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Author Topic: Elephant Ivory Saddles?  (Read 5680 times)
bearsville0
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« on: March 10, 2007, 02:10:35 PM »

HI all,

I'm thinking about getting an elephant saddle based on the description on the Colosi website. It might fit in well with the sound I'm after.

However,  I would like to hear any opinions, not just about the tone differences, but also any ethical issues.

Now, there have been threads here over the last two years with convincing arguments against inadvertantly contributing to the poacher trade. But are there any updates on the situation? I don't know who to believe and need a few pointers.

Donuts to all, and thanks in advance.
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el guitana
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 04:04:04 PM »

I won't get specific on this issue, but I offer this: If you have a nagging doubt, then you should not indulge. That seems to me to be a part of how ethics work.
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Celticjam
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 07:40:06 PM »

Amen.  Do the right thing.
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flute
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 11:00:28 PM »

if you have to ask, you already know the answer,the sound you should be after is "a guilt free sound"
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bearsville0
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 01:14:39 AM »

Thanks for the responses,

Obviously I'm leaning toward rejecting the idea, but  I ask because I DON"T know the answer.  If all those who doubted the existence of god knew the answer, well..... there would be no debate and no truth.

As long as I have a nagging doubt I will take el guitana's recommendation.
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flute
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 01:21:14 AM »

to believe in God you need faith,to believe it is wrong to stick a bit of elephant in your guitar you need sense!
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bearsville0
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 01:35:57 AM »

I'm a firm believer in senseless acts of kindness.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 01:37:02 AM »

Thanks for the responses,

Obviously I'm leaning toward rejecting the idea, but  I ask because I DON"T know the answer.  If all those who doubted the existence of god knew the answer, well..... there would be no debate and no truth.

As long as I have a nagging doubt I will take el guitana's recommendation.


I applaud you for thinking, bearsville0. I'm not saying that tongue in cheek or anything, I mean it. Sorry I don't have an answer to your question though.
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flute
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 01:47:44 AM »

                             
                       "If it sounds good, it is good"  Duke Ellington


"If it sounds good (and contains no elephant) it is good" Flute
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bearsville0
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 02:00:57 AM »

"If it sounds good (and contains no elephant) it is good" Flute

This may well be true.

 I was hoping to broaden the case. If Bob Coluci sells 'em, folks are buying 'em. I thinks it's fair to ask why. I only asked for any updates to counter the obvious argument that poaching endangered animals is wrong.

Oh, and no offense, but does it make sense to have bits of abalone in a guitar?
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bob_d
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 02:09:28 AM »

Use Fossilized Walrus Ivory, Bearsville0. It's a good substitute for Elephant Ivory and no one is killing Fossilized Walruses. 

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expatCanuck
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 04:08:58 AM »

No question that the ivory looks (and sounds) better on the elephant.

 - Richard
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jimmyd
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 04:34:52 AM »

I think you are doing the right thing by asking for opinions on a public forum and thanks for doing so. The poaching problem has really worsened in the last few years. I just can't believe that the international ivory dealers can truly verify their sources as legal.  Here's a link to just one article if you are interested.
http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0226-elephants.html
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bearsville0
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 04:52:24 AM »

Wow Jimmyd!

that was the kind of current information I was looking for. Thanks for the link (and the support for asking).

My mind is made up. I'll stick with the Tusq for now.

And get the white rhino horn later.  (no, no, just kidding!!!)

Thanks to everybody. This is a GREAT forum.
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ElJefe
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 11:10:42 AM »

Things I wished I had said #47:

"Live Simply, so that others can simply live."

Elephants and people.
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woody b
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 02:55:45 PM »

I don't get it.  Why is it OK to use bone from already dead cows but it's not OK to use Ivory from already deal Elephants?     
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jimmyd
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 03:39:52 PM »

I don't get it.  Why is it OK to use bone from already dead cows but it's not OK to use Ivory from already deal Elephants?     

There are millions of cows in the USA alone. Bone used for instruments is collected at rendering plants of domestic animals. Elephants whose numbers are in dramatic decline are being illegally poached just for their tusks.
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Queequeg
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2007, 02:56:53 PM »

"fossilized" is a misnomer, and obfuscates the ethical issues.
These are certainly not fossils.
Pre-1950s I think is the latitude given.
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LawDogStrgsAttach
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2007, 03:50:30 PM »

A few issues here:

1) The general logic early on that suggested that doubt = an answer.  If that is the case, what is the worth in wrestling with perspectives to any problem?  The use of our higher faculties constantly involves doubt since that pressure in our thoughts leads our rationality.  If only life were that simple as to negate the process of weighing arguments and perspectives and just yield to doubt!

2) There is such thing as legal ivory.  It is either a) harvested well before the time of rampant poaching of endangered elephants or b) ivory that is managed from naturally dead elephants  or harvested within govt regs. 

Colosi's ivory is documented, so it falls under one of the categories above.  I think it would be better that if a person is offended by any ivory, then exercise that by a) not purchasing and b) telling others privately.  I think public uninformed discourse, similar to what we are encroaching in this thread, is damaging to dealers and artisans - B. Colosi in this case.

If he was found to deal in illegal ivory, I'd be the first to lead the charge.  But like our CITES EIR or Mahogany, Colosi is following the rules.  Let's make better distinctions in our logic and in the legality of bad vs. good ivory.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2007, 04:01:40 PM »

The legality of the ivory was not in question. He was wrestling with or trying to define his own ethical stance on the issue.

Many of us don't buy products that are completely legal simply because they offend our personal sense of ethics.
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