Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: using 3rd's and beyond (from "tips)  (Read 12867 times)
ryler
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1525




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2008, 05:06:46 PM »

Matt,

That was a beautiful sounding progression you posted above.  I do believe I'm getting it as far as the relationship of the chord forms to their component building blocks.

Last night as I was (not) falling asleep, I was thinking about the A form as it compares to the D form, and it dawned on me that the D form (on the high 3 strings) is just the same as the A form (on the 2,3, and 4 strings) except that it takes into account the b string being tuned  a third instead of a fourth, therefore the major triad form has to have the root moved up one fret to keep the relationship the same.  Why does this matter?  Well, it felt a little Eureka-ish in that every relationship of one chord to the next that you can make seems to help with mental accessibility to them, if you know what I mean, which, in turn, helps with execution on the fly.

You asked us to compare the G6 to the Em as you voiced it, and that would be G6 = G,D,B and E whereas Em = E, G and B--three out of the four notes of the G6 chord.  So in your example, if you move your 1st finger to the 3rd fret, 2nd string and leave the first string an open E...voila, Em converts to G6.  Correct me if I got it wrong.

Yeah, I'm diggin your lessons.  Pretty good for a 98 year old hairless woman.
Logged
lw216316
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2441




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2008, 06:11:30 PM »

I had the day off -
spend most all of it so far reading, studying and printing this thread.
Next I will go back and do the same for the ' TIPS ' post - that I haven't read yet.

Matt, I do hereby declare this to be ' Guitar Music Theory for Dummies ' by Matt.

The ' Dummy ' books are actual very good in my experience. ...
down to earth, practical, written in easy to understand terms ..
and actually HELP the people who read them   bigrin
...just like your posts Matt.   +1

So many people who write books do so to impress peers or management and to make money...
and don't have a clue how to actually TEACH.  (that's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it  bigrin  )

When you have time, teach us dummies some more, ok ?

 

- Larry
Logged

PLAY SONG , LIVE LONG !

Larrivee OOO-60 - Lady Rose
Pavan TP-30 classical - nylon
Takamine 132s classical -nylon
former Larrivees  L-03R  SD-50
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2008, 12:30:05 AM »

Last night as I was (not) falling asleep, I was thinking about the A form as it compares to the D form, and it dawned on me that the D form (on the high 3 strings) is just the same as the A form (on the 2,3, and 4 strings) except that it takes into account the b string being tuned  a third instead of a fourth, therefore the major triad form has to have the root moved up one fret to keep the relationship the same.  Why does this matter?  Well, it felt a little Eureka-ish in that every relationship of one chord to the next that you can make seems to help with mental accessibility to them, if you know what I mean, which, in turn, helps with execution on the fly.

You asked us to compare the G6 to the Em as you voiced it, and that would be G6 = G,D,B and E whereas Em = E, G and B--three out of the four notes of the G6 chord.  So in your example, if you move your 1st finger to the 3rd fret, 2nd string and leave the first string an open E...voila, Em converts to G6.  Correct me if I got it wrong.

Yeah, I'm diggin your lessons.  Pretty good for a 98 year old hairless woman.
Ryler I'm just tickled pink (That's what old ladies say) that you're gettin into this and it seems
your picking it right up. Way to go! As for your first point, remember the open E is really the same chord
shape as well. The FRETTED notes of open E-A and D from bass to treble all go 5-1-3 scale wise. I think you got the why that is important part but to be sure..... you can do the same things to any of the chords
and get the same result. Raising the highest FRETTED note of any of them (the 3rd) will give you a 4th or suspended chord. Lowering the middle fretted note 1 fret will give you a Major 7th. Lower it 2 frets
a dominent 7th ect. So if you understand one of these chords you understand them all! The relationships
of other UNFRETTED notes often remain the same as well. I say often because like on the D chord your adjacent treble side note fell off the side of the fretboard.
 As far as the G6 yea thats basically it. I think there's something else I want to add to that, but I want to wait til I get home with guitar in hand. Like I said, I'm getting something out of this too. It's not like I can visualize every chord form all over the neck in my head, yet. I think I know what I want to say but want to be sure. This helps me learn stuff as I think about it, and helps concrete up what I know already.

Larry thanks, and actually I talked to the teacher who one day showed me 3rd's off the D chord and got me started on this whole thing. I didn't take lessons by the way he just showed me those as double stops one day when giving him some cd's and I painfully dug the rest out.  Anyway we're talking about maybe writing a book! I'm gonna show him this stuff.
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
lw216316
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2441




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2008, 02:14:56 AM »

Quote
  if you understand one of these chords you understand them all! 

YES ! - that is the value of learning the theory !
You learn a general principle that can be applied in other situations !

A beginner in a garage band who learns ' Louie, Louie' in E
is a one song wonder -
ask him to now play it in D and he has to start all over.

If he learns the theory then he can play it in any key and make use of what he has already learned.

Show a guy how to play one song in one key and that's all he has
...teach him HOW / WHY to play the song and you give him much more !

Its like the old saying,
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a person to fisn and you feed him for a lifetime.

If you use my idea for the book title "Guitar Music Theory for Dummies"
do I get royalties ?
....or a free book and CD and my name mentioned in the book credits ?   bigrin

- Larry
Logged

PLAY SONG , LIVE LONG !

Larrivee OOO-60 - Lady Rose
Pavan TP-30 classical - nylon
Takamine 132s classical -nylon
former Larrivees  L-03R  SD-50
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2008, 03:17:35 AM »

I think the "for dummies" things already taken. There seems to be one for every subject under the sun.
There's probably even one for  "how to be a dummy for dummy's" But if that's the case and your learn to be a dummy real good,
ie an educated dummy. Are you even still a dummy?  See what my head has to deal with?   But I do have a name in mind.
Any way real quick to finish my thought about G6 and Em..............
The rest of the story is that when you play that Em, you could also think of it as a G6 without the 5th. Depending on the context the 5th might not be needed. That particular shape is very close to how you make a G6 out of the Barred F shape on 3rd fret, (G)To be honest I'm not sure when you would want to do that, but I'm sure there's a time when it could come in handy as far as positioning of fingers. Like when it'd be easier to transition into an Em than it would a full G6. I guess another example of when it could be handy is say there's a song book that calls for G6 and your working out your own arrangement perhaps up the neck. You know where an Em is in the area you want to be in. You know you can turn that into a G 6th easily.  Let me tell you how this stuff can work. I just went to search for something like I was just talking about. Took an Em chord up the neck and turned it into a G6. I found a really good chord that's new to me. It was missing a note though so I added the missing note, the important third. I end up with a chord the is the same as a minor 7th.  So now I realize that a 6th's chord relitive minor played as a minor 7th is exactly the same chord. OK damx it I'll make a diagram. lets move it down home to familier territory. Think regular old open Am chord.

1/....................3.........3.................................................................
2/..........1.........1........1............................1.................................     Am is the relitive 6th of C
3/..........2.........2........2............................2.....................................
4/..........2.........2........2............................2......................................
5/.............................. .............................3..................................
6/...............................................................................................
         Am        Am7     C6                     C6 usually shown in books.

Am 1 b3 5       Am7  1  b3  5  b7        C6  1  3  5  6
      A C  E                A  C   E  G               C  E  G  A
Same notes used for Am7 as for C6. I wonder why they never show that shape as a C6??NOTE: This seems so obvious it makes me wonder if I'm missing something. Somebody want to double check me til I get a chance to review again?)  They alway show like I'll stick at end.
That is even missing the 5th isn't it? Whatever.
That may just be a theoretical exersise which in itself wouldn't be bad, or it could truely come in handy in practical
in some way.  As I'm sitting here dinkin on my guitar I'm finding finding some really good stuff. I'm mean right now.
Practical too. having to do with getting movement out of minor chords. But I'm beat. It's trying to become midnight.
When you start playing with these thing as they start to make sense, you can find some neat stuff. I'm learning enough
thinking about this stuff to think I might be a real boy yet before I die.



         
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2008, 01:44:18 PM »

I think I want to do this next. Ryler had her moment of ah ha that open E-A-D are really the same,
just moved over a string (a fourth higher) and compensating for wierd 2nd string (B).
 Let's look at those chord forms in the manner I was explaining, that is how the shapes will change in the same way to yield same type of chord. Reread the part of why this is important in previous post.
The we'll scoot those forms up the neck. This is basic but to be sure everybody understands.......
When you go up the neck, you can't take the nut with you (actually you can, it's called a capo but that still limits you) So those notes on the nut have to be taken into consideration as well. Maybe we'll end up recognizing up the neck chords in a visual manner. We end up figuring
 out or seeing the chords up the neck in two ways. 1st understanding thier construction starting with
know the 3rd's. Second, just seeing them as the familier open chords by sight. When we do this
we need to take another shape into consideration because it is used up the neck so much.
That is the open C chord shape. It lends itself well for 9th's 11'th '13's because those notes end up being stacked on the higher treble strings usually a better place to capture flavor of chord than
having to stick them in the bass somewhere. I'll make a couple comments then suggest you get a head start on the C shape on your own.
 Make a regular open C7 chord by placing pinky on 3rd string, third fret. That note is B or the flatted 7th of a C chord. If you add the 2nd string 3rd fret, you've made it a 9th chord. See whow the extensions are going to end up piling on top? Also Lower the 7th one fret (have to rearrange fingers)
That makes 6th chord. Lower it again and you have Aug (raised 5th)
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
lw216316
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2441




Ignore
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2008, 02:12:53 PM »

I see similarites between learning chords, positions, inversions, variations
AND
learning to TYPE.

When I first learned to type it was ONE character at a time
AND
I had to really think about - ok, this finger goes here to make that character.

That is like learning to make the C note in a C chord.

Then I learned to put charaters together into WORDS.
At that point I was typing WORDS rather than each individual letter.
I was thinking in terms of WORDS, not individual letters.

With my guitar, I learned to think in terms of chords rather than individual notes.
At first it was, let's see, to make a C chord, my index finger goes here and my middle finger goes here....etc.
After a while, I did not think in those terms .
When I played a C chord I thought in terms of a chord - not individual notes.

In typing, after a while, I learned to type PHRASES rather than just words.
I could think in terms of phrases.

I think the same is true with guitar - after a while you learn to think in terms of phrases (several chords together).

That is as far as I've gotten with it
BUT
I suspect better guitarist think in terms even beyond phrases !
A jazz guitarist is probably thinking several phrases or more ahead.

To a beginner, that would seem impossible.
Of course, talent is involved, but I think it also is a matter of learning the basics first and building on that one level at a time.
- no matter how long it takes !

I once gave up playing the guitar because of the F chord.
Now the F chord is just another chord to me.
So who knows what is possible if you just stick with it and don't give up 

- Larry
Logged

PLAY SONG , LIVE LONG !

Larrivee OOO-60 - Lady Rose
Pavan TP-30 classical - nylon
Takamine 132s classical -nylon
former Larrivees  L-03R  SD-50
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2008, 03:52:23 PM »

I see similarites between learning chords, positions, inversions, variations
AND
learning to TYPE.

When I first learned to type it was ONE character at a time
AND
I had to really think about - ok, this finger goes here to make that character.
.
Then I learned to put charaters together into WORDS.
At that point I was typing WORDS rather than each individual letter.
I was thinking in terms of WORDS, not individual letters.

- Larry
Great. Can I call you and you type while I talk?
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
PJH
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2008, 06:52:58 PM »

Just wanted to add my note of appreciation for your effort. As a long time guitar owner/relatively recent serious student these mysteries revealed are a welcome gift. BTW, and for anyone who like me cuts/pastes your posts for future reference there's a little freeware tool called Clipdiary that makes this process much easier. CD allows you to copy the text from several (or many) posts and saves this text for later pasting in a Word document, etc. in one process. This eliminates the need to bounce back and forth between your browser with the posts and your document where you are saving the text for later. DL this small, add free utility at:
Thanks again for all the good work and the help it affords.

PJH
Logged

Larrivee D03-R
Yamaha FG-180
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2008, 08:51:51 PM »

Thanks for that tip on site. I'm goona check it out. I whish I could get a better fret board diagram
to use, that shows frets. I haven't looked too hard yet but that would be nice.
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2008, 01:03:15 AM »

 The purpose of this post is to make clear that open E open A and open D are really the same chord shape on different strings.
The shape is changed as it moves across strings because the interval between 3rd and 2nd string is different that the rest as demonstrated when you tune a guitar to itself, the old fashion way.  The 2nd purpose is to show what other chords we can make from these shapes and seeing that relatively speaking were doing the same things to each chord when we change it. The wicked
B (for bad) string tries to hide this fact from us, but he SHALL be exposed! My start will be easy as I cut and past this from previous
post.

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relative position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

Now we'll start making different type chords out of these shapes at the same time so we can compare them and see that they are all changing in the same way.
 
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------           1/-----1---------bIII
2/-----------------                 2/------1-------bIII         2/----3----------I                                 
3/------0----------bIII            3/...---2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          Em                                     Am                         Dm
We turned it into a minor by flatting the 3rd. On all three shapes the highest fretted note lowered 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/----3---------IV
2/-----------------                 2/-----.3-------IV           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------2----------IV             3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
    E sus                                    Asus                      Dsus
We turned it into a sus (4th note added) chord by raising the 3rd 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/------2-------III           2/-----2----------VII                                 
3/------1----------III              3/-----1---------VII         3/-----2----------V
4/------1---------- VII            4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          EMaj7                            AMaj7                        D Maj 7
We turned them all into major sevenths by lowering root one fret. Thats a tip to remember. The maj 7 note is right below the
root. Find root and count down, makes it easy to find. For Dom (b7) just go down 2 frets (or steps)  Tip: Remember that
when making a chord, a rule is that you don't have 2 notes a 1/2 step apart. This shape introduces that situation when you play
open notes with it.
Use at your own discretion and risk when including the open notes in this shape. I could say more but I won't
right now. Another note. The EM7 may not seem practical and awkward but we're gonna move these up the neck later so it's
important to know where Maj 7 note is.

Another Maj 7 out of this shape, putting major 7th on top so to speak.

                                                                           ( 4)  "Help!!! I fell off the world! I told you the earth was flat!"
1/-----------------                 1/-------4-------VII          1/-----2---------III
2/------4----------VII             2/------2-------III           2/-----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/------2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D
Ok on E I can't really reach it, but again, we'll be going up the neck where the frets are closer, very do-able up there.
Remember with A hopefully you are barreing across 2nd fret with index. If you don't do that, then start. It's a pain at fist but
 WAY, WAY important. With the D shape, obviously the poor fellow fell into space.
Remember the important thing we're doing with all these is watch the shapes change in the same manner!

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III          2/----1----------bVII                                 
3/------1----------III             3/------0---------bVII      3/-----2----------V
4/------0----------bVII           4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
     E7                                     A7                             D7
Kept lowering the Maj 7 down to Dom 7    Can get nice little move doing that BTW. Try playing D-DMa7-D7.

1/-----------------                 1/--------3------bVII        1/-----2---------III
2/------3---------- bVII          2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
       E7                                     A 7                         D (not playing this round)
Putting flatted 7th on top.
 
open D's revenge!

1/------2-----------III               
2/------0-----------VI                                               
3/------2---------  V           
4/----------------               
5/---------------               
6/-----------------                 
        D6   
I show that not just as a joke, but when the other chords go up the neck, they'll be able to do that trick as well once
the nut is out of the way. 

Well I guess it's not too much revenge cause the other 2 chords can do this.   

1/-----------------                 1/-------2------VI           1/-----2---------III
2/------2---------- VI             2/------2-------III          2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/---2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------                         
       E6                                    A6                          D "*!@##!@#"
Well that should certainly give you the idea that they are the same shape if it wasn't clear and a review of some
of the chords that can be made from those shapes.  Open C chord dissected later. Caution: I'm not gonna have to to
double check my work right now.
   














Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
PJH
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2008, 08:09:05 PM »

flatlander, and anyone else interested in a guitar fingerboard image creator, this may seem obvious but Microsoft Excel does a pretty fair job on just such an image. Using a grid of cells and the Borders menu one can create an image of the fingerboard and any number of frets. I use varied thicknesses of lines for the strings and double lines for the frets/nut. Creating the fingerboard is a one time thing as once created it can be copied and pasted any number of times to use with different chord patterns, scales, etc. Using the Drawing menu and Autoshapes you can create the filled circles to paste on the strings to indicate fingering and fret positions.
Logged

Larrivee D03-R
Yamaha FG-180
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2008, 11:17:46 PM »

Thanks, good idea. Then once you make the diagram, can you cut and paste it to here or say to word?
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
PJH
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2008, 09:33:52 PM »

FL - the cut and paste routine from Excel to Word is a little complicated and actually unnecessary. If you compose in Word you can use the Table and Drawing menus in Word to create your image. They work the same as Excel. FYI, I tried posting copies and images of the Excel files I had created in my original reply on this topic but couldn't make it work. This may be due to my status as a "newbie" or possibly some other restriction this forum has. If you know how to get files or images included with a posting/reply let me know and I'll send you examples if you like.
Logged

Larrivee D03-R
Yamaha FG-180
pennerblue
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 883




Ignore
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2009, 05:52:55 AM »

I hereby nominate Flatlander for the Outstanding Service Award for the forum.  If I had it my way, your award would be a new Forum III  bowdown which flavor would you like?

Thanks man
Penner
Logged

Three Larries and a Guild and an A&L...and electrics...and a mando

“Your lack of technique can be part of your style. The thing about style is that it’s more entertaining, more important and hopefully more intellectual than technique.”
Kim Thayil (Soundgarden)

flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2009, 11:31:07 AM »

Hog/Hog But I'm not picky.  I will pick back up on this at some point. Thanks.
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2010, 05:49:09 PM »

It's been a year since this has been replied to so I'm just giving it a bump for any newer members that might be interested. Thinking in terms of 3rd's was a huge jump in my understanding of guitar and greatly increased my level of play. So it'd be a shame if even 1 person would want to study this stuff but didn't see it buried down in posts.
Starts with basic theory and then quickly goes into use of 3rd's.   matt
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2012, 12:21:21 AM »

This is the thread I want to combine with new sticky on chords. There's a lot of good stuff here that needs to be in there as too not be wasted AND it has the basic chords theory in the beginning which is needed for the rest to make better sense. matt
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
L07 Shooting Star
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3721




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2012, 01:26:17 AM »

This is the thread I want to combine with new sticky on chords. There's a lot of good stuff here that needs to be in there as too not be wasted AND it has the basic chords theory in the beginning which is needed for the rest to make better sense. matt
Hey Matt,
Now all you need to do is put this all together in a little book.   
Once the "sticky" is cleaned up and completed I plan to print it all up and go through it from start to finish.

Kurt
Logged

"Badges?  We don't need no stinkin' badges."

Became a Shooting Star when I got my 1st guitar.
Back in '66, I was 13 and that was my fix.
Still shooting for stardom after all this time.
If I never make it, I'll still be fine.


 
flatlander
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3804




Ignore
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2012, 02:07:37 PM »

I have thought about it. It's be called "learning chords from the inside out. Meaning you just start with learning and understanding chords by the 3rds, then add the 5th so you see the triad. Then learning how to add all the altered chords and extensions. It would be designed for people like myself who are never gonna be true theory guru's but can get through enough of it to get basic understanding and greatly improve playing. But I know dang well I'll never get around to that so sap it up!  Ok, I'm gonna start combining.
Logged

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: