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Author Topic: using 3rd's and beyond (from "tips)  (Read 12630 times)
flatlander
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 02:44:25 AM »

Ok one last showing before Turkey Day, Kentucky, Barn Jam, Race Track? I when I get back I've got to get back to writing and learning covers to prepare for getting out and makin a little side cash. No bail out on horizon here. (note: I had to do massive cut and pastes in modify to correct things that happen
when post actually goes to thread. And I do mean massive. If you see something that's out of
whack please reply and tell me. I'm talkin like sentences that are fragmented and such. Thanks)


Finding chords by using your knowledge of 3rd's and other aspects of chord construction.

Lets take a D shape chord and tear it up. Grow it new arms and anything else to milk the crap out of this chord form.
were gonna do this up yonder on the 9th fret where it will be an A type chord. Idea is to set in head that this is a D shape
chord that can be used to make all the different name chords, as long as fingering doesn't get impossible. Of course up the neck you can reach more frets. 1st step essential if you want to understand what going on. That being said always look for notes you can add to chords shapes wheather you understand it or not!

1/--------9----------III   Get this down. A basic triad uses 1-3-5 notes out of the major scale which 
2/--------10--------I     bares it's name. Know which fretted note is what degree of the triad.
3/--------9----------V     1st  3rd or 5th. Then  you'll know what you are doing to chord
4/------------------      when you move a note up or down.
5/------------------
6/------------------
  Lets move the 2nd string around and see what happens. I'm skipping the 1st right now on purpose.
   We'll get back to it and then I'll explain it's caveats.(sorry, they like to use that word at work)

1/---9-----9-----9-----9    1st chord is regular A major. The root (I) is on 2nd string.  The major 7th
2/--10-----9-----8-----7    note is always right below  the root.
3/---9------9-----9-----9    So by lowering the 2nd string note 1 fret you get A Maj7 chord.                           
  Lower it again and you get b7th note or Dom 7th, so A7.  Lower it again and you get 6th so A6.
 By same token you could raise the 2nd string to 12th fret and get a D add2.
                                   
Note: I've spent the last 15 minutes stepping on the muck in my brain about moving the 3rd string around, specifically down.
If you move it down 1 fret to 8th fret you get diminished 5th note. feel free to throw it in there. To turn it into a true diminished chord to many other things come into play, so I'm gonna bag that. Let's go up with it though.

1/---9----9----9-----9----- start with A maj. By raising third string up 1 fret you have
2/--10--10---10---10----augmented (raised)5th. A aug chord.
3/---9---10---11---12----By raising again you add 6th note. A6.
                                   Raise again and you have b7 note or A7.                                                     
Ok now lets go on a little journey to show what you can find if you hunt and peck around.  The following is a true story or exmaple
of my thought process. The names have not been changed and all are assumed guilty.
On the previous example I really like using the 6th and flatted 7th for a little rock & roll feel. But 2 things, I've got a pretty good
pinky but, is there an easier way to do it? Secondly and probably more importantly. That R&R lick out of that chord is a little trebly
and thin for rythm. Wonder if I can get the 4th string in the game to beef it up.  Alright let me see what the 4th string has to
offer. I still don't know every note instantly all over neck so I bumble around til I figure out that theres a note on 11th fret 4th
string that works. Check it out more and figure out it's the 3rd. Well that's great but now I've got all 4 fingers tied up. How can I do my little boogie thing? Well the first string was playing the 3rd before, but now I don't need it, found me another. So let me
abandon the 1st string and concentrate on 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and arrange fingers so I can do my boogie. End up with

1/------------------    open or muted in A's case since E fits in chord.
2/---M----10--------  Shape used on some other frets will have to be muted. NOW my pinky is more
3/---I------9---(11)(12)(11) directly in position for boogie notes and bassier chord.
4/---R----11--------- And look at all this gravey! Being an A chord, the 1st,
5/------------------   5th and 6th string can  ring open and fit chord!
6/------------------    A beautiful chimey little creature. A great chord AND EASY!
  That's what I'm lookin for. My little boogie lick is in ( )
Experiment. move that 4th string note up and down. See what she got.

If you're following this bless you. Cause were gonna take it further. The flatted 7th here works great for my boogie lick but
as just a 7th chord doesn't have enough bite. That bluesy sting. For that I want my 2nd string 7th back! But I still like using the 4th string. Hmm  I could do this.

1/--------------- Well that works, I guess. A little bit of a stretch for this wimp. No real special sound.
2/-----I---8----- Let see if I can get fingers in better position. I can walk the 4th string down
3/----M---9-----and find next -note that fits. I remember that's not what I did in this case.
4/----R---11-- Not by that method. I used this trickwhich is a good one. Look for the same
5/--------------type chord as your making, A in this case, in the next position down.
6/-------------  -in this case it's a Barred A on the 5th fret. See if the notes played on higher frets of that form, can marry withthe lower fretted notes of form above it. A chord diagram show both chord would be nice.
But just make  A barred A on 5th fret and picture this A7 above it. Bottom line is you can arrive at this.

                      Now this is a great 7th chord.  Warm but very funky. Get some good
1/----------            20's,30's blues sound out of it.
2/---8---M---      Non fretted strings can rings open, they also can when using as an E chord
3/---9---R-------. down the neck. You've lost your 3rd here, which
4/---7---I---------books will tell you is all important, but who cares
5/------------------When using on various other frets you may have to mute open
6/------------------ strings or you can always do either or, of 2 following things marked with ( )

1/------(9)--P-----
2/-------8---M------
3/-------9---R------
4/-------7---I------
5/------(7)--I-----
6/------------------

Ok that about killed me. I'm picturing people hanging themselves across country or even the world. Ryler you OK?
 Weather you followed the whole story or not is not as important as getting the idea of finding your own stuff.
I'm beat and I'm not going back to Original D shape and first string options. If you made it thru this, you'll get the idea.
The caveat on 1st string is that it's the 3rd and book tell you it's crucial to define chord. I find it is when defining minor,
but as we just proved with above chord, I don't think it always needed.  GOOD NIGHT!
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ryler
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 03:14:56 AM »

Flatlander,

I hung with you through it all, and believe I even get it.  I was playing Norwegian Wood last night in D and there was all the stuff you laid out emphasizing a dance up the fretboard on the first two strings with a steady bass drone below it.   I'm going to need to spend some time on the last two posts to get it ingrained--that sense of knowing what I'm playing within each chord.

I can't thank you enough for all you put into this lesson.  Take your well-deserved break, get full up on turkey and we'll see you back here at the stompin' ground for some guitar chit chat.  Much obliged for sharing your knowledge.

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lw216316
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 02:40:20 PM »

thanks for posting.....keep 'um comin'      bigrin

- Larry
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 03:16:09 PM »

Thanks, I will add another post about working out of the open A chord and that should be enough for people to get the idea and figure out thier own stuff. As I've read around and after a discussion with my friend the other night, it seems more people probably think of 3rds going across the neck and
stacking them and such for arpeggio use. If I get a better handle on that I'll start another thread along those lines, but I'm slow and that could be a while. As it is I use them MOSTLY for double stops.
 The one I'll try to get to before that is kinda the same idea as the double stop 3rd's,  is playing the minor penitonics as double stops for blues and rock stuff. I do go across the neck mostly with them
because they are more set up do to that and I'm always looking for easy things!
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flatlander
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 10:07:54 PM »

Well I guess I got a pretty good start with A already. I'm gonna post what I already had For A,
Then just put a couple practical things you can do maybe not so much just using the 3rds but
triad or more that the 3rds were derived from. Remember that part of what you're trying to
do here is see the whole chord that can be used as well.  Refresher from earlier post.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   
1/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/------------2-------------3-------------5-------------7---------------9---------------10---------------12-
3/------------2-------------4-------------6------------7---------------9----------------11--------------13--
4/-----------(2)-----------(4)----------(6)------------(7)------------(9)---------------(11)------------(12)
5/----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3. Notes in ( ) complete triad.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Here a couple little things that aren't too hard. (my constant goal) These would fall in the
"beyond" part of post heading. Something you can end up seeing as you see the 3rd's
patterns.

1/...............................................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5..............................................................
3/..........2.........4........6..................................................................
4/..........2.........2........7..................................................................
5/...............................................................................................
6/...............................................................................................

Important to make the open A barred with 1st finger. Then all you have to do is lay middle
and ring down to get 2nd chord.. I usually get 3rd chord with 1-2-3 fingers. This is the same
 thing we did with D, Just in A. The song would be holding on A chord and you just go
between two A chords with the middle step added. You can mix it up. Go down,
Maybe  just go back and forth between the first 2 chords a couple times then up to the
 5th fret. Play around with it.

Add a step to it. for 4th chord all you have to do is lay down pinky

1/.........................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......7.......5.......................
3/..........2.........4........6.......6.......6.....................
4/..........2.........2........7.......7.......7.....................
5/......................................................................
6/.....................................................................
 Or how bout

1/.............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......7.......10................
3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9................
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11..............
5/...........................................................................
6/........................................................................
Wanna go even further?
1/...............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......7.......10...10.....12....14....
3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9......9.....9......14
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11....11....11.....14.
5/..........................................................................
6/...................................................................................
Sorry 12 fretters but if you just get 2nd and 3rd strings it works.  On 2nd to last chord
again your just laying down pinky and other fingers remain in place. Notice that the main
feeling of movement is coming from 2nd string.. You could change that to 3rd string.

1/...............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......5.......10...10.....12....14....
3/..........2.........4........6.......6.......7....... 9......9.....11......14
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11....11....11.....14.
5/..........................................................................
6/...................................................................................
For ease and time lets just give 3rd string more emphasis between 2nd and 5th fret.
So you can find notes to add in to get a feeling of movement that aren't hard to do.
Folks this is probably cheating! A jazz miester could very likely have a whole nother
chord shape instead of just adding a note to exsisting chord. But it works and adds a lot
 for players at my level.
  I'm not gonna redo all these diagrams but do this. Just pretend, or actually, play like a 12 bar
blues. (even though these have major feel) when it's time to go up to the D chord just scoot
the whole pattern up 5 frets to 7th, and do the same thing, when it's time for E start at 9th fret.
Of course you'll run out of room, but that give the idea of moving patterns around, just like we did
with D.
 Time to go, but I think I need to do one more on this thread to show caviats and little interesting
things that are going thru my head that might make you think more.  When you strip a chord down
it is less harmonically bound     Sorry that just was a more sophisticated word than I'm used to.
But anyway it's less defined and can go more directions or could be a substitute for multiple chords.
One more later. (didn't I already say that?)
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lw216316
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2008, 01:57:06 PM »

   THANK YOU 

for taking the time to share this.
I've printed it for study.

- Larry
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ryler
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2008, 10:49:40 PM »

Oh these lessons are so cool.  Thanks for posting again.
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 12:14:29 AM »

Larry, as a finger picker, and there are many on here since Larrivee's attract them, let me add this.
Now my long history has been as a flat picker but The last year or so I've been working on finger pickin which is starting
to come along. But anyway, It may be even more important for a finger picker to begin to see the bigger picture, cause
after all your thumb is probably cryin "let me play some bass notes!".  Well one thing  when playing out of A  is that a lot of
the things we've shown have the opportunity to just use the open bass strings and keep the thumb busy. Idle thumbs are the devils workshop after all for a finger picker. So open A and E may work for one thing. Otherwise just play around and reach over there
and grab ya one til you find one fretted that works. It can lead to finding some neat chords and relationships.
In fact let me just throw out a couple ideas along the discovery lines.
1/...............................................................................................
2/..........10.....10.................10......10...............................................
3/..........9........9..................9........11............................................
4/..........11......11................11.......11............................................
5/....................9...........................................................................
6/...............................................................................................
           A        F#m7               A       F#m
The first change you were just huntin for a bass note so you  reached over with your first finger, actually you're barreing
across 3-4-5 strings and you find one. Then you say well that sounds like a whole new chord, Well that's because it is.
By adding that one note you've changed the chord from an A to an F#m7.
Hopefully from previous discussion, you understand the 1st chord A and where it comes from. If the 2nd on isn't plain at first, realize that is just formed out of your regular open Am (7)shape. Heres the full chord(s)
1/............9.......9.............................................................................
2/...........10.....10..........................................................................
3/.......... 11......9...........................................................................
4/...........11.....11.............................................................................
5/............9.......9...........................................................................
6/............9.......9............................................................................
            F#m     F#m7

So knowing that everything is always relitive
you have figured out that anytime you can 1 note to a major and make it a relitive minor 7th, (VI chord is the relitive minor
remember) By the same token which is something you should definitely understand, the second example just changes it to
an F#m.  That is usually very easy to do and the one note to change is usually very handy. Hence you can also see why the
VI minor is called relitive. It's almost the same as the I chord. I've got to get dinner then I'm gonna give one more example.
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lw216316
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« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2008, 02:10:25 AM »

thanks again, TEX
I've printed it out to add to my notebook for detail study.

Well, us finger pickers have to accept help where we can find it !

I live in Music City USA, home of the Titans  (can we make it to and win the superbowl this year ? )

We have a bunch of guitar stores in this area but it was very hard to find a guitar like I wanted.
I wanted a wide neck steel  and stores don't carry them because they don't sell.
So I ordered online - my SD-50. She is sounding sweeter as time goes on.

Someday I would like to get a better classical -  (if we get another tax refund - maybe)
again, they are hard to find in stores because they don't sell as well as electrics and standard steel.

I would really like to test drive a Larrivee classical or a Pavan.
I had a chance to play a $2000 Ramerez - but was not overly impressed.

Your help is greatly appreciated.
- Larry
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« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 02:43:53 PM »

ok. I have studied your lesson ....and....I GET IT !

You are playing a 3 note triad for the major - the neat thing is you are using what I think are called INSIDE CHORDS -
AND you are getting this MAJOR by playing the inside notes of a IVmin 7th... chord form
Then when you add in the bass note you get the IV min 7th.

I have also figured out that if I use the open E chord form in barr form for the major
THEN it is also very easy to drop that E form down one string and get the IV minor .

...also easy to drop and lift one finger to get the minor 7th.

So I can slide my E form barr down the neck to get many other keys.

I wondered how to APPLY this -
I can recall hearing songs with that chord progression -
It was similar to a suspended chord used for tension that would resolve back to the major.

So I guess it could be used at the end of a song, or possible in the intro, or maybe in the bridge ????

When using it for suspense I've noticed that if I play
MAJOR,   IV minor or IV minor 7th , then raise the flated 3rd note to a sharp 3rd for one beat, and go back to the flat 3rd
it makes a nice little suspense sound to resolve back to the major !!   bigrin

TEX, if I was there I'd buy you a BBQ dinner.

- Larry
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« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2008, 04:03:47 PM »

I am really HAPPY right now, sorry, I just spent an hour and a half writing out some really cool stuff and when I went to post it it got lost!   See how happy?
It gave more examples of how changing one note can change chord. How stripped down chords become more flexible and can be used as substitutes more easily. Like how a stripped down 7th chord, minus the root, can sub for a diminished ect.
The Em were gonna use below could also be used as a G6. I explained it all and with diagrams but if you take the time to figure out why youself it would be a great exorsise. Just figure what notes make up G6 and what makes Em and compare. The G6 is missing 5th.

Dang I'm mad. But anyway I will redo the last bit which will be fun and give an extended idea of how you can use this stuff. Like I said earlier I use most of this stuff on simple songs
Dylan. "don't think twice, it's alright" Chords G-D-Em-C-G-D-G.

1/.....7.....5......3......3.......7......5.......3...............................................
2/.....8.....7......5......5.......8......7.......3...............................................
3/.....0.....7......4......5.......0......7.......0...............................................
4/.....0.....0......5......5.......0......0.......0...............................................
5/                                                     2
6/                                                     3
         G    D      Em    C       G      D      G
I finger pick this and use what I posted as intro and between verses. The 3 and 4 string can be gotten by thumb.
You can always hammer on additional notes .
Notice the last G is our big open friend which put me in position to start singing verses with big open chords.
Notice how only 1 note changes to go from Em to C.
Disect that G6 Em relationship. Ask questions about it if your having a hard time gettin it. I'll try to answer.
 bigrin bigrin
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2008, 04:21:11 PM »

Larry I'm a Kentucky boy, remember? We grew up with no shoes together?
I'm not sure about that Tex thing?
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2008, 05:36:51 PM »

describe how you 'lost' it. maybe it can be recovered.
Were you typing into a word processor to then paste into the post
or were you typing directly into the post box ?

If you were typing into a post and something happened then you might be able to
use the BACK arrow at the top of the screen to get back to a window that had the text in it BEFORE you
tried to post it. You can still try that if you have left your computer running and the forum session active.

May I suggest this ?
To safeguard your future work, you don't want to lose an hour of work or even a half hour
so-
start in a word processor and NAME and save your work when you first start,
then CLICK on SAVE every 10 minutes or so -
When done then COPY and PASTE into the forum reply box.

I thought you were living in Texas now ?
There ain't much FLAT land in Kentucky. If you squished it all down flat it would be bigger than Texas  bigrin
Shucks, if you're still in Kentucky, I'll change that BBQ to some good ole Kentucky Fried Chicken !

- Larry
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 05:51:51 PM »

When I went to post their was  appeared to be a link error or connection error maybe I should say. Back arrow didn't work.
I had right clicked and done"copy" before post, but right click again and no paste available. I know How I need to do it but
 just didn't.
From Hills of kentucky but have lived on flat coast for last 15 years. Was lowlander which was also band name, but had to change when revenuers came chasin.
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2008, 06:16:11 PM »

well, using a word processor is the safe way-
your lessons are good and worth saving and having backed up !
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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 03:38:13 AM »

To sum this thing up there were really 2 ideas here, the way I see it.
The first is just using 3Rd's as double stops (playing two notes at a time) to add a pretty fills or even entire lead break.
Kinda gives it a Spanish feel or mandolin feel.
 The second, although not as flashy, but more important is that hopefully it helps you visualize a map of the
fretboard better. I think of it as learning chords from the inside out. You learn how the chords go by starting with just the 3Rd's.
That makes the patterns pretty easy to learn. Then you picture the triad by adding one note, then you start to see the extensions
off of them.  I know for me looking at a lot of the chords up the neck, they were just globs of notes. If they don't make any sense to you and you're simply trying to memorize all these chords or just learning them to play one particular song, they are hard to use
at will like when you're jammin with someone.
 Anyway I enjoyed putting this stuff down and it has given me some new revelations as well.
As a final note I again say that although you could use this stuff to keep right on progressing, I play pretty simple stuff and
was just looking for a way to spruce it up some. If your an intermediate player who wants to take the next step and start going up the neck more and it actually making sense, I guarantee this is a good way to go. Thats a money back guarantee! Make sure you take the time to understand chord construction, figure stuff out on your own, start implementing
the ideas into your day to day playing, then just let time take it toll.
Let me add this link that I found last night. You can select this instrument, tuning. Put in what key or I think it calls it root,
what type of scale, It will give you tons of different scales and also show you whatever chord you want. You can select how many frets you want the diagram to be of. Just very versatile in the fretboard diagrams it gives you.   matt
http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/

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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 01:45:43 PM »

did you forget to paste in the link ?  -   (been there done that ! )  bigrin
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« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 02:04:53 PM »

Me do something spacey?? Yes apparently I did forget. Thanks and it's there now.
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rpm60912
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2008, 07:06:48 AM »

I wondered into this.  This is admirable. Very technical stuff.

Have you considered doing a video to actually demonstrate these lessons? I'd love to be able to follow this... I wonder if there's help for the visually oriented like me?

ADDED LATER.... I just discovered the other thread "Pass on your tips" - I guess I should start there.

ricky
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flatlander
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2008, 10:48:40 AM »

I wonder if there's help for the visually oriented like me?
Visualize this.You're taking one page at a time, starting at the beginning, and reading it til it makes sense. You're asking questions if you have any. You're placing fingers where the diagrams show and again always asking questions if you have any.
  If it takes you a year, heck 2, to go thru thread, it may still be one one the quickest ways to start to understand how the neck is laid out. And in the mean time you learn these little double stops, starting with very easy examples, which can add a lot to playing quickly. Visualize spending half the time we do on here, actually practicing guitar.
 The only thing a video would do that I can think of is show you what fingers I have on what strings. Ask and I'll tell you that.
 Besides I'm a 98 year old woman with no hair and don't want to blow my fantasized image as a dashing young 50 year old man!
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