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Author Topic: Extra weight = bad sound? --- update ---  (Read 2687 times)
pehabe
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« on: June 05, 2008, 10:49:49 AM »

Hallo all,
I am thinking of upgrading my tuner to Gotoh 510 Delta series... but from other post here I found that the extra weight on the head stock will disturb the sound.
here is the topic
Is it true? 
How is your experience Gotoh upgrader...
I would like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Peter
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el guitana
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 10:54:04 AM »

I've read that extra weight on the headstock may increase sustain.
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ncognito
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 10:57:48 AM »

I haven't noticed any disturbance in sound quality, only improvement in tuning.  The Gotohs are definately more precise.  I have the Gotoh 510's 21:1 ratio.  I am happy with them.
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TrinityGuitars
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 11:44:27 AM »

I've read that extra weight on the headstock may increase sustain.
  There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 11:52:35 AM »

If you already have metal knobs I doubt there would be a weight increase. It did increase sustain in my case but it also resulted in a weaker attack. There were other sound issues but there's no point in trying to describe them. With that said, if you want to try the tuners, go for it. Different guitars react differently and to be honest I don't think everyone would be able hear the change anyway.
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flatlander
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2008, 12:44:01 PM »

  There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.
It may have been the old Frets Magazine. There was and article at least around that time. For an example they suggested you put a C-clamp on head and listen to difference. Overall more mass in the neck/headstock was considered to have good effects.
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pehabe
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 01:22:36 PM »

  There was a study done , sorry I do not remember the source, about 15 years ago that determined that adding weight to the headstock improves the volume and sustain of a guitar by reducing the vibrations at the headstock and allowing the string energy to go more to the top. The issues is that the amount of weight was like 15 lbs or so. This made the guitar very hard to play for any time. I would not think that the small weight difference of a set of tuning machines could have any effect on the tone of the guitar.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your responds :D

Best regards from Black Forest Germany 

cheers,
Peter
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pehabe
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 01:24:47 PM »

.... There were other sound issues but there's no point in trying to describe them....

Hi Jeremy3220,
thanks for responding... could you please explain more about "the other issues"?  Maybe it is useful also for newbie like me :D

cheers,
Peter
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Blue in VT
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 04:34:09 PM »


I haven't regreted putting the 510s on Mary Helen for one minute....and the pings are good enough for the Harmony they are on now.

Go for it...you can always switch back if it s a problem

Blue
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bhika
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 04:38:20 PM »

I just bought a set of 510 Delta's for my L-05MT snd plan on putting the stock Schaller tuners on my Washburn D-12S
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 10:26:34 PM »

Hi Jeremy3220,
thanks for responding... could you please explain more about "the other issues"?  Maybe it is useful also for newbie like me :D

cheers,
Peter

I don't mean issues like technical problems but other factors of the tone changed. Using abstract words to describe tone is very ineffectual and I try not to do it. I didn't even expect it to change the sound, it took a few days to convince myself it was different, then I conducted a few experiments to confirm that the weight was the cause, including taking the buttons completely off. I still suggest you try it, cause even after I describe the sound change you won't know what my guitar sounded like before or after, plus there's a good chance you won't hear a difference in your guitar.

Here's a somewhat relevant article from SCGC:
http://www.santacruzguitar.com/faq/index.html#neckdesign
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pehabe
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 01:03:42 PM »

Thanks all for replying...

I just order Gotoh SGL510z-BL5, chrome with black button.
Lets see when it comes and I will update the result.

cheers,
Peter
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drathbun
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2008, 08:11:42 PM »

I bet you if I played my guitar for you, then went behind a screen and pretended to fiddle with it, then came back and said "I've changed out my tuners for heavier ones, tell me what you think"... more than 50% of people would hear a difference. More sustain! Less sustain! More filling !Less taste! ;)
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pehabe
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2008, 08:41:21 PM »

I bet you if I played my guitar for you, then went behind a screen and pretended to fiddle with it, then came back and said "I've changed out my tuners for heavier ones, tell me what you think"... more than 50% of people would hear a difference. More sustain! Less sustain! More filling !Less taste! ;)

 

So... you are saying that the tone effect is only a suggestion?

OK, at least It should hold the tuning better than the Pings, or this is only a suggestion?  (I hope not... if true then my upgrade is for nothing )

cheers,
Peter
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drathbun
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2008, 04:28:07 AM »

Your upgrade is not a waste of time. You'll be happier without the Pings. I put Gotoh's on my L05 and they are fantastic. You don't know you need them until you've tried good tuners.
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pehabe
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 09:51:20 PM »

Hi All,
I just received my Gotoh 510z (delta) today.  It was sent from an ebayer in USA to Germany.  Paid for 58€ including shipping and €15 for import tax.
To Admin: I know there should be not any $$$ mentioned here in forum, but I think it is interesting for non American Larrivee fan who wants to import Gotoh delta to another country, like Germany.

The tuner quality is absolute super.

So, concerning the main topic of this thread: "will the extra weight from Gotoh tuner make the sound better or worse?" please refer to the weight picture...


With this simple kitchen weighing device  I could only tell that Gotoh is heavier approx 80-100gram.  What about the sound with this extra weight?  Honestly I could not hear the different  blush  This is exactly like Drathbun had said...

Gotoh 510 Delta are also drop in upgrade:


Gotohs post is actually shorter than Ping:






With 1:21 ratio, it is really a challenge turning the tuner... therefore I create a winder from door stopper and attached it to drill machine:


I am a happy camper here with this upgrade... It really makes tuning easier and accurate.
Thank you for your comment, input, suggestion, everything...

cheers,
Peter
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 02:18:56 AM »

Those are plastic buttons aren't they. This isn't relevant to the thread you referred where I mentioned that switching to metal buttons was what caused the change in sound. When I switched tuners(to metal buttons) I could feel the extra weight in the headstock.
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Danny
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 04:51:50 AM »

       I say GO TOH for it.  And that string winder could be patented and sold through Stew.Mac.
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pehabe
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 06:52:53 AM »

Those are plastic buttons aren't they. This isn't relevant to the thread you referred where I mentioned that switching to metal buttons was what caused the change in sound. When I switched tuners(to metal buttons) I could feel the extra weight in the headstock.

You are right jeremy3220... before I got my Gotoh, I didnt know the weight different between Ping and Gotoh 510 Delta.  I had searched up and down in internet and this forum for the exact weight of both tuner, no luck. So I assumed that Gotoh was more more more heavier than Ping. 
Have you weighted your Gotoh with metal button and with plastic button, Jeremy?  I am really interested of how heavy could the metal button make.

Maybe if  put 5kg extra weight at the head stock I will noticed the sound difference, right? (plus getting a muscle for my left hand) hehehe 

cheers,
Peter
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pehabe
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 08:56:10 AM »

...And that string winder could be patented and sold through Stew.Mac.

    +1

 
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