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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #2200 on: January 11, 2009, 07:57:22 PM »

Daysailer, that was my interpretation of runout. My LV has color variation in both sides of the top but they are consistant no matter what angle you look at it. I agree that GA picture looks like possable runout but without seeing it in person and twisting the guitar around I couldn't say for sure.  

I just thought maybe there was a missunderstanding of what runout was but I see you have the definition inGRAINED.  

Here is a link to some information involving prices for Soundboard wood.
It appears European spruce is more expensive than Adirondack.

     whoops it's 3 PM      
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Roger


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« Reply #2201 on: January 11, 2009, 08:01:48 PM »

  I don't like runout, and I just got an education about it, I thought it was something else.
 I view these pages on a small laptop and never noticed the whole right side is a little darker than the left. I just thought it had a few darker lines on the right.
            I want the best looking top I can get on mine. Just a thought though. or a wish or just a hope.

If you want the best looking top on your's you'd better switch to Mahogany.   

Really though, you have met Jean personally. Just call him up and ask him to put the nicest looking top on your guitar.

  
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« Reply #2202 on: January 11, 2009, 08:16:15 PM »

Daysailer, that was my interpretation of runout. My LV has color variation in both sides of the top but they are consistant no matter what angle you look at it. I agree that GA picture looks like possable runout but without seeing it in person and twisting the guitar around I couldn't say for sure.  

I just thought maybe there was a missunderstanding of what runout was but I see you have the definition inGRAINED.  

Here is a link to some information involving prices for Soundboard wood.
It appears European spruce is more expensive than Adirondack.

     whoops it's 3 PM      
     Thanks Roger, I need to read more and write less it seems.     Danny
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« Reply #2203 on: January 11, 2009, 08:22:31 PM »

I already have a MT 12 Fret Fourm.  Love it....   and no runout as a bouns.

I am just one of 70+ and will take my turn and chances like everyone else.   The whole idea was to keep the costs down.  If all of us called Larrivée and asked for preferencial wood selections, the cost would preclude me and many others from affording an LS, my original 'dream" size and shape from Larrivées cataloge.  

The next step would be whether the number of herribone points was odd or even.  

Music may be about sound, but one of my school band directors used to say, "the audience listens with thier ears and eyes....so look sharp"

ds
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« Reply #2204 on: January 11, 2009, 08:28:31 PM »

   Out of the seven Larrivees I have owned , none ever had run out. I have had a few darker lines in the spruce, but that never bothered me.
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« Reply #2205 on: January 11, 2009, 09:26:37 PM »

My OM-03 has runout for about the bottom 2 inches of the top.  It is the best sounding guitar I have ever played, but it is a shame, because it is a real looker too apart from that.

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Ben
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« Reply #2206 on: January 11, 2009, 09:30:17 PM »

  I just read the short article on runout that Roger had in his post and I guess I still am not totally clear on this. But I do understand that minor runout has no effect on tone. But all runout effects looks. Is that right?
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BenF
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« Reply #2207 on: January 11, 2009, 09:34:20 PM »

There was a great link on here a few months back with diagrams etc.  Basically, its like when you cut the grass in one direction and then the other.  Perfectly quarter sawn wood has the grain running exactly along the length of the top, but when it isn't perfectly quarter sawn there is a slight angle to the grain, which is reversed on the book matched side, like stripes on the grass. Is that right?
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« Reply #2208 on: January 11, 2009, 09:37:28 PM »

There was a great link on here a few months back with diagrams etc.  Basically, its like when you cut the grass in one direction and then the other.  Perfectly quarter sawn wood has the grain running exactly along the length of the top, but when it isn't perfectly quarter sawn there is a slight angle to the grain, which is reversed on the book matched side, like stripes on the grass.
Doesn't it also "run out" before the end of the bout, thus runout?
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« Reply #2209 on: January 11, 2009, 09:38:55 PM »

Doesn't it also "run out" before the end of the bout, thus runout?

That old link explained the name too.  I'm gonna search for it.
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Ben
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« Reply #2210 on: January 11, 2009, 09:43:24 PM »

With photos

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/General/Glossary/Runout/runout.html

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Ben
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« Reply #2211 on: January 11, 2009, 09:46:09 PM »

Thanks Ben, that was fast.

           Here is a quote from that link "If the grain tends to run off the edge, it's called "runout."

 That's what I thought , but the link shows pics and explains this "tricky" term.
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« Reply #2212 on: January 11, 2009, 09:51:52 PM »

Danny, this was actually the link I was looking for, same pics, but the diagrams make it easier to understand.  Originally posted by jeremy3220 a while back when I questioned what causes bear claw, and what cross silking is.

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
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« Reply #2213 on: January 11, 2009, 09:57:15 PM »

Danny, this was actually the link I was looking for, same pics, but the diagrams make it easier to understand.  Originally posted by jeremy3220 a while back when I questioned what causes bear claw, and what cross silking is.

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
I read them both, somehow I knew Jeremy would have something to say on this.
 So other than looks if it's real bad it can cause splits in the wood.
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« Reply #2214 on: January 11, 2009, 10:00:09 PM »

It's real bad on my Fender, but it is indestructable!!!
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Ben
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« Reply #2215 on: January 11, 2009, 11:15:49 PM »

In my experience, what you're ultimately looking for is great 'tap tone' on a top. I would trust that Jean & Co. will select the Forum tops based on that criteria. If you happen to get a great looking top, that's a bonus in my book

Personally a little 'character' to the top has never bothered me, I've owned and played some guitars with gorgeous woods (ala Breedlove) but the tone was not there!!

In a perfect world you'd get both, but lets not forget we're paying just over a grand for these instruments, not $3K 

  ~ Ray ~
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« Reply #2216 on: January 11, 2009, 11:28:47 PM »

Danny, this was actually the link I was looking for, same pics, but the diagrams make it easier to understand.  Originally posted by jeremy3220 a while back when I questioned what causes bear claw, and what cross silking is.

http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html


This is a whole new area for me and after reading through the explanation a few times I'm still not entirely sure I'm getting it. So, the pictures of the guitar top show runout in the area where the surface appears more granular - as in a field of grains - rather than where you just see the vertical grain? In the first guitar picture, it starts a short distance below the low side of the bridge? This makes sense to me based on the pictures above it, and it seems obvious how it could be a serious structural problem.

Mike
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« Reply #2217 on: January 12, 2009, 12:22:19 AM »

   In one of the pics on the link there was a 29 year old git that had run out but no structural problems.
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« Reply #2218 on: January 12, 2009, 02:33:47 AM »

Its kinda funny - you get wood with lots of runout and uneven-ness, put it on the sides and back and you get eye-popping flame, curl, birds-eye, quilting, or figure, and no one worries very much about the "structural" flaws inherent -

Put it on the top, and unless you can call it bearclaw, it's undesirable -

If these tops come from billets that were originally riven, then the amount of "structural" issues that will arise will be almost non-existent. If they were just sawn from logs without regard, I doubt JCL would have given them a second look. I think these will all be fine, and I will judge the quality of my instrument by its voice, and not by its photograph -

Tad
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« Reply #2219 on: January 12, 2009, 11:33:49 AM »

Beautiful guitar audiophil!!!!

Regarding "runout", I have been windowshopping (and regular shopping) for Larrivee's for many years.  Having looked at hundreds and hundreds of gits (some in person, but untold numbers at our favorite online retailers), I have seen quite a few Larrivees with what is being described here as runout - where the sides of the top are different shades.  I almost bought a D-60 that had a BIG difference in the sides.  I was a little concerned about the cosmetics, but in the end it didn't matter that much to me.  However I can see how it could bother someone.  My OM-03R has several cosmetic top flaws that bother me more than the appearance of runout would.  I have learned to live with those, as it does sound great, and I believe JCL has great quality control with respect to structural issues.  I can't wait to see how the IS looks on our gits - it will be interesting.
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