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Author Topic: No respect for sapele?  (Read 9993 times)
Zohn
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 11:26:34 AM »

one thing to look for-
while both mahogany and sapele can exhibit striping, the mahogany stripe will generally be broken up along its length, running only a few inches while the sapele is a contiguous stripe along the length, spanning the distance of the body of the guitar.
Nothing wrong with sapele in my estimation.
I've got my eye on this quilted sapele L-09...



+1 Is that the L-09 in Dave's inventory - I've been checking it out myself - tasty is the word that springs to my mind.
That's a rather rare quilted sample though Fongie - I guess the only way to distinguish between quilted Hog and quilted Sapele would be the terrific smell of Sapele.
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 12:37:18 PM »

Hey Dude, this thread have been debated in the past. Hog and Sapele are closely related, so you've got yourself a great git.  , and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Anyway, who cares, a Lav. git is a Lav. git, hog or sapele, I'll have either or both.
cheers
fongie

 +1 nice guitar
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bluesman67
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2009, 12:49:39 PM »

I've seen pics of quilted sapele before and I remember thinking that it was as beautiful as any guitar I've seen.  Go for it.
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bluesman67
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Danny
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2009, 01:07:47 PM »

Yes, if you want bright and crisp, go for a maple.  Respectfully Danny, I don't think your ears could tell the difference in a blind test between mahogany and sapele in the same model guitar. 
  I have played a LOT of sapele gits. NONE, ZERO, NADA...splg? have impressed me yet.
                           And yes I can tell a difference. RESPECTFULLY
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bluesman67
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2009, 01:41:09 PM »

  I have played a LOT of sapele gits. NONE, ZERO, NADA...splg? have impressed me yet.
                           And yes I can tell a difference. RESPECTFULLY

Fair enough.  Personally, I don't believe that I can tell the difference in a blind test.  I have played a lot of sapele's and owned 3 of them.  One is my 000-15s and it's possibly the best sounding guitar I own, it is a saptop though, not at all bright but very warm and rich sounding (although brighter than my F1 hogtop) .  I also owned a D-03 and L-03 in sapele, and also an LS-09 in maple, which sounded nothing at all like the D or L.  I do believe on a small body, sapele is actually superior to mahogany from what I have heard becuase if there is a difference at all in the tone, it holds the notes together better in a small body that is played with a heavy hand.
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2009, 01:49:07 PM »

I keep waiting for someone to straighten this out.

Sapele is NOT from the same family of trees as true Mahoganys.  Public perception of the excellance of Mahogany have caused sales people to steal the name and add it to other woods to make them more acceptable to the buyers.


Quote from Matthew Mustapick on an AGF thread:
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Honduran mahogany, sapele (occasionally called African mahogany), and khaya (often called African mahogany) are three different kinds of wood and I've enjoyed building with all three. They are very similar in terms of texture. Generally, sapele is the hardest and most dense of the three, then HM, then khaya, though there is a good deal of overlap, and it would not be reasonable to assume that any randomly selected piece of sapele is necessarily harder than a randomly selected piece of HM or khaya. Sapele and khaya are not genetically mahoganies, but this is by no means a strike against them and to me it seems rather pointless to attach any premium to notions of what is "genuine". After all, HM is not genuine sapele either. All three can make excellent guitars, or the other kind of guitars.
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To repeat him.. " Sapele and Khaya are not genetically mahoganies "

This does not lessen the tone qualities of Sapele.  To each his own ear be true.
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2009, 02:16:09 PM »

For those who may be inclined to inquire, there is research into the Just Noticeable Difference(JND), for timbre, between instruments of different class as well as of instruments of the same class or type.  Folks might be surprised at how large the JND needs to be between individual instruments for there to be statistically significant displays of consistent, accurate, blind, differentiation between  stimuli.
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Danny
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2009, 02:24:55 PM »

For those who may be inclined to inquire, there is research into the Just Noticeable Difference(JND), for timbre, between instruments of different class as well as of instruments of the same class or type.  Folks might be surprised at how large the JND needs to be between individual instruments for there to be statistically significant displays of consistent, accurate, blind, differentiation between  stimuli.
   What is JND?     I know of "John Nelson Darby" who translated a very accurate version of the bible over a hundred years ago. Nice read. ;-)
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2009, 02:37:49 PM »

Danny, the Just Noticeable Difference (JND) is essentially the minimum required deviation between any two sensory stimuli for a human being to accurately differentiate between the stimuli. It can be, say, how much of difference between weights in a person's left and right hand is needed before a person can relably differentiate between heavier and lighter. It can also be the necessary difference between fundamental tone and overtone components between exactly the same model of guitar, with different tonewoods, before a human being can accurately differentiate in blind tests. Now understand these are based on averages. There are always outliers, such as those with truly BIG ears, like Tommy E, or someone with incredible ability to differentiate between weights, but the JND, once established, holds across populations in the agregate with disturbingly consistent percentages.
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Danny
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2009, 02:39:42 PM »

  Thank you sir.
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dougs
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2009, 05:27:55 PM »

I not sure what difference it makes whether your guitar is hog or sap. If it sounds good and is pleasing to you, everything else is academic. I own both: OM-03spe and an LV-03 hog and they both sound great, but there is a small difference in sound. The sap is a little bit brighter
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GA-ME
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2009, 05:49:34 PM »

I not sure what difference it makes whether your guitar is hog or sap. If it sounds good and is pleasing to you, everything else is academic. I own both: OM-03spe and an LV-03 hog and they both sound great, but there is a small difference in sound. The sap is a little bit brighter

 +1
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TokyoNeko
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2009, 07:11:35 PM »

Sapele is NOT from the same family of trees as true Mahoganys.  Public perception of the excellance of Mahogany have caused sales people to steal the name and add it to other woods to make them more acceptable to the buyers.
TECHNICALLY Mahogany, Sapele and Khaya belong to the same family called Meliaceae.  It's the difference in genus that sets these trees apart:
  • Mahogany: Swietenia
  • Sapele: Entandrophragma
  • Khaya: Khaya

Nevertheless, I agree with the context of the post that Sapele isn't Mahogany and Khaya isn't Mahogany.  It'd be much better for Sapele and Khaya to be considered as different woods as opposed to mere Mahogany substitutes.
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2009, 08:25:18 PM »

as someone once said (and I continue to quote him/her)
"I personally don't think most people could tell the difference in sound between the two. Of course there is the occasional person who can differentiate between the African and English swallow strictly by the variation in sound of wingspeed."
-Unknown
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magictwanger
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2009, 08:56:01 PM »

Well,I am surely in elite company,as the folks who have spoken before me are quite knowledgeable.I'd take their opinions seriously.You can learn alot,however.....

  Coincidentally,I was at a local Larrivee dealer two weeks ago,just to fiddle around,and check out a book on music theory...

  I'd picked up a few really nice guitars to "plunk" and was impressed with quite a few.

  "Hey",I'm no snob...to me there are a load of really great gits around.If something sounds really good,it "is" to me!

  So,I was on a "hog kick" and wanted to check out some Gibsons that were in stock....Loved one in particular,as I never was a big Gibson fan.I guess I have gotten to appreciate more variety in my old age

  OK,so at the end of the afternoon(luckily I'm the boss,so a two hour lunch goes unnoticed ohmy)...I scoped out a Larri D-03 Sapele...and...(remember this is only my unqualified opinion,but I think I know what good sound is)..

  I was mightily impressed!...It was at this point that I "felt" that it had a slightly brighter,but oh so nice,sound as compared to a hog...in all honesty....I would care less about it's comparison to another "similar" tonewood

  I loved it...ALOT!    Good "is" good,no matter the technical attributes or wood choice....just my two cents

  Best to all
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rustychicken
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2009, 09:27:36 PM »

the problem is that it is referred to as an inferior grade mahogany, and since mahogany is becoming scarce the hogs will be valued more.  soundwise, you probably couldn't tell much of a difference, and if there is one, it may be due to other variables.  i had an om03mt that i loved. it was very bright and strong.  i sold it as i wanted a little more bass on the lower strings.  after looking around, i found an om03SP  and it did it for me.  i wanna like the hog better, but between these two guitars the sapele did it for me.  another guitar might be different.  just enjoy,,,if you like how it sounds, then you're a winner.
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bluesman67
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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2009, 10:11:25 PM »

Quote
... just enjoy,,,if you like how it sounds, then you're a winner.

winnah winnah, chicken dinnah!
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bluesman67
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fongie
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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2009, 10:19:46 PM »

... just enjoy,,,if you like how it sounds, then you're a winner.


winnah winnah, chicken dinnah!

 +1
cheers
fongie
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Danny
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2009, 02:42:43 AM »

  I played an all hog 000-15S Martin today. It's a 12 fret. It was an amazing tone. NOTHING like sapele at all. I guess I'm in a minority here, but I definitely hear a difference, a big difference.
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fongie
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2009, 04:21:58 AM »

  I played an all hog 000-15S Martin today. It's a 12 fret. It was an amazing tone. NOTHING like sapele at all. I guess I'm in a minority here, but I definitely hear a difference, a big difference.

How bizarre is this Dan, just got back from the git show, and you wouldn't believe it, played a 000-15S and a D28 and a OM, just beautiful
cheers
fongie
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