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Author Topic: Fish glue, Hide glue explained  (Read 4355 times)
Zohn
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« on: December 27, 2008, 09:42:41 AM »

  Hi all!!
I thought it was appropriate to list these sources as a result of speculation around the history, application, and properties of animal glues for those who are interested - there were even "Rabbit glue" and "Hoof glue"!!
It seems Fish glue's major desirable property is that it's highly moisture resistant.

http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/bpg/annual/v19/bp19-29.html  - this link comes with some piano music

http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/bpg/annual/v19/bp19-29.html

"How is fish glue made? The process that yields the highest quality is to take swim bladders from freshwater fish, soak them into hot water to extract the protein substance, and then boil the resultant soup for a prolonged period. If sufficient quantities of swim bladders cannot be obtained, it is also possible to make hide glue by boiling animal skins. This latter method however results in a glue of inferior quality, because it absorbs moisture, whereas glue made from ichthyic air bladders is highly moisture-resistant."  - extract from an article on the construction of the classic Mongolian Bow  - http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

Enjoy!! 



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fongie
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2008, 11:01:57 AM »

G'day Zohn, this is very interesting indeed, now where can I purchase these glues, especially the fish glue? I'm very interested.
Cheers
Fongie
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Zohn
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2008, 11:57:01 AM »

G'day Zohn, this is very interesting indeed, now where can I purchase these glues, especially the fish glue? I'm very interested.
Cheers
Fongie
Fish glue: I have no Idea, I know you can get the Hide glue from http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Wood_glue.html and http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/Secondproducthead.asp?CategoryName=Adhesives
Another option which I tried out to glue a bridge once, and it works like a charm!!, is ordinary household gelatin. See this article
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/TipsTricks/KitchenGlue/kitchenglue.html  and another one on hide glue.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Glue/UseHideGlue/usehideglue2.html

I'll rather not talk cricket yet... blush
Cheers mate
 
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bearsville0
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2008, 02:03:12 PM »

My wife's a painter and rabbit skin glue is used to size or prepare canvas prior to priming it. It pulls the canvas tight as a drum. You can get those glues from any art supply store. It has to be boiled up and melted. Fun stuff.

I like the idea of recycling body parts into soap and glue. Gives meaning to the phrase "I'm old enough to be thinking about heading off to the glue factory."
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 02:40:42 PM »

G'day Zohn, this is very interesting indeed, now where can I purchase these glues, especially the fish glue? I'm very interested.
Cheers
Fongie

Lee Valley sells it.

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Zohn
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 03:30:18 PM »

Lee Valley sells it.


Is there a URL please? Neither myself or Fongie stay in the US.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2008, 04:51:01 PM »

http://www.leevalley.com
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strawintogold
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WWW

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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 06:27:53 PM »

Hey, if you get some fish bladder glue down there, maybe you can get the PETA girls to come and take off all their clothes to protest. Because nothing makes a serious statement like a bikini chick with a fish bladder sign.

I'm still convinced PETA outsources. Because I've yet to see an angry, rectangularly spectacled, tiny t shirt wearing vegan that could pull off a bikini. Maybe Hooter girls off shift? Of course, they might smell like hot wings.

holly
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 08:57:32 PM »

Zohn,when will you be finished in obtaining your Phd? :winkin:Very impressive stuff!..Btw,how was the birthday party?

  Mark
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fongie
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2008, 09:29:20 PM »

G'day, thanks Matey, I definately will pursue these glues, I'm workin' on a uke project (removing the sound board to repair a hairline fracture) so instead of useing a 2 part apox. resin, I'll try this fish glue. By the way Zohn, I thought you might have been a tab quiet. bigrin bigrin bigrin
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tadol
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2008, 10:13:09 PM »

Keep in mind that all natural protein glues tend to smell (bad), have fairly narrow working limits, and are not generally user friendly. They can also be a bit expensive -

Of course, alot of the fancy epoxies and urethanes can be described the same way, other than maybe the working limits.

Alot of woodworking has been made much easier with polyvinyls and aliphatics and the like. Just because they are cheap and common, doesn't mean they aren't very appropriate for alot of tasks, even in building or repairing instruments -

Tad
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bearsville0
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 11:01:52 PM »

Because nothing makes a serious statement like a bikini chick with a fish bladder sign.

holly

I'll be the judge of that.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 11:36:36 PM »

Keep in mind that all natural protein glues tend to smell (bad), have fairly narrow working limits, and are not generally user friendly. They can also be a bit expensive -

Of course, alot of the fancy epoxies and urethanes can be described the same way, other than maybe the working limits.

Alot of woodworking has been made much easier with polyvinyls and aliphatics and the like. Just because they are cheap and common, doesn't mean they aren't very appropriate for alot of tasks, even in building or repairing instruments -

Tad

 Fish glue has a very long open time and it tacks a lot quicker than titebond. Clean up is a little bit easier with titebond though. Fish glue isn't expensive and hide glue is really cheap. Hide glue is very easy to clean up and some builders say it's generally easier to use. Fish glue smells better than titebond btw.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2008, 12:55:26 AM »


It seems Fish glue's major desirable property is that it's highly moisture resistant.


"How is fish glue made? The process that yields the highest quality is to take swim bladders from freshwater fish, soak them into hot water to extract the protein substance, and then boil the resultant soup for a prolonged period. If sufficient quantities of swim bladders cannot be obtained, it is also possible to make hide glue by boiling animal skins. This latter method however results in a glue of inferior quality, because it absorbs moisture, whereas glue made from ichthyic air bladders is highly moisture-resistant."  - extract from an article on the construction of the classic Mongolian Bow  - http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm


The fish glue luthiers use is not highly moisture resistant. I googled this  "ichthyic" term and the only sites I found it used in conjuction with fish glue deal with archery. The main reason luthiers use fish glue is the very long open time and it dries very hard.

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Zohn
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2008, 05:48:10 AM »

Zohn,when will you be finished in obtaining your Phd? :winkin:Very impressive stuff!..Btw,how was the birthday party?

  Mark
Hi Mark  - you're just too kind my friend... blush
We've been celebrating birthdays since the 30 th of Nov - that of my eldest daughter (now 20), then my other daughter and my Mom on the 22nd Dec, my wife on 24 th , and the Lord on Friday. Coins are few now... - we had the most blessed times though thanks.
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Zohn
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2008, 05:51:11 AM »

By the way Zohn, I thought you might have been a tab quiet. bigrin bigrin bigrin
  What was that Fongie? - you should know South Africans by now mate - no white flags to be found in our kit

BTW - I'm still considering the Forum III, but I've subsequently discovered another great Canadian builder - he makes 12 guits a year, and I'm after one of his 00-models. I'm just waiting for the SA currency to pick up against the US$.
 
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