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Author Topic: using 3rd's and beyond (from "tips)  (Read 12367 times)
flatlander
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« on: November 19, 2008, 07:59:36 PM »

Copying over from pass on your tips as this is going to be more than simple little tips as I intended the other thread to be for. I will trasfer posts starting with how chords are made and what chords go with what keys as they will relate to 3rd's and give a reference to look back at. Any teachers or knowledgable others please feel free to add or correct. I just dug this stuff out on my own with no formal study other than basic understanding of theory from books. Also any one who has things related to 3rd's in anyway please add! If anyone has questions, please ask. I'll try to answer if I can or perhaps someone else can. I've heard people on here's stuff and I KNOW there's folks that know more about this stuff than I do.
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flatlander
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 08:01:26 PM »

Basic chord theory for biginners or people who never got around to learning.
Chords are named by referencing the major scale of the key that is the name of that chord.
 In other words for a C type chord you're referencing C major scale. (do-re-mi ect)
for D chord you're referencing D Major scale.

do is I, re is II, mi is III fa is IV, so is V, la is VI, te is VII "and that brings us back to DOOOOO(sorry) This Do is octive. Keep going above octive and you end up with 9th 11'th 13th ect.

 Chords are named by what notes out of that scale you are using or what you've done with them, (flatted, raised)

Major chord uses 1st, 3rd, 5th notes out of scale

Minor uses 1st, flatted 3rd(lower 1/2 step or 1 fret) and 5th.

Suspended short for suspended 4th. replace 3rd with 4th note in scale. I guess it's called suspended because that's how it sounds. Wants to get back to 3.

Augmented is short for Augmented(raised) 5th In C knock G note up to G#

Dominent flats 7th note in scale. Often just notated as (x)7 a major 7th uses non flatted 7th and is notatated Maj 7

Diminished   flat 3, flat 5 and 6th. can be named by any note in chord and repeats itself every 3 frets up (or down)

The rest of names are pretty much just what note you added from scale to chord.
A  C6 just adds the 6th note (A) to chord.

9ths, 11ths, 13ths aren't always octive above root. If called by that name however they are assumed to be built off of a dominent chord and as such will have b7 as well. 

Well that's all times allows. Hope that's somewhat clear. Any ?'s ask. Or if someone with better knowledge wants to add
or correct (I don't think I said anything outright incorrect) please add comments.

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flatlander
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 08:03:01 PM »

WHAT CHORDS ARE IN A KEY AND WHY


When in a certain key what chords are likely to work? First know that these are not hard and fast rules, but generally speaking.
Lets take key of C for simplicity. C has no sharps or flats so the NOTES that make up C major are c-d-e-f-g-a-b then repeat.
On keyboards thats white keys only. The standard triad chords that fit a key uses only the notes that are in that key. (talking triads, not dominent, or any kind of dim or altered ect)
 You start with the c note for first chord. Take the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes (every other note in the c maj scale) and you end up with C E G which is a C Chord.
Move up to the next note in scale, D and do the same thing. 1st, 3rd, 5th notes starting with D, using only the notes from C scale.You end up with DFA. If you refernce back to how chords are named a couple of post back, you see that is a Dm chord.
Up again to starting with E and taking  every other note that's in the C Major scale. 1-3-5 and you have Em
Starting with F you get F major
Starting with G you get G major
Starting with A you get Am
Starting with B you get B b3b5 (B with flatted 3rd and flatted 5th) That can sound scarey but if you go back to how chords are named it should make sense.
In summary all you are doing is using the ONLY THE NOTES THAT ARE IN THE SCALE YOU ARE PLAYING IN to make basic triads of all chords used for that key..
Start with each note from that scale and take every other note above it, (1-3-5) to make chord!

No matter what MAJOR key you are playing in the sequence will always be Maj min min Maj Maj Min and (b3 b5)
Again this is MOST of the time and generally speaking.  Many are familier for example of using the II chord as a major in like a country or southern gospel song.Definitley other exceptions as well. Hope somebody learns something. As always if I gaffed something pounding this out quickly, please correct me. I don't think so.
NOTE: In talking with friend the other night it seems that perhaps more serious theory would include some major 7ths or other extended chords as the primary chords for a scale.

Found this link also which explains pretty much the same way but maybe a thing or 2 to add.
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/chords/what_chords_are_in_what_key_and_why.html 
 
 
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flatlander
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 08:05:56 PM »


Quote from Ryler:
Flatlander,

I would love to hear your info on thirds, please do share.  I make it a point  to check this thread whenever something new has been added.  I've incorporated some of what has already been posted into my playing, so thanks.  Wish I could offer more myself, but I'm more of sponge at my stage of development
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 08:07:16 PM »

Hey I'm glad to! Just wanted to make sure someone was looking at this stuff. To reiterate. I AM NOT A GUITAR WIZARD. I've been playing since I was 15 and I'm 51 now. (What a difference flipping the 1 and 5 around make huh?) This stuff came SLOW to me. My desire is to share these things that I came to the hard way. Like every 2 years coming across something cool an then exploring it and ABUSING it. My thing has alway been to find things that a half axx player(myself) can do that aren't that hard but really add a lot.
Yes things like the 3rds take some practice and work, but God willin and the creek don't rise, time WILL go by and a year or two later they come quite naturally! Remember this. The hardest thing may be getting started on guitar. Those torturous hours of changing from G to C to D. And then just when you're feelin all big you go for the F chord. Sometimes I think they call it F for a reason.
These 3rds and a lots of other little movements I've put on here are no where near as hard as learning F. If you put 1/4th the work in as you did learning F you can expand. That was way to much rambling.............................

Starting to use 3rd's for leads or walk ups to after years of playing is one of the best things I've ever done. Highly recommended.
I'm going to put just the notes AND explain it theory wise. If the theory is confusing, forget it. Get back to it later though.
I consider this first set to be based out of D shape chord. If you walk these 3rds straight up the neck you get the D major scale in 3rd's
Do RE MI-----------
1/------------2------3-------5-------7----------9------------10----------12----------14---
2/------------3-------5-------7-------8---------10-----------12----------14----------15--
3/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're only using 2 fingers, not hard! Just a matter of learning pattern. Learn the whole pattern straight up the neck to start. But when using in practical terms you'll usually just us portions. Here's a couple of very simple ways to start incorporating them into playing 1 step at a time.. Your playing in D just do this
1/---------2----------3---------2------------------------------------------------------------
2/----------3----------5--------3-------------------------------------------------------------
3/----------2---------------------2----------------------------------------------------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's right just splitting the time you're spending on D by going up and right back down. Next step. Take it one notch higher.
1/---------2----------3---------5------------------------------------------------------------
2/----------3----------5--------7-------------------------------------------------------------
3/----------2--------------------(7)----------------------------------------------------------
4/---------------------------------(0)-------------------------------------------------------
5/---------------------------------(0)--------------------------------------------------------
6/----------------------------------(5)with thumb---------------------------------------
Here your doing the same thing but playing the D chord on 5th and 7th fret. LISTEN, when using the 3rd position as a D chord go ahead and play the 3rd string as well. That not only makes it fuller but defines it as a D chord clearly.  Don't get hung up on this right now but theres more to say about that. I won't muddy the water,yet. The important thing is to get used to these kind of movements. The rest of the notes are optional but all are correct notes for D chord.

Then you could step it up some more
1/---------2----------3---------5---------7--------5---------3-----------2------------
2/----------3----------5--------7---------8---------7---------5-----------3----------
3/----------2------------------------------------------------------------------2------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here your just walking it up a little further, then right back down to D. This could/would all happen while song is staying on D.
So you and bud usually just strum pretty easy songs. While (s)he's justing sittin there struming a D chord, throw that in. They'll go "man where did that come from"?Play around and find different ways to use them. It won't come overnite but these aren't too hard and if you keep incorporating them a little peice at a time, you can start using them pretty darn quickly. There's much more. As long as someone says they are intersted AND practicing this stuff I'll keep on, like ideas of what to do when this simple D song changes to G chord, then A chord. The 3rds on 2nd and 3rd strings, 3rd and 4th strings. How you can add notes to these easily. (after all you've got 2 free fingers there ready for duty) ect.
  These can be thought of as little pieces of chords. If you go back and look at what chords make up what keys you'll see the pattern goes Maj min min MAJ MAJ min then (b3 b5). 
Your taking the open D shape chord and and walking the scale up the neck using  D chord shapes, changing it to a Dm shape chord where appropriate and only using the note on 1 and 2nd string, which happens to be the I and III of the chord. (hence 3rds) Heres the same thing I put up in first diagram showing the whole chord with other note in shape included in ( ) This () note is the 5th
Remember chords in key M m m M M m (b5b7)
              I D maj       II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   
1/------------2--------------3-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------10---------------12--
2/------------3--------------5-------------7-------------8---------------10---------------12---------------14-
3/------------(2)----------(4)-----------(6)-----------(7)---------------(9)--------------(11)-------------12--
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 3rd string is the 5th of your triad, the 2nd string the 1 and the first string the 3rd. If you want, check this out. Play the scale up the neck like this and use entire chord. It'll make earier post about what chords work in a key clearer. Remember the shapes are all either an open D shape or Open Dm shape (except VII) just moved up the neck. Well I suppose that's a bit to keep someone busy a while. This is good stuff. Sensibud of tips. highly recommended.
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flatlander
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 08:13:03 PM »

For mandolin, these same types of things are GREAT.
Same idea. 1 is on the 1st string this time though and 3rd on the 2nd string(s)
This would be working out of a G chord

    G chord
----------3------------5--------------7--------------8------------10------------12-------------14-----
----------2------------3---------------5-------------7-------------9-------------10--------------12---
----------5-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you play mandolin  you know that since the strings are all tuned the same interval from each other, you can simply move
chord  shape over a string and use same shape so you can  do same thing 3rds wise on 2nd and 3rd string using C shape.
    C chord
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------3------------5--------------7--------------8------------10------------12-------------14------
----------2------------3---------------5-------------7-------------9-------------10--------------12----
----------5--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anywhere you use that chord shape, the same 3rd pattern will apply above it.
 
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 08:15:01 PM »

Quote from Ryler:
That was a fantastic post!  I  read it in its entirety, and  I'm eager to practice what you put down there.  I very much appreciated your "ramblings" leading into the exercise, because yeah, the first year of guitar is daunting.  Chord changes, daunting.  Maintaining rhythm, daunting.  Good to hear from someone who has conquered the slowness of learning.  I consider myself in the slow and steady camp of learners, maybe with an emphasis on slow.  Keeps me inspired to hear from those who maybe didn't have the gift of musical prowess right out of the gate, but had  the dedication to keep at it.  And to know that there are breakthroughs if you do so.

I played through everything you detailed there and will incorporate it into daily practice.   Posts like yours take a lot of time to write, so I really appreciate your doing it.  Really helpful.
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 08:16:04 PM »

Very cool! As long as 1 person is actually working on this, and lets me know, I'll keep on. Ryler, keep this in the back of your mind. Don't kill yourself with the theory right now if it doesn't click but keep nibbling at it.
Eventually when you understand the 3rds well, it will lead you to knowing chords all over the neck. That may be 2,3,5 years from now. Hopefully not cause I bore that cross already and can help speed it along. But plant that seed. More on how/why that's gonna happen later. I went back and corrected the overlapping lines. What you put in post can get convaluted when it actually goes to thread.
 Please if you have any questions, ask them. Make me think more. The more I write these down the more they concrete up in my head.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 08:26:15 PM »

I play an instrumental version of the old 60s hit -  There is a Rose in Spanish Harlem.
I play it in the key of C. The melody runs right up the neck similar to your D example - but in the key of C.
I use intervals starting in the open position and work my way right up strings 1 and 2.

A lot of my old 60s favorites have beautiful interval runs in them
- like Time in A Bottle
- Classical Gas

What I'm working on is learning to do this smoothly from chord to chord,
and what fingers to use to set me up for the next place I 'land' on the keyboard.

Thanks for posting.

- Larry
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 08:59:50 PM »

Quote
9ths, 11ths, 13ths aren't always octive above root. A D9 could be thought of as a D2 sometimes but of course that terminoligy is never used.

Close; however, you should add that 9ths, 11s and 13ths include (or assume) the 7th. E.g. C9, C11, and C13 all include the Bb. A D9 consists of a D F# A C E, whereas a D2 would consist of a D E F# A.
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 09:55:05 PM »

Close; however, you should add that 9ths, 11s and 13ths include (or assume) the 7th. E.g. C9, C11, and C13 all include the Bb. A D9 consists of a D F# A C E, whereas a D2 would consist of a D E F# A.

Wouldn't D E F# A be D add 2, and D2 would be D E F# A C. I've always thought that if you didn't have the flat seven then you had to say add 2.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2008, 10:02:20 PM »

Close; however, you should add that 9ths, 11s and 13ths include (or assume) the 7th. E.g. C9, C11, and C13 all include the Bb. A D9 consists of a D F# A C E, whereas a D2 would consist of a D E F# A.
Thanks and right!  I'll go back and add that to that post as a note.  If you want go back and read it to make sure I stated correctly. Any corrections or better explanations welcome. When I modified I also noticed that I said a suspended chord added 4th.
I changed it to read that the 4th replaces 3rd. When there's a difinitive answer about when to use + or "added" I'll put that in as well.. I honestly am not sure about that.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2008, 10:09:25 PM »

a tip for practicing scales etc.

It's hard for me to find the time,  or discipline myself to practice just scales for 30 minutes or whatever.

So, this works for me -

each time I get ready to practice a song -
I FIRST practice the scale for that key -
AND I play the root chord in every position on the fretboard that I know for it.

This way I at least get in SOME time on scale and chord postion practice -
instead of spending ALL my time doing what I like doing and then at the end not having the time or discipline to do the scales etc.

...and this way if my practice session gets interrupted and has to stop then I at least got in a LITTLE scale and position practice -
I'm learning that doing at least a LITTLE each day is important to my progress.

- Larry
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2008, 04:51:38 AM »

I was wondering where to go next and decided on staying on the first 2 strings for a while. Those are the easiest, and I stayed there quite a while before going to other string pairs. I'm just gonna add one little piece to 3rds already mentioned. It also adds a little twist
to theory. I will put my guess as why it works, open to correction. But it definitely does work. Here it is
1/------2----------3-----5-----7-------(8)--------7--------5----------------------------------------
2/-------3----------5-----7-----8------(10)-------8--------7----------------------------------------
3/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The (8) and (10) replace the 9,10 of original layout in prev post.  I'll string something longer out that demonstrates different sound.
The first  ascention and descention will be pretty close to Rose in Spanish Harlem that Larry mentioned.
The second will add the "new" pair of notes.
1/----2----2-----3----5---5----7------9------7----5--/---2----2----3----5----7-----(8)-------7-----5--
2/----3----3------5----7---7----8-----10-----8----7--/---3----3----5----7----8----(10)-----8-----7--
3/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There it is. Why does it work when not one of the primary chords in key. Here's my GUESS
I don't know! I will say this. We assume the whole chord would be Am.  (Remember the 1st string of these pairs is the 3rd. What happens when you flatten the 3rd IE 9th fret to 8th fret? From explanation of chords we know that a minor chord is defined by flattened 3rd.)   
Why Am fits in key of D I can't explain but it does. you could play a little progression
that goes D Am G D right? Play these chords, just big open chords behind the change and hear it. Just assume everything up to that point is a D chord behind it for this purpose.
1/----2----2-----3----5---5----7------9------7----5--/---2----2----3----5----7-----(8)-------7-----5--
2/----3----3------5----7---7----8-----10-----8----7--/---3----3----5----7----8----(10)-----8-----7--
Backing chords D>                                                                             D     Am       G       D

That's all I'm gonna say about that. (isn't that a Forrest Gump line?)

Plant this seed in your mind. You are only playing 2 notes which means they could be 2 notes out of another chord than one shown
in previous post. Take the 5-7 combo. It could be the Ist and 3rd of F#min as shown in prev post, 5-7-6 , or it could be the 3rd and 5th of D chord. 5-7-7. That's why in example 3 of original post I said to play 5-7-7 to define it as D.   If that's confusing, it's supposed to be, for now. So don't get hung up on it if it is and just learn patterns and keep nibbling at theory. I can tell you I'll be having to think and learn as I try to get this stuff down in writing. As always correction or further explanation/ idea's more than welcome!
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 05:46:14 PM »

Ok you can use your pinky very easily to add a note to these forms. Perhaps a hammer on or whatever. Stay there a while if it fits.
If you make these the way I do, it's pretty much just a matter putting pinky down from where it already is resting. Easily added
 note notated in ( ) Note that this is 4th in scale if you care to. Or do what I usually do and just think of it as a note that can be added.

1/----2-(3)-------3(5)---------5(7)---------7(8)-------9(10)------10(12)-------12(14)----------14(15)
2/----3-----------5------------7-------------8----------10-----------12-----------14--------------15--

Doesn't take much of a stretch on D Major Shape based shapes to reach on up and get 2 frets up from (x) to get 5th.

A quick review demonstrating why these are 3rd's
1/-------2--------------1----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/-------3-------------3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3/------2-------------2------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   D Chord       Dm chord       
 These 2 shapes are what's used for these 1st set of 3rd's we're looking at.
No matter where they are up neck same theory applies.

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(2)-F# note--III- Me-3rd----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do----------------------------------
           D MAJOR  Do  Mi =1 and 3rd of scale

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(1)-F note--bIII-minor 3rd -----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do--------------------------------
                      D MINOR CHORD  1 and b3 of D  scale

So basically what you have for these D shape based 3rds going right up the neck, is that when the first string is
one fret lower than second string, it's a major. When it's 2 frets lower it's a minor.
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 10:37:59 PM »

Most of what has been shown so far is not only in the key of D but things that fit good while actually on D chord.
Now still in key of D we'll get started on options when going on thru G chord and A chord.
 We'll get started using a most basic progression. Along with a basic use of 3rd's

chords DDDD DDDD GGGG GGGG AAAA AAAA  D


1/-------2-----3------5-----3-------2-----3------5-----3

2/-------3-----5------7-----5-------3-----5------7-----5
Chord  D

1/-------7-----8--------10-----8-------7-----8--------10-----8

2/-------8-----10-------12----10-----8-----10-------12----10
Change to G chord

1/-------9-----10--------12-----10-------9-----10--------12----10

2/-------10----12-------14-----12-------10----12-------14----12
Change to A chord       then finish on a D chord

What we're doing here is just moving the original D chord shape up until its a G chord  then up til it's an A chord
and playing the same pattern above it each time.

1/-------2------3------5------------7-------8----10-----------9------10------12----------------
2/-------3------5------7------------8-------10---12----------10-----12------14---------------
3/------(2)-------------------------(7)-------------------------(9)---------------------------------
    D chord                        G chord                         A chord







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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2008, 12:00:52 AM »

Flatlander,

I've been doing these since you've been posting.  Just that one piece of info from previous post outlining the Dmaj and Dmin shape difference was an "oh cool" moment.  I like travelling up the fretboard as I tend to hang out in the comfort zone of the first five frets so very often.  So as you're posting these and explaining them, it gets me moving around the fretboard as well as understanding the relationships of the thirds in a physical way.  Thanks.
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2008, 01:09:03 AM »

  Yea, I wanted to make sure the relationship was clear, because like I said early, it will lead to "seeing" chords eventually.
You're seeing this piece of one, know right off where the 1st and 3rd are. You can hunt arount for 7th, 6th whatever and have whole chord. I'm excited that someones following along.
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 02:22:28 PM »

I'm going to start winding down on D shapes on 1st and second string but adding important stuff about them on my way out.

First to add more about what to do when changing chords while still in key of D. The same pattern is going to apply, pretty much,
and on the same frets. It's just that moving where you start , can follow the chord and feeling of song.
  When using 3rds in the manner I had in mind explained SO FAR, your pretty much playing lead with them.  So just as when your playing single string lead, there's no set pattern to use. You want to experiment with starting into pattern in various places,
skipping around, whatever to play a melody using them. Of course often a straight run up or down works great for leading into next chord. So experiment and start infiltrating them into playing and more ideas will come. You can come in and out of these while playing single string lead, or little pieces while your playing rhyrhm with mostly fuller chords. Remember to look for other notes you can
 add to them. Rememer as with any chord you can always slide into them from a fret below (or above)

 1/------1----2-------------2--3------
 2/------2----3-------------4---5----- ect. This would just be sliding up the whole form from below, not staying on lower set.
        So experiment

Ok this next part is crucial that you understand.  When using these in another key besides D, just remember that as in any scale
pattern, the same patterns will apply only the entire pattern will shift up or down the neck. I'l give example comparing D to E
and just apply that to whatever other key you want. As pattern pushes to 12th fret it's gonna pop back up at the bottom
Ie the nut or 1st fret.

Heres D again.
          I D maj          II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   
1/------------2--------------3-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------10---------------12-----(0)
2/------------3--------------5-------------7-------------8---------------10---------------12---------------14-OR-(2)
3/-----------(2)------------(4)----------(6)------------(7)-------------(9)--------------(11)-------------12------(0)

E, everything scoots up 2 frets. Top end of pattern drops down to nut end.

    VI C#min     VII  C#b5b3       I E maj       II f#m         III Abmin       IV AMaj          V B Maj                       
1/---------0------------2--------------4-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------11--------------
2/---------2------------4--------------5-------------7-------------9---------------10---------------12---------------
3/--------(1)----------(2)----------  (4)-----------(6)-----------(7)---------------(9)--------------(11)-------------
see where pattern just starts 2 frets up? If having trouble seeing put capo on 2nd fret and see original pattern up 2 frets
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flatlander
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 05:26:00 PM »

2 more ideas which will give you hints of how to get started expanding your use of these to:
(1) find 3rd's on other string pairs
(2) derive chords out of this knowledge.

Back in tips thread I believe I commented how open E  open A and open D are pretty much the same chord shape moved across
the strings. The inconsistant interval between the strings, because of 2nd string being tuned lower, just causes you to have to compensate for that. Oh yea maybe I can just go back and cut and paste that, hold on a minute....................................
I'm back. Found it!

It's good to know that open E, open A, and open D are really the same chord form, in a way. You're just moving the whole chord over a string. Since the B, 2nd string, has a different interval from 3rd string than all the other strings have to each other, you just have to compensate when when moving chord over a string. Anyone who plays mandolin knows that the interval is the same between all strings. Once you learn a chord form, you can just move it over  a string with same shape and have same type of chord a 4th or 5th away depending which way you're going. On guitar when the 2nd string is involved if you go from chords E to A you must raise the finger moving to 2nd string up a fret because 2nd string is tuned lower. When going from A to D again the finger moving from 3rd to 2nd string must move up a fret to compensate giving D shape.
  So the fetted notes on any of these triads always have the same interval. Lowest(pitchwise) fretted note is 5th. middle fretted note is 1st and highest fretted note is 3rd. If you understand that well, then you realize that when you learn one new chord form, you are really learning 3 providing fingering works!
 Example" to go from open chord E to E sus (4th) you just raise highest fretted note one fret, changing it from 3rd to 4th in chord context. The same applies to open A and open D.   So on open E your raising the 3rd string 1 fret.  on open A you raise the 2nd string 1 fret and D  raise the 1st string one fret . All 3 give a a sus4 chord. 

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relitive position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

So for D the 1st and 3rd are on 1st and 2nd strings. This is what we already went well over.
For A they are on 2nd and 3rd strings
On E they are on 3rd and 4th strings.

So open E shape based 3rds are going to use the same pattern up the neck, shifted over to 3rd and 4th strings as D right? Because 3rd is on next  string up, 1 fret down, just as D chape is. And ust like D, when you go to minor lower that 3rd 1 fret. Gives same pattern.

A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   
1/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/------------2-------------3-------------5-------------7---------------9---------------10---------------12-
3/------------2-------------4-------------6------------7---------------9----------------11--------------13--
4/-----------(2)-----------(4)----------(6)------------(7)------------(9)---------------(11)------------(12)--
5/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3

From this with a little concentration you should be able to get Open E shape base 3rds on strings 3&4 and whole chord.
I'll probably do one more post on deriving chords out of this knowledge, then take a break for several weeks except
little comments if someone asks or posts thier own ideas. I wrote a lot this A.M. with family circus going on around me and
interuptions. If I gaffed anything, find it and let me know!

 
 
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