Forum Guitar discussion

Started by Randy_R, November 30, 2008, 07:20:28 PM

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It seems some people think we need to hammer out some final spec to get a price quote, and others think we are waiting for Ricky From Larrivee to get back to Jim.

I thought we are all waiting for a price quote(s) from Larrivee before we set this in stone.  Am I correct in thinking that Larrivee is not waiting for some final spec from us, we are waiting for Larrivee to get back to Jim so that we know how many people want the upcharge with Italian Spruce, etc.

So right now we don't need to do anything until we get the 411 on prices, right???
Scott

RS-2

Quote from: L-fan on December 06, 2008, 11:30:56 AM
It seems some people think we need to hammer out some final spec to get a price quote, and others think we are waiting for Ricky From Larrivee to get back to Jim.

I thought we are all waiting for a price quote(s) from Larrivee before we set this in stone.  Am I correct in thinking that Larrivee is not waiting for some final spec from us, we are waiting for Larrivee to get back to Jim so that we know how many people want the upcharge with Italian Spruce, etc.

So right now we don't need to do anything until we get the 411 on prices, right???

I would say you are correct.
Roger


"Live simply so that others may simply live"

Quote from: bluesman67 on December 06, 2008, 10:37:05 AM
 It got me thinking from the comments that short scale could have a negative effect on the tone....  

I don't think that is correct, in fact, I 've read that some claim short scale produces a sweeter tone. Supposedly one of the advantages of the 12 fret design is movement of the bridge towards the endpin (towards the fatter part of the lower bout). Compared to a 14 fret, standard scale (25.5") guitar, moving to a 12 fret design with standard scale would move the bridge about 1.5" ( the distance represented by the 13th and 14th frets) towards the end pin. If we now shorten the scale to 24.75" (as on the LSV-11), we move the bridge 0.75" back towards the sound hole. So the result for a short scale, 12 fret design is a net shift of the bridge about 0.75" towards the endpin as compared to the location for a 14 fret, standard scale guitar. Now this "analysis " (I use the term loosely!) is only approximate because the width of the 13th and 14th frets for a short scale are a bit smaller then that for a regular scale, but I think I'm close.

The shorter scale will produce a bit less volume do to the lower string tension, but I don't believe it is a significant difference.

Having said all this, I acknowledge I have no guitar design expertise. This is just my way of trying to evaluate the scale options. I welcome comments and corrections.

Al

I just would like to say "don't rush the project". There could be some long time members that may be interested but just haven't had the time to visit. I can tell you that 20 some pages of thread is a project to read though. I would suggest leaving this thread for the ones that have not had a chance to read it, and continue this discussion here. I read somewhere in this thread that there was another one before this, I didn't see that one and don't know what happened to it.
I think when Jim gets back to us he will have a cost for the basic guitar and costs for the upgrades.

:cheers
Roger


"Live simply so that others may simply live"

Quote from: ARK on December 06, 2008, 11:41:27 AM
The shorter scale will produce a bit less volume do to the lower string tension, but I don't believe it is a significant difference.

That lower string tension will lead to even less string tension if you play with lowered tunings....(not sure how significant that will be though). That can be offset with heavier strings if the guitar will tolerate heavier strings.
Larrivee 00-70 
Gibson Advanced Jumbo  - J-185 - J200 Jr.
 National Resophonics  M1 Tricone
 Eastman MD-904 - DGM-1

Agreed - until we get some idea of pricing, its going to be hard for a number of us to commit to the project, and if it is on the higher side, I'd be concerned that some of the pre-committed may suddenly have second thoughts.

That said - I think we should keep some perspective and keep in mind that the idea of the Forum putting together a special instrument every, oh, 2-3 years?, just for sale to Forum members seems like an achievable goal. Last runs emphasized mahogany - I think it would be nice if this one emphasized a different material.  Maybe in 2 years the economy would be much better, and we could put together a special SD, or something that emphasizes some fancy inlay or appointments? or maybe an electric or a mandolin or a bass or ??? If we can get JCL in tune with this project, maybe he can keep that in the back of his mind when he is out buying materials ( Hmmm, that log is incredible, but I can only get 30 guitars, out if it - wonder if the Forum would be interested? )

But right now, the economy is not good, and alot of Forum members are going to have to weigh this expense carefully, and we should strive to keep this instrument, while unique and special, very affordable. We REALLY need to wait until the factory gives us some feedback about all this before we make any more assumptions about what can or can't be done, and what various options might cost.

Also - I think we need to be careful about posting what would be "deal-breakers" for various people. It is good to express preferences, but to start saying that "if it ends up such-and-such I'm out" is not productive, since those same options may be exactly what appeal to others. And remember - the goal is simple. Simple to choose ( yes or no, minimal options ), simple to afford, and simple to organize/pay for/distribute.

Just my 2c  -   Tad
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

You can add another name to the $ list, mine.  As voted in the poll, my preference is for RW/Ital/12fret. It's not an LS classical, but it will still be special and maybe different enough from my OM-10.  What headstock logo is preferred?  I prefer the JCL logo, like on this JCL Reissue.  It's different, classy, and not overly ornate.  For the 12th marker, I like either the three dots or maybe a small Roman numeral III for instant visual confirmation that it is a Forum III.
:thumb

Tim
2000 Larrivée OM-10
2007 Larrivée P-09 QM (Quilted Maple)
2008 Pavan TP-30 (RW/Cedar)

Quote from: tadol on December 06, 2008, 12:04:53 PM
Agreed - until we get some idea of pricing, its going to be hard for a number of us to commit to the project, and if it is on the higher side, I'd be concerned that some of the pre-committed may suddenly have second thoughts.

That said - I think we should keep some perspective and keep in mind that the idea of the Forum putting together a special instrument every, oh, 2-3 years?, just for sale to Forum members seems like an achievable goal. Last runs emphasized mahogany - I think it would be nice if this one emphasized a different material.  Maybe in 2 years the economy would be much better, and we could put together a special SD, or something that emphasizes some fancy inlay or appointments? or maybe an electric or a mandolin or a bass or ??? If we can get JCL in tune with this project, maybe he can keep that in the back of his mind when he is out buying materials ( Hmmm, that log is incredible, but I can only get 30 guitars, out if it - wonder if the Forum would be interested? )

But right now, the economy is not good, and alot of Forum members are going to have to weigh this expense carefully, and we should strive to keep this instrument, while unique and special, very affordable. We REALLY need to wait until the factory gives us some feedback about all this before we make any more assumptions about what can or can't be done, and what various options might cost.

Also - I think we need to be careful about posting what would be "deal-breakers" for various people. It is good to express preferences, but to start saying that "if it ends up such-and-such I'm out" is not productive, since those same options may be exactly what appeal to others. And remember - the goal is simple. Simple to choose ( yes or no, minimal options ), simple to afford, and simple to organize/pay for/distribute.

Just my 2c  -   Tad

I think this is exactly what Ricky has achieved.  If I understand correctly, we are waiting for a cost for the basic spec that has been selected by the majority, and then we can see the exact number.  10 is not many, we probably have 5 that are in regardless.  If some drop out I think others will join in who have been waiting for a conclusion on specs without getting too heavily involved.
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

Quote from: TimButterfield on December 06, 2008, 12:11:11 PM
You can add another name to the $ list, mine.  As voted in the poll, my preference is for RW/Ital/12fret. It's not an LS classical, but it will still be special and maybe different enough from my OM-10.  What headstock logo is preferred?  I prefer the JCL logo, like on this JCL Reissue.  It's different, classy, and not overly ornate.  For the 12th marker, I like either the three dots or maybe a small Roman numeral III for instant visual confirmation that it is a Forum III.
:thumb

Tim

Good man Tim!! :thumbsup
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

Friends - stop the madness.   If you must have 25 options, then you should consider commissioning a luthier.  :)  JCL is being very generous.  Let's not spoil it.

We're gettin old Tad! Thinking in terms of years which pass like minutes now. But yea, in a couple years a forum Mando might be great. See if college fund comes back for youngest son, retirement and maybe even what job I have after our buyout deal is completed. We'll talk about it more in a couple minutes ! :bgrin:
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: LawDogStrgsAttach on December 06, 2008, 12:15:11 PM
Friends - stop the madness.   If you must have 25 options, then you should consider commissioning a luthier.  :)  JCL is being very generous.  Let's not spoil it.

The thread has gone out of control a bit, but from my perspective we have a std guitar, IS top, EIRW B&S, short scale LS-03 (4" depth), full stop.  The only requests on top of that are no abalone, but maybe not the 03 std rosette, and a three dot/III 12th fret inlay (no other fretboard markers).  I don't think that is an unreasonable ask.
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

BenF
Exactly.    In fact if that is the final spec and the price is not totally out of reach they can start building my lefty right now.    full stop.  :laughin:


tuffythepug

Friends,

Sorry for making posts that led this thread out of control

Jeff
Jeffrey


Quote from: es-335 on December 06, 2008, 12:46:22 PM
Friends,

Sorry for making posts that led this thread to out of control

Jeff

Everybody has done it at some point on this thread, myself included.  We would never have got this far if people didn't speak out.
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

Quote from: Mr_LV19E on December 06, 2008, 11:48:53 AM
I just would like to say "don't rush the project". There could be some long time members that may be interested but just haven't had the time to visit. I can tell you that 20 some pages of thread is a project to read though. I would suggest leaving this thread for the ones that have not had a chance to read it, and continue this discussion here. I read somewhere in this thread that there was another one before this, I didn't see that one and don't know what happened to it.
I think when Jim gets back to us he will have a cost for the basic guitar and costs for the upgrades.

:cheers
Randy posted a link to the original thread on the first post. And made this a sticky at the top so everyone can see it.   Roger we have put a lot of energy in this to this point with the view of other members seeing it and getting as many involved as possible. But there does come a moment when you must "pull the trigger".

Quote from: BenF on December 06, 2008, 12:23:21 PM
The thread has gone out of control a bit, but from my perspective we have a std guitar, IS top, EIRW B&S, short scale LS-03 (4" depth), full stop.  The only requests on top of that are no abalone, but maybe not the 03 std rosette, and a three dot/III 12th fret inlay (no other fretboard markers).  I don't think that is an unreasonable ask.

Not unreasonable - but the problem is that I thought we have been talking 12 fret all along, and you seem to be assuming Standard (14 fret). We want Italian Spruce, even though we have no idea if they will let us use it, or if there would be an upcharge. I don't have a problem with abalone, but would with a std 03 rosette on this special guitar. I don't understand the issue with microdot fret markers - I find them very useful when I am running around up there, otherwise I tend to get lost.

Again - I hope we can write a simple spec for the factory to quote, and with the pricing matrix we can start taking orders and collecting deposits. If that has been done, I'm sorry to bring it up, but I have yet to see the exact details and options that have been requested, nor have I seen any feedback from the factory about what they are willing to do/not do/consider. Once that spec is posted, people ( myself included ) will have to decide if it is the instrument they are interested in - not everyone will be happy, thats life. I am willing to be very flexible to accomodate this project, but I also will not buy something that I won't enjoy, and I don't want one or two strong opinions to unduly influence others who would prefer something else, but feel like they are "going along" with the group - too often I find it isn't really the group, but the one or two loudest.

If this has all been posted in another thread, then again, I apologize. There seems to be alot going on about this, and I am having trouble keeping up with the many threads and opinions. But I've seen too many problems in business when you gloss over the details and "assume" everyone is agreeing on the same thing. I'm too excited and hopeful about this project to not try to make sure it goes as well as I can help it -

But I have a store to go prep and prime - then back home, scrape the caulk and primer out from under the nails, and try to get a little wine and guitar time in tonight - Catch up with all this in another 6 or 7 pages -  :cheers

Tad
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

Quote from: tadol on December 06, 2008, 01:25:56 PM
try to get a little wine and guitar time in tonight

Tad

Tad, Wine and guitar.. sounds terrific. what a great idea..  :thumb

I know what I am doing tonight :nanadance


Jeffrey


Tadol, it is a 12 fret we are going for, that is about the only unanimous decision, hence why I forgot to write it down again.  JCL has agreed to the Italian Spruce, provided we nail the spec for B&S to one option only.  Yesterday I tried my very best to get individual's ideal specifications without disclosing them to the group discussion. Some posted, some PM'd me, then I was accused of hiding information, so I published the results.  There was already a clear trend to what we have established now as the ideal spec.  Bluesman67 also ran a poll on materials, which resulted in the same overwealming majority for EIRW/IS LS-03 12 fret.  The scale length was the only unresolved issue, and I think more people in the std scale camp were prepared to compromise on this, so we have set short scale as the chosen length, again somehting that JCL agreed was doable, at an upcharge.

I fail to see any way we could have been much more democratic about this without risking never getting to a conclusion.

Ben
Ben
2009 FIII LS-03RHB #5

http://www.youtube.com/user/1978BenF

I don't think this is getting out of hand.  To the contrary, I am happy there's so much interest.  It wouldn't surprise me if at least 20 were ordered, double the minimum 10.  There is a lot of talk and excitement and it's tough keeping up, but it's just talk.  I started a poll because we needed to form a concensus and understand if we could agree on a minimum order, and it served that purpose.  The poll options were clear, there were 5 wood combos to choose from.  The only thing really understood at this point is that the masses want:
LS-03RW
Italian
12-fret

Maybe the Italian will be more, but I find it hard to believe that it was even worth purchasing for JCL if the markup was significantly more, after all sitka is a great sound board too...just not "special".  Additionally, it seems that just about everyone knows they don't want abalone.

We don't know the price of that but we will soon enough for the Italian with special wood with qualities similar to Adirondack.  That's really all we know, we now have focus.  All the other options are just talk.  I hesitate to throw the short-scale option in there because:
1.  The cost I think will be significant due to changes in the manufacturing process that I know nothing about.
2.  It would be nice to hear from Jim Holler or UncleRob or someone who can give us the skinny on the tonal effects (including how it affects the volume gains of the 12-fret design) and benefits of short-scale vs. long-scale.
bluesman67
HOGTOP CHARLOTTE

www.reverbnation.com/hogtopcharlotte

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