Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Your thoughts on polishing the satin finish out.  (Read 7142 times)
naboz
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1431


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2009, 03:16:41 PM »

Jeff, the third step in the Orsino Method is wax.  I wasnt overly concerned with the problems associated with wax if a refinish were called for, so I have done the three steps each time I have glossed a satin--I too like the extra shine (and water repellance).
dgrose, not to downplay Jeremy's job, but I think you will find it attainable with careful application of the three steps. (My results have all had that amount of shine, some alittle more, it ends up being how many buffing coats of the second step you want to put your arm thru.  I usually do four.)
Logged
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2009, 03:35:32 PM »

I don't like the idea of using wax. I don't want anything extra coating my guitar. A gloss nitro or poly is shiney enough without wax and both are water resistant anyway. Unless you store your guitar outside in the driveway under some trees I don't see the benefit to waxing.

Like naboz said anyone can get these results by understanding the buffing process.
Logged

bluesman67
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3166




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2009, 05:53:19 PM »

I think if you know you will keep the guitar forever and you really don't like the satin finish....polish away and do a fine job with it, it will certainly come out nice if you take your time.  I would think though, that it could depreciate the value if it's a guitar that you decide to sell.  I know if there was a guitar that I wanted to buy from a forum or ebay and it was buffed/polished, I would want to get it for a steal of a price because I would only assume that imperfections exist.

I'm generally of the opinion that I find true beauty and appreciation for either finish on a guitar...satin or gloss.  They both have their pros/cons and are visually appealing in their own way so for me personally, I don't think I would buff/polish one of my satins.  I enjoy the natural glossing process of a satin guitar that gets played a lot.  True it's uneven, but I like that.  It's gives me a sense of satisfaction, accomplishment, and commitment as I play that guitar and see it change over time...sort of like my favorite old t-shirt.  I realize I'm probably in the minority, but that's my brief answer to the question that this thread poses.
Logged

bluesman67
HOGTOP CHARLOTTE

www.reverbnation.com/hogtopcharlotte
dgrose
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 442


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2009, 10:22:08 PM »

...I would think though, that it could depreciate the value if it's a guitar that you decide to sell.  I know if there was a guitar that I wanted to buy from a forum or ebay and it was buffed/polished, I would want to get it for a steal of a price because I would only assume that imperfections exist.

Just as the opinions here are varied, so is the perception of a potential buyer. Of the many guitars I've sold, I've found that many (especially less-experienced) buyers equate a satin finish with a less expensive guitar. A well-polished satin guitar might fetch a better price than an untouched satin guitar.  Personally, I don't polish with a view to sell. I polish for my own preference.

dg

 
Logged

BluesMan1
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1779




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2009, 11:39:47 PM »

   Jeremy, do you really think the wax will equate to less sound, such as it will fill in the pores of the wood? I was wondering this when thinking of using it, having done so on alot of furniture. There, the idea was to fill in the pores after sanding out the previous finish. Having no experience with guitar finishing, & yours looking beautiful, by the way, I'm not sure which way to go. I, also, am a fan of gloss, but then again, as Joseph is saying, some guitars just speak for themselves, no matter the finish (hope I'm not putting words in yo' mout'!). I am seriously thinking about glossing my F-III, but am not sure of the direction to go. Don't want to hide sound, but bring it out. I just love the look of wood, thus wax on furniture really doing the job.
   Until this thread, I've never heard of the "Orsini Method". Is it not the best way? naboz, thanks for the info. I'll have to dig deeper. Have you noticed that wax affects the sound, as far as lessening or inhibiting it some? I'm having a lucid moment, thus taking adavantage in expressing myself. They don't come often!
   Jeremy & naboz, could you both respond & explain a little more?
    Thanks.
      Jeff   
Logged

'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2009, 11:58:37 PM »

When polishing out the satin finish you are not removing it, only making it shiny. You won't be filling the pores with wax since they are already filled. To put it bluntly, if you were to completely sand off the finish and then wax it that would be stupid. I don't know if I could hear wax dampening the sound but I don't have any reason to try it to find out because you should be able to get the finish plenty glossy without putting a coat of wax on. Look in the 'Technical FAQ' for the tutorial on polishing out a finish. Let us know if you have any other questions.
Logged

kdonovan
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 540




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2009, 01:11:54 AM »

http://www.tomyoungguitar.com/OrsinoizingPage.html


kdonovan
Logged

kdonovan

tadol
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1996




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2009, 01:48:35 AM »

I put a high quality paste wax on my guitars - Helps protect the finish, and adds a tiny bit of gloss. I haven't done my F3s yet since I have not decided about the pickguard, and I am sure the wax would prevent it from bonding to the top well if I decide to install it. Don't use car wax, avoid silcones, and be careful of floor waxes that are high in carnuba unless you really like to buff -

Tad
Logged

Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -
BluesMan1
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1779




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2009, 06:02:38 AM »

   I had Jim put the clear pickguard on, after making much ado about finding a right handed one for it. Mine was coming with a lefty because they put a lefty neck on a righty body, which was the first time Larrivee had done this & for some reason, really confused them. All I wanted were the neck dots to be on the proper side for me, since all is backwards. Took them a while to decide that they could do it. My idea was to just put the neck dots on the opposite side, something I have to do to all of my guitars. Thus, 2 sets of neck dots, 1 on each side. They just made it more complicated with the opposite neck, & since Jim was installing a bone nut & saddle on mine, it all worked out. Thought it would be an easier thing to do than put a different neck on, but the thought process is different for them.
   Any way, sorry about the dissertation. My point is I have the clear guard on the matte finish. Obviously, it would come off before I started. I wondered the same thing Tad had, about how well the pickguard would stick to the newly glossed surface, either way I go. I checked out kdonovan's link (Orsino Method) & that seemed to give the best results most effectively, with minimal time involved (3-6hrs.). Is it better to put the tortoise shell p/g on before finishing, which makes more sense, since it will be bonding to an unfinished surface? Or will the guard stick well enough over the gloss finish, which I'm kinda doubting? The biggest repair I've ever made was to a cheap but good sounding Ovation years ago, reglueing the bridge back on after it just came flying off one day. Scared the s*** out of me!! But the area to rebond to was unfinished, so I just taped around that to make any cleanup of glue runoff easier. And tape around the bridge, for the same reason.
   So what's the story, p/g on unfinished surface, tape it up, & the do the gloss. Or will it be able to stick fine to the gloss, even if there is a suggestion of something extra to use for added adhesion. It would be much easier to do it last, that's why I'm asking. And Jim has more p/g's, if I need them. But want to know before starting!
   Gracias.
     Jefe Jeffe (that's a joke!)
Logged

'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2009, 01:12:40 PM »

   Is it better to put the tortoise shell p/g on before finishing, which makes more sense, since it will be bonding to an unfinished surface? Or will the guard stick well enough over the gloss finish, which I'm kinda doubting?

You won't have the option of putting the pickguard on before finishing unless you plan on refinishing the guitar. The pg will stick to the finish both before or after polishing just fine. The pg won't stick to wax.

Logged

GA-ME
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2478




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »

When polishing out the satin finish you are not removing it, only making it shiny.

That isn't entirely true. You are removing finish, to a degree, until you get up into the higher grits like Rottenstone and the finer micromeshes. Then its just polishing as it doesn't actually cut the finish. I've never used the micro mesh products and couldn't say what grit with those products truly stops cutting finish and starts the final polishing stages. Even at the 4F Pumicestone level, you are removing finish. That being said, it would take a lot of elbow grease to cut through the finish on a Larrivee with something as fine as 4F Pumice though. You'd have to be pretty stupid to do that and perhaps you shouldn't own tools at that point!

I'm not sure of the abrasiveness of Scratch X, but if you are actually removing the fine swirls you are still cutting finish. I used to use some 3M(can't recall the product name as I haven't built a custom bike in more than 15 years) product for buffing stages of custom Harley tanks and fenders and it appeared to be pumice stone suspended in liquid and it cut finish. The final 3M product didn't truly cut, and you could buff to a very high gloss with it, and I believe it was simply very expensively prepared Rottenstone, truth be told.

Once you get up to about 1500 to 2000 grit wet-sanding, you'd have to really not be handy or understand what you are trying to accomplish to actually go through the finish. Its the 600, 800, and 1000, grit stages of wet sanding that can surprise you. Especially, the 600 grit stage. You can burn through a finsh pretty quicly wet sanding at 600 grit if you are inexperienced with that type of work.
Logged
naboz
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1431


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2009, 02:56:26 PM »

Remember now, I have done the three steps each time, and that involves the wax on the 3rd step (Meguires Crystal Finish System or something like that--its buried in the garage right now).  I have not had a tort. pg on any of them--dont like them.  The clear ones seemed to have the satin finish to them, as there was that aforementioned "swish" sound when playing.  The first time, I took the guard off.  The next, I decided to see what would happen if I buffed the guard (and just treated like the rest of the top).  It was great; took the swish away, and did not affect guard in any other way!  My OM03SP I took the tort guard off and didnt replace it--I dont play hard, just fingerstyle, and am not too worried about an "unprotected" surface. What I have noticed, especially with Tad's LV03R (the RW being so dark and deep showed any little mark--Tad, I still miss that LV, but I am just not a RW sound person), was that after the 2nd step (polish)--for each coat--it was easy to leave fingermarks on the new finish.  So, I would put socks on as "gloves" and  set the guitar in a neck stand to "dry," and when I had finished 4 polish coats I thought I would like to seal it, so I wouldnt have to worry about those fingerprint marks.  Hence, the waxing of the 3rd step. It worked, I like it, and have done it that way each time.  I still am not sure if there is silicone in the Meguires, but it doent seem to have harmed my guitars.
Sound-wise; I think I mentioned earlier that I hear more difference from a string brand change than I noticed any sound difference after the change in finish.  I do know that since my all sapele OM has been refinished (3 days after I got it), and started living and ageing with me, I find myself playing it more than my OM05--which is 8 yrs. old.  The depth of the hardwood top--which by the way, if anyone has noticed, Jean really thinned the sapele tops for maximum voice--is just something else in DADGAD!  I like them both though, as the OM05 seems to have more chime and bell-like tones; so whatever mood I'm in...now if I could only get a 12 fret!  Yeah ,, I was
Logged
naboz
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1431


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2009, 03:12:52 PM »

That was one of my longest posts in a while!  And it seems I was cut-off!
Just wanted to finish my thought--Tad knows I really had hoped to buy his 00-05, and since, as I have seen these FIIIs going up on the block for good prices, one of them.  Alas...I do look forward to playing Roger's FIII this Summer when we get together.  Then I'll probably be really smitten!
Once again, sound-wise; I think the ageing/opening-up process will be discerned more than any incremental difference from the refinishing--and I think I am pretty discerning and pretty close to "perfect pitch", even when, or maybe because of, changing tunings.
Logged
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2009, 04:30:23 PM »

That isn't entirely true.

If it wasn't obvious I was speaking of the finish as a whole.

after the 2nd step (polish)--for each coat--it was easy to leave fingermarks on the new finish.

If you are leaving fingerprints there is either something on your fingers or on the surface of the guitar before you touch it. Make sure all the polish is removed, you may need to wipe it down with some naptha. Mine doesn't leave fingerprints.
Logged

BluesMan1
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1779




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2009, 05:21:47 PM »

   Jeremy, bottom line on this. I can live with the matte finish just fine. Only wanted to bring out the beauty of the wood. The more I read about all of this, many are saying that it's best to just leave a new guitar with a matte finish alone & hold off. The sound will be affected by the refinishing & not allow the true sound to open up (their words, not mine). They make it sound like the guitar will sound best if just left alone, & sound is my #1 thing with a guitar. What do you think is best for these F-III's: let them open up for a few years & then try it, do it now, or just don't do it? Do you think it will affect the sound, in your opinion? I just got mine back from Jim after some issues, so haven't been able to "play the snot out of it" yet. Still has that new sound to it. Am still waiting for a little more "openness" in the bass & overall sound (IS/HOG).
   Anybody wants to chime in also, please do!
     Jeff   
Logged

'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2009, 05:30:33 PM »

Polishing a satin finish and refinishing are two totally different things. Which one are you asking about?
Logged

BluesMan1
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1779




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2009, 09:59:57 PM »

   Ignorance is bliss! I thought you did the polishing of the finish out first, then refinished. I think I have woodworking in my mind too much. I remember the pics from the build now where the finish looked like it was glossy. Is that what "polishing the finish" is referring to? Bringing it back to THAT point? When I saw those pics, I thought they were glossing the guitars up for us, as a "surprise'? Didn't realize until I read further that all was buffed out, leaving the matte finish. Still confused. All you're doing, then is, by using superfine "grit", basically just buffing the matte out?
   Refinishing is then sanding until you remove all existing finish, then adding a new finish, as obvious as it it sounds?. Some are saying one thing, others agreeing but...This is the KISS thing, as simple as possible. You REFINISHED your new guitar, since none was existing before, the matte is just "buffing" out the gloss? Do I have it right now? blush
     Jeff   
   Don't mean to p*** you off or push you over the edge, but I think I have it now? The "Orsino Method" is refinishing, yours is just a buffing process. Correct?
Logged

'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true
jeremy3220
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2009, 11:15:55 PM »

 When we are talking about polishing/buffing a satin finish we are only making the existing finish shiny/glossy. I didn't refinish the guitar I built because it never had a finish, I simply 'finished it'. The pics I posted in this thread are of my OM-03MT which I buffed out... it still has the original finish on it but it's now shiny/glossy.

"Didn't realize until I read further that all was buffed out, leaving the matte finish."

No because buffing is done to make the finish shiny. With the satin finish Larrivee just sprays it, no buffing afterward like the gloss finishes get.

The Orsino method is not refinishing, it's is polishing. No one in this thread is promoting the idea of removing all the finish.
Logged

naboz
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1431


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2009, 01:13:03 PM »

Correct... the Orsino Method, step one, just prepares the factory matte finish, sanding down the matte.  Then the polishing (with polish) begins in step two--as many coats as one wants to subject their arm to.  Step three many consider optional, which is the application of wax.  I may have mislead if I said I refinished, but I think of it as refinishing because there is a finish and I am redoing (refinishing) it.
Logged
BluesMan1
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1779




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2009, 06:08:10 PM »

   Jeremy straightened me out, but all of the info helps. Thanks.
     Jeff   
Logged

'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: