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Author Topic: Climate Affected Fnish Issues with my Larrivee D-09B  (Read 17959 times)
george kraushaar
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2007, 03:03:23 AM »

Larrivee certainly wasn't using a nitro finish in 1999.  They have used poly for some time, and before that they were using another synthetic finish like Fullerplast.  I've had Larrivees since 1993 or so and none of them were nitro.  My guess is that someone has oversprayed this guitar at some point with nitro, if indeed is now has a nitro finish.  I find it hard to believe that Larrivee let a high end guitar like that slip through the cracks
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Sterling30
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2007, 06:32:36 AM »

   I think I figured out what happened now. Not only was the guitar shipped in a in a Takaminie case which doesn't seem right, I recall now looking inside the guitar and seeing some glue droppings on the bottom, top-side, Looking at it closer I saw a lot of glue upper side wall and it really struck me oddly that Larrivee could build such a beautiful guitar but leave the glue mess they did. And this is even on record at ebay cause since this was my first Larrivee guitar, I did not know that Larrivee put a sticker on the upper side wall so I has no idea at the time what that glue was doing there or how some of it got on the bottom of the guitar. So I called Larrivee cause my main concern is that it might bleed through the wood and cause problem later in time. They said it was nothing to worry about and informed me that where they put a sticker so it was nothing to worry about. Then I had a guitar tech look over that spot briefly and he said it was nothing to worry about either so I dropped the dispute.

   Now that I think of it though..., why was that sticker missing and for what reason was it removed???

  That explains the spots of glue on the bottom also..., Larrivee did not send that guitar from the factory with the sticker removed from it.., it was done with heat, that would explain the extra spots and there was something on that sticker that obviously someone did not want a person who was buying that guitar to see..., like "Factory Second" is what first comes to mind..

   Think about it... How many Larrivees leave the factory with a sticker intact on the sidewall out of sight and why would anyone go through the trouble of removing that sticker and leave the glue mess behind???

   What possible other reason could there be??? 

   No original case, no paperwork, no side sticker from the factory.. (deliberately removed..)

   That guitar did not develop those imperfections doing nothing.., it left the factory that way and obviously the removed sticker documented it was indeed a flawed guitar..., that's why it was later removed..., that's the only possible reason someone would go through so much trouble to remove it.

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Peter Cree
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2007, 11:15:12 AM »

This is definitely the case of the missing case.  Thats the big clue here.

also George, Larrivee offered nitro finishes up until a few years ago (4 or 5) as an option.  I remember seeing that on their web-site while I was in New Mexico.  This doesn't happen to UV poly.

Sterling, don't completely despair.  The finish can be repaired.  Yes, you're out a bit of change but most of the value and sound can be retained.  I'd try to get a 1000.00 USD from the guy who sold it to you though.   Its still a beautiful and rare guitar.

Also if you're in England, I wouldn't try to send it across any border.  the Braz. needs special CITES paperwork or it will be confiscated.
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Peter
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Tycho
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2007, 12:57:04 PM »

I still don't understand why you think this happened at the factory.  You're making a lot of assumptions that don't strike me as all that likely (for example that Larrivee would ship one of its guitars in a Takamine case), but at the same time you're taking someone's word that the guitar sat pretty much undisturbed for seven years after leaving the factory and that nothing was done to it in that time period.  To me, that's the weak link in the chain.
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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2007, 01:20:03 PM »

   I think I figured out what happened now. Not only was the guitar shipped in a in a Takaminie case which doesn't seem right, I recall now looking inside the guitar and seeing some glue droppings on the bottom, top-side, Looking at it closer I saw a lot of glue upper side wall and it really struck me oddly that Larrivee could build such a beautiful guitar but leave the glue mess they did. And this is even on record at ebay cause since this was my first Larrivee guitar, I did not know that Larrivee put a sticker on the upper side wall so I has no idea at the time what that glue was doing there or how some of it got on the bottom of the guitar. So I called Larrivee cause my main concern is that it might bleed through the wood and cause problem later in time. They said it was nothing to worry about and informed me that where they put a sticker so it was nothing to worry about. Then I had a guitar tech look over that spot briefly and he said it was nothing to worry about either so I dropped the dispute.

   Now that I think of it though..., why was that sticker missing and for what reason was it removed???

  That explains the spots of glue on the bottom also..., Larrivee did not send that guitar from the factory with the sticker removed from it.., it was done with heat, that would explain the extra spots and there was something on that sticker that obviously someone did not want a person who was buying that guitar to see..., like "Factory Second" is what first comes to mind..

   Think about it... How many Larrivees leave the factory with a sticker intact on the sidewall out of sight and why would anyone go through the trouble of removing that sticker and leave the glue mess behind???

   What possible other reason could there be??? 

   No original case, no paperwork, no side sticker from the factory.. (deliberately removed..)

   That guitar did not develop those imperfections doing nothing.., it left the factory that way and obviously the removed sticker documented it was indeed a flawed guitar..., that's why it was later removed..., that's the only possible reason someone would go through so much trouble to remove it.



Sterling, I feel for you, but as Peter states, it can be repaired. And it really is a beautiful guitar. And Braz no less.

I can't say for positive but maybe the sticker you are referring to is like the one that is on the upper side wall of my guitar. I don't know for sure what it was there for but I assumed they put them on all the body's as they were built so if they installed a barn door pickup as they are referred to by some people, there wouldn't be any splintering of the wood when cutting the hole in the side. Here is a photo of where that sticker is.


I think the missing case from a guitar that was basically never used is a huge question. Do factory seconds typically not come with an OHSC? And does Larrivee even sell seconds?

What I don't understand is why Jean Larrivee the guitar builder with 2 factories at his disposal would sell a "second" guitar with a finish problem. Why wouldn't he just fix it and sell it as new stock. After all they do repair guitars there. Not to mention the fact that why would he want his name on something like that. After all this is not just an entry level guitar, its a Brazilian that he would have to know would get a lot of attention.
 
I'm not a professional woodworker like Peter but I don't see why if the finish looked like that at the factory they couldn't have just sanded and buffed it out with their huge buffing machines. I'm more inclined to believe that it was caused from something after the factory. But the only person that really knows that answer is the original owner.

Just so you know, the finish on my collectors edition is not perfect but the sound quality far makes up for any small imperfections that I can see. And I'm a very picky person  when it comes to finishes on anything.
I don't know how long you had the guitar before selling it, but I second what Peter says about trying to get something back from the dealer.

I wish you the best of luck,
Roger
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Sterling30
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2007, 03:08:23 PM »


   I just checked my SD-50, it has the sticker but it's blank also..., still strange anyone would remove a blank sticker and leave such a mess behind on a guitar like that.

   Gibson would stamp a 2 in the back of a headstock for a factory second, some companies stamp "USED" so they know it's second quality, every company that I'm aware of will sell 2nd quality guitars wich such a mark so the buyer knows it's second quality and I assume Larrivee is no different..

   So..., where does Larrivee mark there second quality guitars when they are sold to the public?
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Sterling30
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2007, 03:43:20 PM »

This is definitely the case of the missing case.  Thats the big clue here.

also George, Larrivee offered nitro finishes up until a few years ago (4 or 5) as an option.  I remember seeing that on their web-site while I was in New Mexico.  This doesn't happen to UV poly.

Sterling, don't completely despair.  The finish can be repaired.  Yes, you're out a bit of change but most of the value and sound can be retained.  I'd try to get a 1000.00 USD from the guy who sold it to you though.   Its still a beautiful and rare guitar.

Also if you're in England, I wouldn't try to send it across any border.  the Braz. needs special CITES paperwork or it will be confiscated.

   The only way I'd get any money back from the seller is going the legal route and even then I might as well whistle Dixi though ebay may reopen a new dispute with the new info on this guitar..

   Now I have found out that Larrivee sells Factory Seconds through it's dealers though one salesman thought that they're unmarked second quality guitars which just doesn't seem right for the consumer to end up with one without having anyway of knowing it's second quality..

   That doesn't sound like a good way to do business..

    I did call his store on an advertised Larrivee Second but he couldn't check if the sticker was marked because the guitar was allready sold..

  No company sells Factory Seconds without them being marked as such. So where does Larrivee mark their Factory Second guitars???

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Tycho
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2007, 04:17:16 PM »


We are not mindless Larrivee-defenders here and I think we're prepared to consider the possibility that the company sent out a bad guitar.  But you have in no way demonstrated that.  It's equally possible, if not far more likely, that something happened to the guitar in the seven years after it left the factory. 

I find it quite strange that you're prepared to jump to the conclusion that this issue must have been Larrivee's fault, yet you're not prepared to consider the possibilty that something bad happened to the guitar in the very long time that elapsed after it left the factory.  And I have a very hard time believing that Larrivee would send a guitar out in another manufacturer's case.  The fact that the guitar came to you in such a case is to my mind pretty strong indication that something strange happened to the guitar during those seven years.

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Sterling30
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2007, 04:39:10 PM »

We are not mindless Larrivee-defenders here and I think we're prepared to consider the possibility that the company sent out a bad guitar.  But you have in no way demonstrated that.  It's equally possible, if not far more likely, that something happened to the guitar in the seven years after it left the factory. 

I find it quite strange that you're prepared to jump to the conclusion that this issue must have been Larrivee's fault, yet you're not prepared to consider the possibilty that something bad happened to the guitar in the very long time that elapsed after it left the factory.  And I have a very hard time believing that Larrivee would send a guitar out in another manufacturer's case.  The fact that the guitar came to you in such a case is to my mind pretty strong indication that something strange happened to the guitar during those seven years.



    I don't discount your suggestion completely bat at the moment I'd really like to know how many other upper-inside  stickers have been removed from Larrivee guitars and for what possible reason would they be removed?

   And if you're a dealer can you state here how Larrivee marks their 2nd-quality guitars so a consumer buying one will in fact know the guitar they are buying is 2nd. quality?
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jimmy buffett
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2007, 04:47:21 PM »

      Or did it come from the factory without a case because it was never sent out till many years after it was built and I might in fact have been the original owner when I took delivery of this guitar approx 3 month ago?. The condition this guitar is in would suggest this is a real possibility..


For what it's worth, I bought a Brazilian D09 last year that was five years old.  It had been kept in the showroom in Larrivee's Vancouver office as a display model, at which point it was offered for sale through a dealer.  While I was the "original owner", it did come with a quality Larrivee case.   

I think that even if your's was first sold several years after it's manufacture date, they would still have provided you with a Larrivee case.  I agree that if it sat in it's case for several years without being played, it is interesting that it was not in it's original Larrivee style case...
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bhika
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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2007, 05:08:38 PM »

That is not a sticker but a thin piece of ebony. put there to strengthen the side wood in case someone wanted to install electronics It has been discussed in previous threads if you want to search.
Also I remember one of our on line dealers saying that although Larrivee no longer sells it blems or seconds, they at one time did. It was also said that they did not put any special markings on them to indicate they were blems. It was up to the dealer to inform the person buying it and to offer it at a discounted price.
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jeff

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Sterling30
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2007, 05:30:03 PM »

That is not a sticker but a thin piece of ebony. put there to strengthen the side wood in case someone wanted to install electronics It has been discussed in previous threads if you want to search.
Also I remember one of our on line dealers saying that although Larrivee no longer sells it blems or seconds, they at one time did. It was also said that they did not put any special markings on them to indicate they were blems. It was up to the dealer to inform the person buying it and to offer it at a discounted price.

   Well I must say that's very honorable of Larrivee to dump their Factory Seconds to dealers and not find it important that the consumers who buy those guitars are aware of that, I wonder if Larrivee will verify that here.

   The ebony section is understood but then why would anyone feel the need to remove it still? By the glue residue left behind it obviously came off it several pieces, not one so removing it to reuse it somewhere else was not the reason it was taken from the inside of this guitar..

   The only conceivable reason I can think of was because it may have had a very large number "2" stamped into it..
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Tycho
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2007, 05:45:23 PM »

Quote
And if you're a dealer can you state here how Larrivee marks their 2nd-quality guitars so a consumer buying one will in fact know the guitar they are buying is 2nd. quality?

I'm not a dealer, just a plain old guitar buyer.  I don't have a horse in this race. 
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Sterling30
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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2007, 08:06:49 PM »


   I must say it's very interesting indeed that when I spoke to the person at Larrivee when I was worried about that glue on the side he for some reason he wasn't aware that's where a solid piece of ebony was, he said it was a paper label instead...

   This from one of the techs at Larrivee who answers question pertaining to Larrivees guitars, the ones that come out of the factory where he works at, and he didn't know that was a solid piece of ebony that glued to that part of the guitar..

   Interesting indeed...............

   
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Peter Cree
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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2007, 08:17:53 PM »

So lets try to solve this problem.

Martin cuts their seconds in half with a bandsaw no matter how expensive the guitar is.   Didn't know anyone else sold seconds. 

Ok, back to the topic.   This didn't leave the factory this way.  I'm sure of that.   The e-bay seller is the problem.  Yes, you can get legal and that would cost?...................................so forget that.

The solution is to repair the finish.   Easy enough.  But you're in England? true?  I'd get it repaired and add the expense to the price of the guitar.   Since its Braz., another 1000.00USD isn't so far out of line.  I think you could eventually recoup this loss.   

If the seller is a guitar dealer off of e-bay you might have some chance with British consumers rights.

Sorry this happened to you and all involved.

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Peter
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Sterling30
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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2007, 08:35:32 PM »

So lets try to solve this problem.

Martin cuts their seconds in half with a bandsaw no matter how expensive the guitar is.   Didn't know anyone else sold seconds. 

Ok, back to the topic.   This didn't leave the factory this way.  I'm sure of that.   The e-bay seller is the problem.  Yes, you can get legal and that would cost?...................................so forget that.

The solution is to repair the finish.   Easy enough.  But you're in England? true?  I'd get it repaired and add the expense to the price of the guitar.   Since its Braz., another 1000.00USD isn't so far out of line.  I think you could eventually recoup this loss.   

If the seller is a guitar dealer off of e-bay you might have some chance with British consumers rights.

Sorry this happened to you and all involved.



   Right now I'm more concerned how large this problem could be besides myself meaning how many other people out there paid a premium for a Larrivee guitar not knowing what they received was in fact a factory second.. (And Larrivee does sell factory seconds through dealers.., do a search)

   And if those are marked on a solid piece of ebony glued to the sidewall..., how many other Larrivee owners may have had that ebony block also removed from their guitars???

   And how can justice be done if something this underhanded is indeed going on???

   I think that's what class action lawsuits are for...
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12barBill
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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2007, 08:38:50 PM »

 cop  Class action lawsuit?   cop
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Tycho
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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2007, 08:40:48 PM »

Sterling, take a deep breath.  I don't think you're listening to what people here are trying to tell you.  Re-read Peter Cree's post again.


And I too am truly sorry this has happened to you.  It really sucks.  But for what it's worth, I can't see any indication from any of the information you've posted that it was Larrivee's fault.
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Sterling30
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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2007, 09:18:13 PM »


   Let's see.., I've got a guitar with the ebony block forcible removed from it and a well-known Larrivee rep didn't know that was a solid ebony block that was glued there??? He thought it was a company sticker glued there? A major Larrivee rep?

    Do you think I might be able  locate a few other similar Larrivee owners on Youtube who have the same problem???

   I guarrantee you..., this guitar is going to be made right...
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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2007, 10:06:48 PM »

Sterling30,
Read this thread for info on the black patch

http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=12218.0

Maybe the original owner removed it because he thought it affected the sound. Maybe when he tried to remove it he scratched the guitar up and thought he could just spray some type of clearcoat over it. Maybe he put it back in the case to soon after spraying it and had to replace the case.
Just throwing other possible scenarios out there.

No original case, black reinforcement piece missing, finish marred. These are things that you should be getting answers for from the dealer you bought the guitar from. Are they still an authorized dealer?
I read what I wrote several times and thought that it may sound nasty. Please do not take it that way, I have nothing but genuine concern for your problem, as I'm sure all the other forum members do.
Roger
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Roger


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