Extra weight = bad sound? --- update ---

Started by pehabe, June 05, 2008, 05:49:49 AM

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Hallo all,
I am thinking of upgrading my tuner to Gotoh 510 Delta series... but from other post here I found that the extra weight on the head stock will disturb the sound.
here is the topic
Is it true? 
How is your experience Gotoh upgrader...
I would like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Peter

I've read that extra weight on the headstock may increase sustain.

I haven't noticed any disturbance in sound quality, only improvement in tuning.  The Gotohs are definately more precise.  I have the Gotoh 510's 21:1 ratio.  I am happy with them.
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Quote from: el guitana on June 05, 2008, 05:54:04 AM
I've read that extra weight on the headstock may increase sustain.
There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.
Jim Holler, Luthier
Trinity Guitars
www.TrinityGuitars.com

If you already have metal knobs I doubt there would be a weight increase. It did increase sustain in my case but it also resulted in a weaker attack. There were other sound issues but there's no point in trying to describe them. With that said, if you want to try the tuners, go for it. Different guitars react differently and to be honest I don't think everyone would be able hear the change anyway.

Quote from: TrinityGuitars on June 05, 2008, 06:44:27 AM
  There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.
It may have been the old Frets Magazine. There was and article at least around that time. For an example they suggested you put a C-clamp on head and listen to difference. Overall more mass in the neck/headstock was considered to have good effects.
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: TrinityGuitars on June 05, 2008, 06:44:27 AM
  There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your responds :D

Best regards from Black Forest Germany  :smile:

cheers,
Peter

Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 05, 2008, 06:52:35 AM
.... There were other sound issues but there's no point in trying to describe them....

Hi Jeremy3220,
thanks for responding... could you please explain more about "the other issues"?  Maybe it is useful also for newbie like me :D

cheers,
Peter


I haven't regreted putting the 510s on Mary Helen for one minute....and the pings are good enough for the Harmony they are on now.

Go for it...you can always switch back if it s a problem

Blue
OM-05MT "Mary Helen"
Silvercreek T-170
Harmony Herd (1203, 162, 165, 6362)

I just bought a set of 510 Delta's for my L-05MT snd plan on putting the stock Schaller tuners on my Washburn D-12S
jeff

Larrivee 00-03MT Forum IV  #30 of 29

Quote from: pehabe on June 05, 2008, 08:24:47 AM
Hi Jeremy3220,
thanks for responding... could you please explain more about "the other issues"?  Maybe it is useful also for newbie like me :D

cheers,
Peter

I don't mean issues like technical problems but other factors of the tone changed. Using abstract words to describe tone is very ineffectual and I try not to do it. I didn't even expect it to change the sound, it took a few days to convince myself it was different, then I conducted a few experiments to confirm that the weight was the cause, including taking the buttons completely off. I still suggest you try it, cause even after I describe the sound change you won't know what my guitar sounded like before or after, plus there's a good chance you won't hear a difference in your guitar.

Here's a somewhat relevant article from SCGC:
http://www.santacruzguitar.com/faq/index.html#neckdesign

Thanks all for replying...

I just order Gotoh SGL510z-BL5, chrome with black button.
Lets see when it comes and I will update the result.

cheers,
Peter

I bet you if I played my guitar for you, then went behind a screen and pretended to fiddle with it, then came back and said "I've changed out my tuners for heavier ones, tell me what you think"... more than 50% of people would hear a difference. More sustain! Less sustain! More filling !Less taste! ;)
2016 Martin 000-28vs 12 fret

2014 Taylor 814ce

2014 Godin Multiac Classical

2012 Gibson "The Golden Age 1930's" SJ200

2012 Squier Vintage Modified 70's Jazz Bass

2010 Gretsch Electromatic G5122DC

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2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster

1981 Rickenbacker 320JG

1968 Yamaha FG150 Red La

Quote from: drathbun on June 06, 2008, 03:11:42 PM
I bet you if I played my guitar for you, then went behind a screen and pretended to fiddle with it, then came back and said "I've changed out my tuners for heavier ones, tell me what you think"... more than 50% of people would hear a difference. More sustain! Less sustain! More filling !Less taste! ;)

:smile:

So... you are saying that the tone effect is only a suggestion?

OK, at least It should hold the tuning better than the Pings, or this is only a suggestion?  (I hope not... if true then my upgrade is for nothing :? )

cheers,
Peter

Your upgrade is not a waste of time. You'll be happier without the Pings. I put Gotoh's on my L05 and they are fantastic. You don't know you need them until you've tried good tuners.
2016 Martin 000-28vs 12 fret

2014 Taylor 814ce

2014 Godin Multiac Classical

2012 Gibson "The Golden Age 1930's" SJ200

2012 Squier Vintage Modified 70's Jazz Bass

2010 Gretsch Electromatic G5122DC

2009 Taylor GA3-12e

2004 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster

1981 Rickenbacker 320JG

1968 Yamaha FG150 Red La

Hi All,
I just received my Gotoh 510z (delta) today.  It was sent from an ebayer in USA to Germany.  Paid for 58€ including shipping and €15 for import tax.
To Admin: I know there should be not any $$$ mentioned here in forum, but I think it is interesting for non American Larrivee fan who wants to import Gotoh delta to another country, like Germany.

The tuner quality is absolute super.

So, concerning the main topic of this thread: "will the extra weight from Gotoh tuner make the sound better or worse?" please refer to the weight picture...


With this simple kitchen weighing device  :tongue: I could only tell that Gotoh is heavier approx 80-100gram.  What about the sound with this extra weight?  Honestly I could not hear the different  :blush:  This is exactly like Drathbun had said...

Gotoh 510 Delta are also drop in upgrade:


Gotohs post is actually shorter than Ping:






With 1:21 ratio, it is really a challenge turning the tuner... therefore I create a winder from door stopper and attached it to drill machine:


I am a happy camper here with this upgrade... It really makes tuning easier and accurate.
Thank you for your comment, input, suggestion, everything...

cheers,
Peter

Those are plastic buttons aren't they. This isn't relevant to the thread you referred where I mentioned that switching to metal buttons was what caused the change in sound. When I switched tuners(to metal buttons) I could feel the extra weight in the headstock.

       I say GO TOH for it.  And that string winder could be patented and sold through Stew.Mac.

Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 19, 2008, 09:18:56 PM
Those are plastic buttons aren't they. This isn't relevant to the thread you referred where I mentioned that switching to metal buttons was what caused the change in sound. When I switched tuners(to metal buttons) I could feel the extra weight in the headstock.

You are right jeremy3220... before I got my Gotoh, I didnt know the weight different between Ping and Gotoh 510 Delta.  I had searched up and down in internet and this forum for the exact weight of both tuner, no luck. So I assumed that Gotoh was more more more heavier than Ping. 
Have you weighted your Gotoh with metal button and with plastic button, Jeremy?  I am really interested of how heavy could the metal button make.

Maybe if  put 5kg extra weight at the head stock I will noticed the sound difference, right? (plus getting a muscle for my left hand) hehehe  :humour:

cheers,
Peter


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