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jeremy3220
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« on: October 21, 2008, 01:55:17 PM »

There were some questions brought up about the type of satin finish Larrivee uses in the thread about that koa guitar. http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=23391.0

 I wasn't 100% sure myself so I emailed Larrivee. They got back to me the next business day with this message:

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Do the 03 series guitars receive a UV cured finish also? I know it's a satin finish but I couldn't tell what kind of satin finish. Thanks, Jeremy


Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:26 PM
RE: Customer Service Request
mailed-bylarrivee.com

hide details 1:26 PM (19 hours ago) Reply


Dear Jeremy,

       Thank you for the e-mail. Yes the 03's also receive a UV cured finish.

If there's anything else we can do for you please let us know,

Greg


The UV cured finishes save a lot of time over more traditional finishes. Nitro requires 2-4 weeks before you can start sanding it. The extra time involved with the gloss finish comes from the extra prep work, coats, sanding and buffing involved with getting a high gloss finish. The difference between the finishes(gloss and satin) themselves should only be a flattening agent; which is where the look of the satin finish comes from and saves them from sanding and buffing after the last coat.
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limnephilidae
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 02:19:30 PM »

Thanks Jeremy!

I've got another question about the finishes: given the typical kind of dents and scratches our poor gits may receive, is there any additional benefit in having a gloss finish?

Thanks!
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 02:41:34 PM »

Thanks Jeremy!

I've got another question about the finishes: given the typical kind of dents and scratches our poor gits may receive, is there any additional benefit in having a gloss finish?

Thanks!

The answer is somewhat subjective. I personally think that small scratches and dents(the typical kind) don't show up as much on a satin finish guitar because the surface isn't as uniformally reflective(?) as a gloss finish. Larrivee says their gloss finish is about twice as thick as their satin finish so maybe it will protect the wood better but the satin finish, from my understanding, is far from being considered thin compared to how thin a guitar finish can be. jwb had a 03 refinished with a thinner gloss nitro finish by Peter Cree, who has also stated before that the satin finishes aren't all that thin. What I'm getting at is, I wouldn't get a gloss Larrivee for the protection aspect.
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Danny
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 05:05:52 AM »

There were some questions brought up about the type of satin finish Larrivee uses in the thread about that koa guitar. http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=23391.0

 I wasn't 100% sure myself so I emailed Larrivee. They got back to me the next business day with this message:


The UV cured finishes save a lot of time over more traditional finishes. Nitro requires 2-4 weeks before you can start sanding it. The extra time involved with the gloss finish comes from the extra prep work, coats, sanding and buffing involved with getting a high gloss finish. The difference between the finishes(gloss and satin) themselves should only be a flattening agent; which is where the look of the satin finish comes from and saves them from sanding and buffing after the last coat.
                  When I was talking to Matthew Larrivee today he mentioned the UV Poly was Polyester. Which was new to me, I thought it was Poly urethane. Also he said they let it cure 2 to 3 weeks before shipping which helps prevent the finish from sinking in to the wood. This was about the Gloss.
                   I also asked him about repairing gloss finish scratches on Larrivee's with Poly and as you have mentioned Jeremy it is hard to do. Sometimes they just refinish the whole top or part of a side and blend it in.
    He did say a small scratch could be repaired using Krazy glue as the finish. That will leave a slightly different gloss though. But if it's in an area not seen much it would work fine.
                  One other way is to repair a small area with polyester and let it cure for a month.
   I asked this because I scratched my brand new LSV-11 two days after it left the factory. I already micromeshed out the scratch but that left a dip so now I'll fill it in with thin layers of "cyanoacrylate ester" ie. thick super glue.
   Then I'll see if I can buff it out. Matthew did offer to fix it if I was back their way in California. But this is in a good place for a scratch repair if you are gonna have one. It's on the lowerbout bottom side. I really have to look for it now , so I hope when I'm through it will be camouflaged even better.
                 Dings and scratches happen, so I gotta learn how to fix them anyway.
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Zohn
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 01:19:33 PM »

Hi Guys! - a most interesting and debated topic - finishes on guitars. Dana Bourgouis has an enlightened view as to the sound aspect. He's of the opinion that much of the "breaking in" or "opening up" of particularly Sitka topped guitars, has to do with plasticizers used with nitro, which explains the tedious process of curing, and although the surface might appear cured, the immediate surface above the top is still relatively fluid. More than one source have reported the "broken-in" sound of particularly his new guitars, purely because he uses UV-cured Polyester finishes. There is undoubtedly also the aspect of cristalization of resins within particularly Sitka, but many people tend to ignore the finish-factor. It is of course easy to repair Nitro, because the finish "melts" into fresh applications. (most interesting....)
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 08:06:52 PM »

Dana Bourgouis has an enlightened view as to the sound aspect. He's of the opinion that much of the "breaking in" or "opening up" of particularly Sitka topped guitars, has to do with plasticizers used with nitro, which explains the tedious process of curing, and although the surface might appear cured, the immediate surface above the top is still relatively fluid.

I'm not sure if I buy that, mostly because the the immediate surface above the top generally isn't nitro but a seal coat of shellac which dries extremely fast.
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flatlander
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2008, 04:53:02 AM »

I'm not sure if I buy that, mostly because the the immediate surface above the top generally isn't nitro but a seal coat of shellac which dries extremely fast.
But you don't believe guitars open up anyway, right?
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 12:43:24 AM »

Jeremy knows 20 times what I do about wood, guitar structure ect. . I was wondering if his thoughts had changed on guitars loosening up be they an SC or Larrivee, a tank or a balsa airplane. ( whatever happened with balsa airplanes? never see kids with them anymore.) 
  Those airplanes were my favorite toys.  I think now all most kids want is video games.
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Broadus
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 02:17:33 AM »

Thanks Jeremy!

I've got another question about the finishes: given the typical kind of dents and scratches our poor gits may receive, is there any additional benefit in having a gloss finish?

Thanks!

I don't know anything about the protection offered by gloss finishes, but I inadvertently tested the satin finish of my L-03R last night. I was sitting on the sofa and reached around the coffee table to grab my Larrivee which was leaning against the recliner. I told myself to be careful about the coffee table (maybe it was a premonition  ), and then I boinged the top of the Larrivee against the corner of the coffee table. Panic-stricken, I quickly looked all over the top and could find no evidence that it had hit anything.

Bill
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 12:15:19 AM »

But you don't believe guitars open up anyway, right?


I believe they open up but I'm also skepitcal when someone buys a guitar that has been strung up for months(maybe even played in a store) and claims that it opened up in the first few hours, days or weeks. One of the main reasons I'm often skeptical is the way they describe how it opens up. It's often something like 'when I got the guitar it was weak in the bass but after a couple days the bass really opened up'. You never hear 'when I got the guitar it was too bassy and after a couple days the bass opened up and it was even more overwhelming'.
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 01:41:51 AM »

How much perceived "opening up" is our ears becoming more attuned to the nuances of the particular guitar?

Bill
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2008, 02:16:53 AM »

How much perceived "opening up" is our ears becoming more attuned to the nuances of the particular guitar?

Bill

Exactly! I don't have percentages or any kind of figures but I think people often underestimate how much of the change in sound they perceive is subjective. The anecdote I've given a few times is the example of listening to an unfamiliar song where one can't make out some of the lyrics at first, then after a number of listens the words are clear as can be. The recording didn't change but your perception of the sound did.
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Danny
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2008, 02:52:57 AM »

Exactly! I don't have percentages or any kind of figures but I think people often underestimate how much of the change in sound they perceive is subjective. The anecdote I've given a few times is the example of listening to an unfamiliar song where one can't make out some of the lyrics at first, then after a number of listens the words are clear as can be. The recording didn't change but your perception of the sound did.
                 So when my strings are old and sounding dull, flat and no ring at all, then I put on a new set and it sounds like it's plugged into an amp, I'm just in my "perception zone" and imagining this?
                  The answer is of course a great big fat NO. Bone nut and saddle, new strings and yes loosening and opening of the wood does change a guitars tone. That's gotta be something that you would know just by going down to a shop and comparing some new models with older ones. This is beyond a doubt, a fact. Wood changes with time, humidity factors, temperature and yes a lot of wood pieces glued together will CHANGE due to vibrations caused by sound and the impact of of objects against it.
                 
                I think it was up in Washington State or somewhere in the Northwest where they built this really nice bridge. I'm not sure what the name of this type bridge is but it has the two arches on top of framing timbers set like braces on a guitar top in a way to span a gorge over a river I think. Anyway maybe someone else recalls this and can say the name of the bridge. It was very well made.
               But the wind set up a syncopation of sorts that destroyed the concinnity of the bridge bracing and it totally disintegrated.  The wind had a sonic harmony that the well designed and tightly fitted bracing could not resist and it "loosened" up a bit. Opened up may be a better term because it fell into the gorge.
               Then again maybe it was an illusion and we are all being scammed by people with great imaginations.  whistling       
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Danny
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2008, 03:04:57 AM »

   It was called the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.  (This is from Wikepidea)

The first Tacoma Narrows Bridge opened to traffic on July 1, 1940. It collapsed four months later on November 7, 1940, at 11:00 AM (Pacific time) due to a physical phenomenon known as aeroelastic flutter caused by a 67 kilometres per hour (42 mph) wind. The bridge collapse had lasting effects on science and engineering. In many undergraduate physics texts the event is presented as an example of elementary forced resonance with the wind providing an external periodic frequency that matched the natural structural frequency (even though the real cause of the bridge's failure was aeroelastic flutter). Its failure also boosted research in the field of bridge aerodynamics/aeroelastics which have themselves influenced the designs of all the world's great long-span bridges built since 1940.
                      I guess it is a "suspension bridge" and not an "arch" type.

                          Still this line is particularly interesting.
In many undergraduate physics texts the event is presented as an example of elementary forced resonance with the wind providing an external periodic frequency that matched the natural structural frequency.
     I think my new git needs some "external periodic forced resonance frequency"ie. 

                               "Mr. Wind The almighty Hawk, KNOCKIN MY BED DOWN"  What song was that line from? I know it was a bluesy tune, maybe Lou Rawls sang it about Chicago in winter.
                         "The game is afoot" (that would be Sherlock Holmes)

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flatlander
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2008, 03:48:24 AM »

I believe they open up but I'm also skepitcal when someone buys a guitar that has been strung up for months(maybe even played in a store) and claims that it opened up in the first few hours, days or weeks. One of the main reasons I'm often skeptical is the way they describe how it opens up. It's often something like 'when I got the guitar it was weak in the bass but after a couple days the bass really opened up'. You never hear 'when I got the guitar it was too bassy and after a couple days the bass opened up and it was even more overwhelming'.
I hear ya. I 'll tell you what I think. I think different guitars are different. I think some don't change sound that much over a long period of time. Others change pretty darn quickly and others are in the middle range. It is such an elusive question. From different builders or "experts" over the years I've heard the cause to be everything from where the lines in grain meet loosens up. to the glue on braces, to finish, to molecular structure changes and I'm sure others I don't remember. Then there's the older insruments "asleep" syndrome which I heard of Snuffy Smith even referring to by friend who takes his banjos to him. I don't think I recall any builder, repair person, disputing that they don't open up but if the real cause isn't even known, or if it's a combination (likely) how can anyone know how long it takes? The finish (just to pretend I'm staying on topic) would seem to obviously make a difference in tone but how much does it loosen up over time or effect the wood under it? If it's the wood itself, different wood,even of same type could be different.
 If anyone had discovered solid answers, we'd know about it. So what are we to beleive?  Our own ears and experiences.  Someone could have bought 3  new guitars and none of them had a great change over time. They may think opening up is baloney. Someone else may have a different experience and tell someone with certainty that thier new guitar WILL open up. My 2 Larrivee's have been on oppisite sides of the spectrum. My old L-10 not quickly or much. New 000-60 quickly and much. I would have thought it would have been my 21 year old ears that were anticipating britches browning changes (since it already sounded so good), that would have tried to lie to me. Not 50 year old ears with 35 years of continous playing, and that weren't expecting great change.  
  So how quickly? Do you blow off someone who works on a who's who list the likes of Tony Rice and companys' instruments if he says older instruments can come back to life after a day or 2 of playing? No doubt sometimes it's in someone's head, but I wouldn't make a blanket judgement about this mysterious phenom regarding time or amount of change.
 As I'm sure you'd agree with, buy the instrument for the sound it has now. Or build it with solid knowledge of immiediate effect. Use a finish that will do job but allow top to vibrate freely. Then keep your fingers crossed and see what happens.  
P.S. I appreciate the many facts about wood and building you share with us. I've learned a lot.
 
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Zohn
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2008, 01:36:37 PM »

Just to stir the pot somewhat more   bigrin - the latest Buzzword in better sound in new guitars, are application (Collings Varnish series and SantaCruz's technique of applying Nitro "very thin") and of course Hide glue!! It seems everybody who's anybody, is resorting back to the "golden era" techniques in terms of construction because apparently it crystallizes better than modern day "elastic" adhesives. The Martin Authentic series, Collings Varnish, Santa Cruz, and Bourgeois are popular brands that spring to mind. Do y'all think Jean Larrivee will "wake up" and jump into the latest and the greatest "techniques" as well?
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2008, 02:31:43 PM »

                 So when my strings are old and sounding dull, flat and no ring at all, then I put on a new set and it sounds like it's plugged into an amp, I'm just in my "perception zone" and imagining this?                        

That wasn't my argument. The first line of my response to flatlander was "I believe they open up".

I hear ya. I 'll tell you what I think. I think different guitars are different. I think some don't change sound that much over a long period of time. Others change pretty darn quickly and others are in the middle range. It is such an elusive question. From different builders or "experts" over the years I've heard the cause to be everything from where the lines in grain meet loosens up. to the glue on braces, to finish, to molecular structure changes and I'm sure others I don't remember. Then there's the older insruments "asleep" syndrome which I heard of Snuffy Smith even referring to by friend who takes his banjos to him. I don't think I recall any builder, repair person, disputing that they don't open up but if the real cause isn't even known, or if it's a combination (likely) how can anyone know how long it takes? The finish (just to pretend I'm staying on topic) would seem to obviously make a difference in tone but how much does it loosen up over time or effect the wood under it? If it's the wood itself, different wood,even of same type could be different.
 If anyone had discovered solid answers, we'd know about it. So what are we to beleive?  Our own ears and experiences.  Someone could have bought 3  new guitars and none of them had a great change over time. They may think opening up is baloney. Someone else may have a different experience and tell someone with certainty that thier new guitar WILL open up. My 2 Larrivee's have been on oppisite sides of the spectrum. My old L-10 not quickly or much. New 000-60 quickly and much. I would have thought it would have been my 21 year old ears that were anticipating britches browning changes (since it already sounded so good), that would have tried to lie to me. Not 50 year old ears with 35 years of continous playing, and that weren't expecting great change.  
  So how quickly? Do you blow off someone who works on a who's who list the likes of Tony Rice and companys' instruments if he says older instruments can come back to life after a day or 2 of playing? No doubt sometimes it's in someone's head, but I wouldn't make a blanket judgement about this mysterious phenom regarding time or amount of change.
 As I'm sure you'd agree with, buy the instrument for the sound it has now. Or build it with solid knowledge of immiediate effect. Use a finish that will do job but allow top to vibrate freely. Then keep your fingers crossed and see what happens.  
P.S. I appreciate the many facts about wood and building you share with us. I've learned a lot.
 

I've heard all kinds of reasons why guitars open up. I have no way of testing them so I don't really think about it much. I've had my OM-03MT for almost four years now. I think it has opened up. I remember it being tight and not having much headroom. Now it sounds pretty good for strumming which is not how I felt early on. But I honestly can't say I remember much more than how I felt about it, there's no mental soundclip I can analyze. For the player it doesn't really matter much, there are too many good sounding guitars for you to have to wait on one to open up.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2008, 02:52:00 PM »

Just to stir the pot somewhat more   bigrin - the latest Buzzword in better sound in new guitars, are application (Collings Varnish series and SantaCruz's technique of applying Nitro "very thin") and of course Hide glue!! It seems everybody who's anybody, is resorting back to the "golden era" techniques in terms of construction because apparently it crystallizes better than modern day "elastic" adhesives. The Martin Authentic series, Collings Varnish, Santa Cruz, and Bourgeois are popular brands that spring to mind. Do y'all think Jean Larrivee will "wake up" and jump into the latest and the greatest "techniques" as well?

It seems most builders think a properly applied thin finish is more important than the type of finish. Hide glue does dry harder than the AR/PVA glues and doesn't cold creep. The softer glue joint will cause more dampening and many builders think it makes a difference in sound. I highly doubt Larrivee will take up either technique.
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