Beyond the 03 Series

Started by strawintogold, April 17, 2009, 07:00:33 AM

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I've not been on the forum for a few days, and when I got back on, this wonderful topic was posted.  After reading though the discussions, I've learned many things, and heard a lot of great insight.  We have some very intelligent and well read forum members on here.  (Much better that way than having ignorant ar$e's on here) :humour:

I think that there is a lot beyond the 03 series, not saying that they're "lowly" guitars.   What is beyond the 03 series isn't for everyone either. You have to want to get into those higher series guitars.  If the higher grade woods, finish and bling are what you want or need, then thats what you should buy. I think it's great that there are these amazing guitars out there for such a low price.   Some people would say "Why settle for something that's not finished?", and to them, I would tell them not to dismiss these 03 series guitars because they're great. The satin finish isn't for everyone, some people can't get over the fact that it isn't shiny.  The 03 series guitars tend to open up quicker from my own experience. The thicker finish on the 05 and up holds that process back compared to the 03 series.  But in the long run, perhaps the 05 and ups will sound better after time? I can't really say right now, but I'm hoping to find out.  

At this point, I want my next guitar to have a gloss finish. It's something that I like, and I'm looking for the right guitar to fall into my hands for the right price. I wouldn't turn down a great satin finished guitar if it came across as a great deal though.  Most of my guitar shopping has came as "crimes of opportunity" - finding something in a store that I fell for, and then taking it home.  

I absolutely love my D-03R, it's one of the nicest guitars that I've ever played, and it's gotten so much better in the past 4 years that I've owned it. I wouldn't trade it for a D-10 just to get the "better" guitar.  


To sum it all up.  I like guitars, and I like having many options out there for me when I'm buying them.  Maybe some more options would be nice, for example, the 04 series would be nice to see again or Mahogany guitars in the 10 series appointments. Others would be seeing gloss finished necks as an option, or on the satin necks having the peghead overlay done in gloss.   Oh, just bring back the custom shop. ha!


Larrivee D-50 total sunburst
Larrivee D-03r
Gibson Custom Shop Advance Jumbo Gold
Gibson SG Classic
Gibson Les Paul Studio
Seagull S6+GT
Art&Lutherie 12 String
Epiphone M-20 Mandolin
1960/61 Supro Lap Steel
Squier P-Bass

I have to say I really don't care for the gloss on Larrivee's. The guitars look almost encased rather than enhanced. My Classical has a lovely finish, very thin. So it comes across as part of the sum rather than an addition to.

No, I will not put IMHO here. There I said it,lol.

I've not, however, seen another carry a satin finish like Larrivee does. The Breedloves I've seen, they look like it's something you are settling for. I don't know if it's the wood Larrivee uses or the method but the satin finsih on a Larrivee looks like a choice, not a settle for.

holly
"Needs more cowbell."

http://www.artfire.com/users/goatmountainarts
15% discount for Larrivee Forum Members (enter Larrivee coupon code at checkout)
Handmade soap and stuff.

I have to agree with Holly's statement about the satin finish being a choice.

Larrivee does an excellent job across the board on all levels but I haven't found any satin finish guitar at that price point which delivers the quality that Larrivee does. The total cost for my two Larrivees came in at less than $1,500. If I had gone with my second choice from another guitar company, I would have paid over $3,000 for the two guitars I was looking at before I found Larrivee.

With Larrivee, I could have upgraded to a gloss finish on both guitars but liked the satin finish better. Now that I have played an L-09 Quilted Maple 12 string, I am faced with a challenge. Now, can I get that in a satin finish with a cutaway to match my LV-03MT 12 string and convince my wife that it is a necessary household purchase?


   Jeremy, after reading the article you provided, I can honestly say my L-10 is a "handmade guitar" & has "factory craftsmanship". I guess I've been blessed! :humour:
But seriously, I'm not kidding. Just don't build them like they used too! In the words of James Brown, go ahead, hit me! And pass the peas!
   Holly, I know what you mean about some matte finishes, but the 2 Larrivees I have that are glossy are definitely not encased! They are so open, it's not funny, no jokin'! Both the L-10 & SD-50 are things of awesome sound. Have to be heard to be appreciated! Ask other SD owners. I'm not kiddin'!
     Jeff   :guitar
'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true

Quote from: strawintogold on April 19, 2009, 03:48:01 PM
If  I may, I think a lot of this back and forth (not here, just in general) happens because it seems as if it's either factory built or individually built. From what I've seen Larrivee seems to be a happy medium.

This is one of the things that I enjoyed most about touring the Larrivee factory - they have a number of amazing people who are EXTREMELY good at what they do. Maybe one or two of them could build an entire guitar very well, but they aren't trying to. They contribute to the process with their special skills and insite, a that contribution is what makes those instruments as good as they are.

Even if I were the the worlds best individual luthier, hand building instruments one at a time for 10s of thousands of dollars, I could never afford the equipment much less the expertise that the the Larrivees have in their woodshop just to saw the raw material to start working with. I spent a half hour or so talking with the gentleman who works on their saws and does their sharpening ( missed the bending area entirely ) - they have a couple of beautiful ( and expensive! ) bandsaws jigged up just to slice the tops, backs, and sides. They have another pair of saws that I though were 4-head moulders that were actually beautiful european frame saws - they hold half a dozen blades in a frame, spaced very exactly, that oscilate up and down to cut the bracing and other  parts. They are power fed, and the material that comes out of them has a surface that is perfect and ready for gluing, no circlular saw marks, and truer than possible from other techniques. This man ( I wish I could remember his name ) not only sharpened all these blades, as well as the bandsaw blades and other tooling they used, but also maintained all this machinery expertly in a work area that was literally getting sprayed with water to keep a constant humidity. His expertise with those machines was amazing - and it was aimed solely at taking that special material that Jean would buy, and turning it into the raw pieces that would go on to become guitars. This kind of highly skilled specialization is something no one-off hand builder can ever hope to have - until they build a small factory and hire exceptional people - but oops, then they are not individual hand builders anymore, are they? And that is just one part of what it takes - don't get me started on the quality and efficiency of their CNC set-ups, even for some of the most mediocre tasks invoved in building a guitar.

The balance required to keep the quality high and the price reasonable, finding the quality of materials and training the quality of people to do this work - it really is amazing to me.  If Jean Larrivee ever wanted to do very custom, extremely fine hand-built instruments, he has everything he needs at his fingertips, and could probably blow most others away. Instead, he has supported a number of them getting their start.  I think alot of custom builders are very glad he has chosen to go this way, and those of us who appreciate the quality/price point he offers us as musicians are very glad of it too -

Tad
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

Quote from: tadol on April 19, 2009, 08:20:00 PM
Even if I were the the worlds best individual luthier, hand building instruments one at a time for 10s of thousands of dollars, I could never afford the equipment much less the expertise that the the Larrivees have in their woodshop just to saw the raw material to start working with.

I don't know why, lot's of individual luthiers resaw their own wood. It's actually a pretty common practice, even among some amateur builders.

Here's a pic of some Red Spruce that John Arnold (possibly the top expert on red spruce used in guitar building) harvested along with the late Ted Davis (pictured).


This is a guitar he built from it. He's also one of the top names in building pre-war Martin style guitars along with Wayne Henderson and TJ Thompson.



He better get those logs out the guys yard before he gets home!  But seriously thanks Jeremy. You've been on a roll lately providing good info.
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: flatlander on April 19, 2009, 09:33:23 PM
He better get those logs out the guys yard before he gets home!  But seriously thanks Jeremy. You've been on a roll lately providing good info.

yeah those tree thieves are a rough cut.

I think about $700-800 is all you need to get a bandsaw that will cut tops or backs out of billets. I'm sure wood suppliers use some really expensive stuff... Of course people have been building guitars before electricity was invented to run the equipment Larrivee uses to saw their tops. For bracing all you need is a good mallet and a froe (something you could make from a lawn mower blade); even I have enough 'expertise' to process bracing from billets.

Edit: speaking of expertise... that reminds me of Mario Proulx preparing braces to be glued. Most people will sand the arc onto the bottom of the braces using a caul or a beltsander, or use a jig and a table saw, or cnc or whatever. But the best surface for gluing is a planed surface and Proulx's method involves using a hand plane to successively form the arc and then finish with a single stroke all the way from one end of the brace to the other with the plane. I don't know how long it would take me to even successfully complete one brace like that but he does it in less than a minute.

Won't argue with you Jeremy, but I have a small resaw, and have had bandsaws from 10" to 24", only a 14" now- Resawing through 9" of spruce is not the most difficult, but accurately and cleanly resawing through 9" of rosewood or maple is a real challenge. Your average new $7-800 bandsaw is going to choke on it, big time.

I also have a framesaw and bowsaw, and when much younger, actually did try my hand at resawing thicker veneers without power. ( Also tried making my own plane blades and hand planes ). They are pretty good decorations on the shop wall now -

Thats a nice looking red spruce log - maybe 32" diameter? This material in Vancouver was way over 5ft diameter to start, and all the bracing was split, then sawn from the splits, just like the tops. Nice stuff -

Tad

[attachment deleted by admin]
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

Quote from: jeremy3220 on April 19, 2009, 01:56:47 PM
Here's a good article. http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

Here is a quote from that article:-

Because dimensionally identical guitar tops and braces can be twice the mass and up to three times the stiffness of their companions in the assembly line factory guitars are, essentially and literally, random collections of these physical variables

That is a significant variance between different tops.  I understood that cutting tops to a standard thickness would result in variable stiffness and density, but not to that extent!!!

When he says companions, does this mean other tops in the factory, or other tops from the same tree?  I would assume that there is consistency in a single tree, and that perhaps the care that JCL takes to pick logs in person may contribute to why Larrivee gets a name for consistency compared to other manufacturers in a similar price bracket?  He is, to an extent, utilising his individual luther skills in a pretty critical part of the process.  I'd be interested to know if you can get an impression of whether a complete log will yeild dense stiff tops or not, or if that is a complete unknown until it is cut?  Maybe I am talking jibberish :laughin:, but someone also told me on this very forum that the only stupid questions are the ones we don't ask.

I also like his comment that top end factory guitars are no different to lower range models (the 03 vs 05/09 argument) because they are built to the same recipe, just decorated differently.  The same level of inconsistency is innevitable.
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

My Gallagher G-50 is way lighter than my friends. Same wood. It did have some top issues, it's 30 years old, but after neck reset it plays like butter and top has been determined to be stable now, But way noticably light. I haven't wieghed it but it fells like it wieghs 1/2 of L-10 and like I said noticably lighter than another G-50 from '76. Mines an 80'.
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: BenF on April 20, 2009, 06:10:32 AM

When he says companions, does this mean other tops in the factory, or other tops from the same tree?  I would assume that there is consistency in a single tree

I take him to mean tops and braces made from the same species to the same specs, not necessarily the same tree. I know there can be variance within the tree. Consider how many conditions effect the growth of a tree like climate and forest density. If a tree started its life in a dense forest and somewhere along the way many trees were cut down around it, that could drastically change the growing conditions.

Quote from: tadol on April 20, 2009, 12:15:57 AM
Won't argue with you Jeremy

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I just don't see why anyone needs to be the Batman of sawyers. It seems there are plenty of people out there who are more than competent enough to saw their own wood; If not, they can always buy the tops or backs from someone who is. I don't see why this highly skilled specialization is something any one-off hand builder would ever need to have... assuming they didn't.

Quote from: tadol on April 20, 2009, 12:15:57 AM
Thats a nice looking red spruce log - maybe 32" diameter?


34.5" at breast height according to Arnold. It was an old growth tree(400+ yrs old) that blew down due to a hurricane and they were lucky enough to harvest it.

Wow - 400 year old red spruce - definitely a rare and special pile of material. Thanks goodness someone recognized it for what it could be, rather than bucking it into firewood -

And I don't think that every builder has to be expert sawyers, you can buy sets from a number of good suppliers, and it is what I would do even with my equipment - my comment was only that this skill, and material, and expertise, is what goes into the -03 series instruments. I think thats pretty cool, and one more reason why I think they are a great value. I am looking forward to a tour of the Oxnard facility someday to see how they treat the -05 and up instruments -

Tad
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

I gotta say,there is some interesting stuff being mentioned here,and I could not(would not) doubt any of you fine folks....TAD,you really know what you are talking about,AND alot of it makes good sense.To me,"sensibility" goes hand in hand with being a good consumer."That" many of us need to be in "this" modern world of non stop hype and psychological marketing....

Still,I'm on the fence on many matters,until I "need" to make a careful choice.Then the only way(for me) is educating myself to the matter at hand,and going from there.....Alot of "you" folks have been a blessing to me,in aiding me with my own decisions about "this guitar passion thing"!

  To this day,I STILL am indepted to ALL of you. :smile:,,,Btw, I mean that!!

  Btw,just my two cents........

  I'm still a bit sceptical about the "single luthier" thing,even though I feel many are most likely magnificent builders...but...with a one man operation the possibility of the builder not being around(look at today's economic situation alone)for the longevity of my purchase kinda bothers me.Of course,there is always other folks who can work on an instrument,but I want to be serviced by the guy I originally "paid".Ya know!The "life-time warrantee thing"!!!...Also,I believe the person/company who actually manufactured the instrument will be more into keeping a happy camper.A small yet dedicated Boutique mfgr appeals to me more.Just my own opinion,and no more.Larri(though not at all small(unless compared to a Martin,for ex)still fits this area......AND with all of the negative Martin stuff I've read about,"they" still make some exeptional guitars!!

  I played(just last Sunday) a MAGNIFICENT D-18A,which is easily as good as anything I've ever touched.Not alot of guitars there(maybe 100 at most),but I know "good" when I come into contact with it....Sheeeesh,I'm the guy who chased my wife,all throughout my college years. :winkin:

  Maybe I'm stretching things a bit,but I've seen and experienced horror stories in my many years involved with "high End"(ultra pricey) audio.....Small,wonderfully performing products that became nightmares after a problem arose.Cost-wise and serviceability,and these are small/dedicated companies.

  Just a silly addition to my rant,and of course I realize I am going a bit over board....I noticed a superb article in last season'd Fret Board Journal(a great periodical)on bulider extroadinaire Wayne Henderson(have you seen his asking prices?....yeow)....Apparently the guy is in the Stradavarious class,when making a guitar...but(and here is where a guy like TAD is "not" so far off in his comments)....From my perspective.

  One particular picture shows him(Wayne)literaly holding a stunning OM "body" between his legs,and drilling in the holes(by hand) for the neck assembly.What do I know?Not much,but sheeesh,I find it hard to believe there is not a better way(as in more accurate/guaranteed to be precise).Of course he also "hand carves" each neck,so what do I know?

  OK,now I've exposed myself as knowing little,but you've probably guessed that already. :wink:

  Best to all

Quote from: magictwanger on April 21, 2009, 06:46:52 PM

  One particular picture shows him(Wayne)literaly holding a stunning OM "body" between his legs,and drilling in the holes(by hand) for the neck assembly.What do I know?Not much,but sheeesh,I find it hard to believe there is not a better way(as in more accurate/guaranteed to be precise).Of course he also "hand carves" each neck,so what do I know?

It sounds like you're describing him drilling the holes for a bolt on neck, assuming that is the case... That's why it is important to understand the reasons why a certain method or material is better rather than buying into some hype somebody is preaching. You're right when you say there are more precise ways to drill those holes so it might sound nice when someone tells you that guitar manufacturer X has high tech laser guided equipment that will cut the holes in that important neck joint with immaculate precision. But the reality is most people drill those holes a little bigger than the bolts anyway so they will have wiggle room when aligning the neck to the guitar top.

I guess my last sentence aptly applies....  :winkin:

Quote from: magictwanger on April 21, 2009, 06:46:52 PM
  Just a silly addition to my rant,and of course I realize I am going a bit over board....I noticed a superb article in last season'd Fret Board Journal(a great periodical)on bulider extroadinaire Wayne Henderson(have you seen his asking prices?....yeow)....Apparently the guy is in the Stradavarious class,when making a guitar...but(and here is where a guy like TAD is "not" so far off in his comments)....From my perspective.

  One particular picture shows him(Wayne)literaly holding a stunning OM "body" between his legs,and drilling in the holes(by hand) for the neck assembly.What do I know?Not much,but sheeesh,I find it hard to believe there is not a better way(as in more accurate/guaranteed to be precise).Of course he also "hand carves" each neck,so what do I know?

  OK,now I've exposed myself as knowing little,but you've probably guessed that already. :wink:

  Best to all

I believe that picture showed him drilling the hole for access to the truss rod...
Ron


Quote from: ronmac on April 22, 2009, 06:21:58 AM
I believe that picture showed him drilling the hole for access to the truss rod...

well then basically the same idea applies.

   Jeremy, like your new look. Been working out or just have a new style of guitar you invented?
'11 Martin OM18V Engelmann Custom
'11 Martin D-18 Adirondack Custom
'12 Martin MFG OM-35 Custom
'07 Larrivee OOO-60(Trinity Guitars)
'13 Larrivee OM-03 "Exotic"RW Custom(Oxnard C.S.)
'10 L.Canteri OO1JP Custom(IS/IT.WALNUT)


So it seems I have come to doubt, all that I once held as true

Quote from: BluesMan1 on April 22, 2009, 02:15:10 PM
   Jeremy, like your new look. Been working out or just have a new style of guitar you invented?

I was born looking like that.

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