit the new slotless pins after completing the ramping.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: