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Author Topic: Climate Affected Fnish Issues with my Larrivee D-09B  (Read 17208 times)
sparkysings
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« on: June 07, 2007, 10:26:28 AM »

Hi everyone,

I'm, new to this forum and in fact, have never participated in a forum before. I have just purchased a 1999 D-09B (Brazilian) that appears to have what is referred to as "orange peeling" on the high gloss finish. I spoke to the local Larrivee Dealer and was told that it was a a finish flaw and that it occurred when it was sprayed at the factory during excess humidity. He said the only way to correct it was to refinish the guitar.

I then called Larrivee and was told it is a climate problem that resulted from the way it was stored and never would have left the factory that way. He said it can be buffed out by hand and suggested that I visit this forum for assistance.

Has anyone every encountered this problem before and if so, is there a way to correct it, without affecting the tone? I have read the forum on polishing the 03, but am not sure if that would be solution for this problem. I would appreciate any help the forum members could provide as I am quite anxious to correct the problem.

Thank you, sparkysings
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Sparkysings

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Denis
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2007, 12:07:02 PM »

Hi everyone,

I'm, new to this forum and in fact, have never participated in a forum before. I have just purchased a 1999 D-09B (Brazilian) that appears to have what is referred to as "orange peeling" on the high gloss finish. I spoke to the local Larrivee Dealer and was told that it was a a finish flaw and that it occurred when it was sprayed at the factory during excess humidity. He said the only way to correct it was to refinish the guitar.

I then called Larrivee and was told it is a climate problem that resulted from the way it was stored and never would have left the factory that way. He said it can be buffed out by hand and suggested that I visit this forum for assistance.

Has anyone every encountered this problem before and if so, is there a way to correct it, without affecting the tone? I have read the forum on polishing the 03, but am not sure if that would be solution for this problem. I would appreciate any help the forum members could provide as I am quite anxious to correct the problem.

Thank you, sparkysings

First off, welcome to the forum.  I would tend to believe that Larrivee is right on the response.  A Brazillian rosewood guitar would not leave the factory with any flaws...it just wouldn't.  The reason they suggested that you ask the question here is that we do have at least one expert on wood finishes that posts here regularly.  If I were you I would try to get in touch with Peter Cree.  His website is www.creestudios.com.  Peter is an artist and antique restorer.  He lives in Bethlehem, PA right now but will soon be relocating to Nazareth, the home of Martin guitars.  He could help you with any problems you've got with finishes.  I suggest you take several photos of this problem area and send them to him...post them here as well, maybe some of the other members could help? 

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sparkysings
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 03:10:06 PM »

Thanks Denis,

I will contact Peter Cree regarding the finish. I will try to take some pictures of the finish and post them, but it is very difficult to capture on camera. The "orange peeling" is all over the guitar, including the top, although it's harder to see there. I just sold a 1967 Martin D 28 I owned for 40 years and never had any issues with the finish. That, in fact, is why I bought the Larrivee and a custom built Morgan with Englemann top and Masterclass Walnut back and sides. They are 2 entirely different guitars. Almost in the same family in that Dave Iannone apprenticed with Jean Larrivee.

sparkysings
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Sparkysings

2007 Mark Kett Custom Bearclaw Sitka & Rippled Mahogany OM
2007 Morgan Custom Concert CQW
2006 L'Benito GA Alerce & Bolivian Mahogany
2005 Martin 000-16SGT
Larrivee J-03RE
2001 Takamine EG523  Jumbo 12 String
Composite Acoustics X-RT
Denis
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 03:23:02 PM »

Wow, very nice!!!

A custom Morgan with Engelmann and walnut...AND a Larrivee D-09 with Braz RW back and sides...sound like a nice mix...
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sparkysings
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 03:41:15 PM »

Thanks again Denis,

I got a good price when I sold the Martin, which I didn't play anymore. I bought the Morgan, which is an amazing guitar and then the Larrivee became available. I had planned on saving the remanider of the proceeds.....however, that plan went out the window when I saw the Larrivee. I also owned a Larrivee LV-03RE which was a fantastic guitar that I had to sell to finance the extra cost of the D-09B. Anyone else out there suffering from "guitar madness"?

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Sparkysings

2007 Mark Kett Custom Bearclaw Sitka & Rippled Mahogany OM
2007 Morgan Custom Concert CQW
2006 L'Benito GA Alerce & Bolivian Mahogany
2005 Martin 000-16SGT
Larrivee J-03RE
2001 Takamine EG523  Jumbo 12 String
Composite Acoustics X-RT
Tycho
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2007, 03:44:21 PM »

Quote
Anyone else out there suffering from "guitar madness"?


Oh, maybe a few of us....

My own story along these lines is that when I was shopping for Larrivees, I had given myself a budget of between $2500 and $3000 (Cdn.)  When I realized that a D-03RE would give me everything I wanted for less than half of that, I turned around and bought a D-03-12 the same weekend with the money I had "saved".

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...and several other guitars.
Denis
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2007, 05:08:01 PM »

Anyone else out there suffering from "guitar madness"?

We like to call it GAS...Guitar Acquisition Syndrome
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Peter Cree
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2007, 12:30:26 PM »

Orange peel can ONLY happen during spraying.  Its a factory flaw and should be repaired by the factory.

To call and be told that its from storage is dumb.  Or evasive.  Or both. 

Stuff like this really bugs me.   To screw up the finish and send it out anyway then refuse to act on your mistake , makes Larrivee look really bad.
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Peter
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2007, 02:17:14 PM »

Sparkysings
Are you sure it is "orange peel". Can you post some pic's that show the problem? If it is orange peel I agree with Peter that it can only happen from application.

Peter
I'm a retired auto paint sprayer and my LV-19 had what looked like (what we called solvent pop or gassing) on the back. The dealer called it bubbling. The factory said they used a quality piece of rosewood that happened to soak up the finish more and that even though they used a sealer they only apply a light finish to preserve sound quality and that sometimes that happens. They repaired it under warranty, by that I mean they rebuffed it and it looks really good, although I can still make out the microspots if I hold it in the light just right. I'm very happy with the way it looks. My question to you is have you ever seen this type of situation in a guitar finish before?
Thanks for your expertise Peter,
Roger
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Roger


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Sterling30
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2007, 03:18:20 PM »


   Are there any photograhs that can be posted here of this orange peeling effect? I want to see exactly what is wrong here.
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sparkysings
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2007, 04:15:19 PM »

The "orange peel" effect was identified by John Sharples, the owner of Sled Dog Music in Winnipeg. John is a long time Larrivee Dealer and Instrument Repair person. Check his web site out at: www.sleddogmusic.com . The guitar is currently at his shop and he is attempting to get ahold of a builder in town who might give some idea of what it would take to repair it. I might not be able to take a picture until I return form a short camping trip with my wife on Friday and even then may have difficulty with my limited photography skills. The posted pictures that advertised the guitar did not show this defect.

As for the effect, it is neither satin, nor a high gloss finish, but is duller and resembles an orange peel. This effect is not just confined to the back and sides, but is also on the top.

Thank you Peter for you kind information which just confims what John said. I will attempt to leave a message with Larrivee before Monday.
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Sparkysings

2007 Mark Kett Custom Bearclaw Sitka & Rippled Mahogany OM
2007 Morgan Custom Concert CQW
2006 L'Benito GA Alerce & Bolivian Mahogany
2005 Martin 000-16SGT
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2001 Takamine EG523  Jumbo 12 String
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Sterling30
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2007, 05:03:59 PM »



I found these extra photos..















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sparkysings
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2007, 09:17:31 PM »

I have taken some pictures which show the bumpy or orange peel effect. Because of the gloss finish it is difficult to photograph, but can be easily seen. I'm not sure how to post photos. Could someone please help me as I don't know how to enable attachements option? Thanks...
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Sparkysings

2007 Mark Kett Custom Bearclaw Sitka & Rippled Mahogany OM
2007 Morgan Custom Concert CQW
2006 L'Benito GA Alerce & Bolivian Mahogany
2005 Martin 000-16SGT
Larrivee J-03RE
2001 Takamine EG523  Jumbo 12 String
Composite Acoustics X-RT
Sterling30
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2007, 10:42:53 PM »

   Host the image to the net than post the url between [img]  [/im g]
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Peter Cree
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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2007, 01:15:25 PM »

I see nothing from those pics. above but saw orange peel from the ones sent to me.

Rosewood can have some inherent problems.   Having nitro sticking problems are nothing new.  I recently had a martin Marquis that just would not take a spot repair.   Usually the vinyl sealer takes care of that but some wood will have a very resistant oil.

that is a gorgeous guitar though.

Finishing has a squirrelly  nature to it.   Never had the bubble problem but have had plenty of orange peel even with proper temp control.  Sometimes hand oil can cause it.  Sometimes polishes.   Waxes.    The planet Jupiter................

I'll check out the pics sent to me again.
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Peter
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2007, 01:47:53 PM »

Ok, just downloaded and checked the pics sent to me.  Very tough to see without a macro shot.

The back shot especially shows this.    I'm not sure its orange peel anymore.  It looks like a problem with the interaction of the sealer and the nitro.

Its not like the bubbling shown above.  It covers large areas.  In fact it looks like what happens if someone uses bug repellent  and puts it back in its case.  something like that.  Some peoples sweat can actually do this.

Just looked closely at Sterlings pics.  The final one of the back seems to show orange peel.   Upper left bout on the back.  But thats not what I'm seeing on sparky's pics.  Sparky's is more of a crumpling effect.  the finish looks softened and then shows imprint of the case lining.

OK, now you've got my interest................this vexes me....................I'll look closer ,again.   you know sparky , it might be after-factory.   we all should now ease up on Larrivee until we figure this out.



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Peter
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2007, 02:51:14 PM »

OK, I hate to speculate not having seen it in person or photos that really show the problem (I have taken many many photos trying to capture a problem and have not been able to, usually because of reflections) but is it possable someone tried to apply a clear coat of some sort over the existing finish? Just a thought.
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Roger


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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2007, 03:47:49 PM »

   A brief history on this guitar. The original owner was a collector who never took it iut of the case, I played it no more than a few hours so to say the guitar has zero play wear on it is very accurate.

   One problem with the photos you are seeing it reflection of loght passing through a window is making what may not be and I feel was never intended to be the mirror glass-like finish you see come from the Samick factory in Korea or on a Blueridge guitar from China and really exaggerates what again I'm not convinced are actual flaws in the finish because the photos are using refractive light.

For example.., the reflection photographed does not accurately show the real finish, instend what is being seen most are imperfections of the light passing through the window .



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Sterling30
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2007, 03:52:10 PM »

   This photo I believe is a gross distortion of what I still believe is the correct finish for that guitar, again using refractive light..




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Sterling30
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2007, 03:55:04 PM »


   This photo may be closer to being accurate but I still believe the light used distorts what I'm still not convinced are finish flaws in the guitar..

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