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Author Topic: Yes, it's another 12 string question...  (Read 1027 times)
strawintogold
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« on: January 25, 2009, 11:01:10 PM »

OK, so I have my LV 03 12 (thanks Larry!) which is a pretty thing indeed. Going to replace the Pings with anything else. Eventually. Have the PG removed, bone saddle installed, new strings.

Anyhow, I looked all over but couldn't find if Larrivee has a double truss rod or not. The info they provide on the site is minimal and my instructor got me all paranoid because he says a lot of 12'vers last a few years and then sort of slowly double up on themselves.

When playing, I'm thinking the general idea for newbies, that is, it to pluck the 'regular strings and the accompanying ones ring out incidentally?
It's definitely a differant type of animal. I will have might callouses.

holly
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Michael T
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 12:16:56 AM »

Holly, 12ers do take different techniques, as you become more familiar with it there are all kinds of things to consider. 1st they have been around for a long time and many if not most are set up a bit higher to produce lots of volume and let the strings bang together to get the jangle going that many associate with them. That in itself can produce a style of play that emphasize it, a bit heavier attack etc.

Then there are the lowered tunings that lessen the tension a bit and produce more of a drone, or, growl. Basically less high pitched banging together and more pronounced notes on the octaves.

Those who play a lot also gain an appreciation for emphasis in attack based on angle etc. some can play the octave separate from the standard course or vice versa. Reversing string courses or alternating the strum pattern has a similar effect in as much as it alters the attack on the octave verse the standard course.

There are more differing set ups becoming available too. Taylor developed a compensated saddle to level the top of the strings on their T5-12 electric/acoustic hybrid and are working on something similar for the R-Taylor line. With straight acoustics there is the issue of optimal string height that requires the nut to be compensated somewhat also (in line with the saddle) to preserve intonation and will likely require lowering the action which will limit the "jangle" effect a bit and could affect volume to some extent. Much harder to mass produce as opposed as an electric action set up like the T5 whose nut can be of a lesser concern related to intonation and optimal string height related to volume.

I had Jim Holler do such a hand carved set up on my L05-12 and I am quite pleased. I wanted to have access to both octaves in both direction of attack. I also wanted to reach the octave finger style with the subtleties and nuances (emotion) employed for  a 6 string. I had a T5-12 and got really spoiled in being able to reach both courses easily. The result was more of an organ type of blend to the chords verses that of a harpsichord (way less jangle, more warmth) and it is very easy to fully fret cleanly and clearly (no need to fret the standard course harder to make contact with the octave on the fret). I play in standard 440 so I don't know how much growl would be lost by this in down tuning. It plays pretty much like my 6 string except with the fullness of an orchestra in a box. Oh I also get to wear 2 full string imprints on my calluses.

I am going to stay with my Pings until they give me an issue (I am going to change buttons though, just cause I can), they are a 1:18 mission and seem to be very accurate and hold very well, the ones on my DV-09 worked well for over 4 years before I noticed and slack to speak of.

Here's a little Travis-finger style combo (solo arrangement) you can hear the octaves as clear as when they would be strummed.
http://media.putfile.com/Cvr-Carefree-Highway-48

And here's my cross picked/strummed solo version of another oldie.
http://media.putfile.com/Cvr-Old-Man-87

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 12:28:48 AM »

Congratulations and welcome to the 12 string club.

Many Guild 12 strings have double truss rods but Larrivees have a single adjustable truss rod that uses the same wrench as the other models. My parlor came with the exact same wrench. If you have an inspection mirror, you can see the hole with the hex nut right above the S/N and model stamp in the neck block. Have a qualified guitar tech show you how to adjust it.

The concern about 12 string necks generally applies to some inexpensive 12 strings and older models but you shouldn't have any trouble with your Larrivee. Do not string it up with medium gauge strings though since it is set up for light gauge only. I have had mine for three years and it hasn't needed any adjustments since Jim Holler set it up in February 2006. He installed a bone saddle and I Beam Pickup which only required one small non visible hole to be drilled and the end pin. The guitar came from the factory with the stock pickguard which some people think is too thick but it doesn't bother me. I saw the pickguard on your other post that looks like you could land a small plane on it. Jim is checking on Schallers for me to see if they need to be re- drilled. I checked on Stewmac and I am going to bite the bullet and put gold or gold with black knobs on to highlight the all mahogany body.

Whether you are strumming or finger picking you hit both strings together and yes you will have mighty calluses.

P.S. Depending on the age of the guitar, you may want to think about the pick guard removal unless you are going to replace it with another since the finish may be a different color if it's been on the guitar for a while. I had Jim remove the clear pickguard from my parlor soon after I bought it and in the right light I can tell where it was but most other people can't without looking.
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 12:57:26 AM »

I have a guy http://artisanguitarrepair.com/woodpickguards.com/Ordering_acoustics.htm who makes nice wooden ones. See those two on the bottom? I had him alter a design he had to make that for my S.O.  The grain was a bit off which made him unhappy, so he redid it at no cost and it's being put on as we speak.  It was my mistake, so I thought that was pretty awesome. They are realllly nice.

What kind of buttons fit the Pings?

It only took me an hour to change the strings and I only poked a hole in one finger this time.  It still looks a little wrong, but I did it just as it came and it came with the Cleartones.

I'm a little confused about set up bit I'm lucky in that I can have a chat with my shop and get that resolved.

holly
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 04:26:55 AM »

First things first,replace your teacher as he doesn't know what he talking about.The ping tuners are just fine and as the owner of several Larrivee 12 strings and other Larrivee's for several years now and that I'm also a repairperson if you don't need to don't replace them.I hope the wood guard isn't too heavy as it may affect the tone.If you feel the need to replace the buttons made out of wood or are molded{you can see the casting seem} look for the ones with the metal shaft.




 nice guitar
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 05:09:57 AM »

I haven't had any problems with the stock tuner that came with the guitar and haven't had any reason to change them.  They keep tune for AGES, don't slip and look pretty good in my opinion.  I could see someone changing them if they liked the look of another brand's tuners or had issues with them keeping the guitar in tune, but that hasn't been the case with me yet.

Nice guitar you got yourself there!  You can add so many flavors to a song by hitting certain strings and missing others.  I sometimes get lost playing a simple melody different ways and 'mistakes' can open a lot of different doors that you haven't thought about previously.  Enjoy it and keep pickin'

John
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strawintogold
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 12:54:00 PM »

First things first,replace your teacher as he doesn't know what he talking about.The ping tuners are just fine and as the owner of several Larrivee 12 strings and other Larrivee's for several years now and that I'm also a repairperson if you don't need to don't replace them.I hope the wood guard isn't too heavy as it may affect the tone.If you feel the need to replace the buttons made out of wood or are molded{you can see the casting seem} look for the ones with the metal shaft.




 nice guitar

Um, no. Actually he is right in regard to some 12 strings. It's not like he's intimate with the Larrivee brand although he is the one that highly recommended it to me and in doing research there is a shared experience that some 12 strings last about four or five years. In fact he gave me a list of what to look for when buying a used guitar, etc. I know your impassioned but that's a bit over the top. I think you'd agree if you sat down and talked about anything related to music with the man.

The PG is much thinner than the stock, it's laminate thickness and I can't see how it would affect tone, I'd think less so than the thicker plastic.

I can't stand the Pings. Do they work, sure, most of the time. But they feel and look cheap to me and I'm not a fan of shiny. If they were black I'd not be so adamant, I'd imagine. Mine are hit and miss. When i replaced them with Schallers the difference was pretty remarkable. Not so much turning turning, turning back and forth and felt much nicer.

I'm very particular about guitars, I don't like gloss, i don't like PG and I don't like shiny. Nothing wrong with any of those things it's a personal aesthetic.

holly
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strawintogold
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 12:57:35 PM »

I haven't had any problems with the stock tuner that came with the guitar and haven't had any reason to change them.  They keep tune for AGES, don't slip and look pretty good in my opinion.  I could see someone changing them if they liked the look of another brand's tuners or had issues with them keeping the guitar in tune, but that hasn't been the case with me yet.

Nice guitar you got yourself there!  You can add so many flavors to a song by hitting certain strings and missing others.  I sometimes get lost playing a simple melody different ways and 'mistakes' can open a lot of different doors that you haven't thought about previously.  Enjoy it and keep pickin'

John

It certainly is different. The rest stroke in particular. I can see how someone could shred a finger trying to hook two strings,lol.  I haven't even put a opick near it since i suck with those with a six string. I'm finding simply (ha) making the rest stroke a bit wider but keeping it relaxed works pretty well. I'll post a pic once it's all done.

holly
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 02:13:42 PM »

My whole hearted apology.
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 02:39:43 PM »

Holly--

What strings did you decide to go with?

        DAVE
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 03:17:08 PM »

My whole hearted apology.

Oh, none needed. I know how passionate you are about this stuff. It's that passion that makes me trust people like you to work on my guitars in the first place.

holly
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 03:19:15 PM »

Holly--

What strings did you decide to go with?

        DAVE

I went with D' Addario because that's what the shop had,lol. i als didn't want to spend much since it's going to get fiddled with. I broke the high E and of course, the G. Why is it a given that newbies will break that string as oppossed to any other? I can tell you it sounded much better than the year old Cleartones, no shocker there.

I requires a lot of precision, definalty something to keep me motivated.

holly
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 05:19:01 PM »

I have a D-09 12, it was set-up at the Oxnard shop where I picked it up. (back when they were doing that).
I have never had it touched again, I use either Elixr or D'add lights. The guitar stays in tune remarkably well.
I take this as a sign of a very stable neck. I don't think there is cause for concern on a Larrivee neck. In my opion a double truss rod would just make the guitar heavier.
It plays like a dream and much easier than some 6's I have played.
My callouses seem to handle the 12 well, in fact I believe it might be easier on the finger to play a 12 since the strings are spread over a slightly larger area.
I think it does take a little more hand strength to grab a chord cleanly though.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 06:29:10 PM »

My D-03-12 is 10+ years old and no neck problems. I keep light gauge strings on it, usually Elixirs. It holds its tune well with the factory standard tuners although these may be pre-Pings. They do have the logo.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 11:56:18 PM »

Holly: The small G on D'Addario light gauge is only .008 compared with the high E at .010 gauge so it pays to keep a few extras of each lying around.

Also, try the Jim Dunlop nylon flatpick (.46 mm) for strumming on your 12 string. It gives a nice percussive effect contrary to what the naysayers here will tell you and it's easier on your right hand and gives you a break from finger picking.
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 01:19:39 AM »


Also, try the Jim Dunlop nylon flatpick (.46 mm) for strumming on your 12 string.

 +1 on the Dunlop .46mm, that was always my favorite pick for strumming my twelve.
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 03:32:09 AM »

If your high "E" is a .010 you might want to try using this gauge for you octive "G".
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