Larrivee Guitar Forum

Main Forums => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: nataliesilva on September 23, 2017, 05:10:40 PM



Title: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 23, 2017, 05:10:40 PM
Hello,

This is my first post on the site.  Just wanna say congrats to everyone on being of the Larrivee owning breed.  Some of the best guitars! 

So about 4 years ago.  I travelled to Texas w/the Air Force, let my husband keep the guitar over a week since at that time I was in the barracks, he was in a small apartment a mile away.  I guess their humidity was so low at the apartment, (and obviously just Texas!), that I opened the case a week later and ugh!, a crack!  I went to see a local shop and they told me to hydrate the guitar.  Life happened and here I am today. 

Over the last couple weeks, I've really been hydrating it with this Oasis sound hole humidifier.  The crack has really started to close up to almost an unnoticeable range(at least in some angles.)  I ordered an extendable mirror so I can see the interior side of the top.  The crack does not run through.  It looks perfect inside, certain the crack never ran that deep. 

I'm thinking I will hydrate a little longer and see how it continues to close up or if it's reached the furthest it will close up. 

Sound is unaffected.  Still a great sounding guitar.  The crack is almost unnoticeable, I just don't want neglect of a repair I may need to do to eventually turn into a really messed up guitar. 

So my questions are:

Looking at the picture, would you fill the crack w/glue or just leave it and monitor/continually use a humidifier(as should be done)?

And if you would fill with glue, would you cleat, being the interior is seamless/perfect? 

Also interested in hearing if some other repair is more suitable. 



I'm sort of looking for advice from individuals with some experience in this type of crack, possibly a luthier would be awesome.  Depending on how intricate the repair is, I think I'd feel comfortable doing it myself. 


Thanks for your input! 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on September 23, 2017, 06:00:04 PM
If there is no dipping in front of the bridge then I wouldn't worry to much about it being dry.Find yourself a good tech and have the cracked checked for if its a finish crack only it it is a wood crack have it glued up.If I can be of any help my number is on my website and my website is listed in my profile.Call,PM or email me.Calling always best. :wave


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 23, 2017, 06:49:57 PM
Alright.  Yeah I don't see any dipping. What would mark the difference between finish and wood cracks?  Is the finish more surface only? It definitely was a larger split in the wood but the hydration closed it up. 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on September 23, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
Sometime's when guitars dry out the first thing to crack is the poly finish.If hydration closed the wood you will need to add glue so the wood stays attached to each side of the crack.If you don't have anyone to fix it please call me I help you over the phone.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 23, 2017, 11:44:48 PM
 In a thread called "The O project" I showed how I stabilized a crack with a thin maple patch, using a trick to get the patch where it needed to be.
    Since photobucket messed us all over, I am not sure the pix are there anymore.
     Be sure to watch the humidity and keep your guitar above 45% most of the time, if you can.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:01:00 AM
I just checked, all the pictures are being held for ransom by Photobucket.
I'll never give them a dime, after how much damage they have done to my repair,rebuild,refinish topics.

Sorry for the rant.

Just use some Titebond original white wood glue on the crack. Wet it a little first. Massage the glue into the crack. Wipe off the excess with a clean damp cloth. Leave it for a day or so.
   If the crack was in the wood it should be stable after that, if it doesn't get dried out real bad again.

   Eventually the crack will collect dirt and a dark line will show up.
But, just keep playing. It will survive.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 24, 2017, 12:25:53 AM
Thank you for the replies!  That sucks they got rid of your post.  I'll check out what you wrote though.  So white titebond.  Do you think cleats are necessary?  And after the glue and the rest time, is there any finishing coat for blending purpose, or you just let it ride from there?  I guess the D03r has a mostly matte finish.  I can live without absolute perfection, cause it still sounds like a Larrivee.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:31:14 AM
 I've never used cleats. I'm sure they have their place, but for me it's just needing some wood glue.
 Satin, or matte finish is about impossible to repair. You either gloss the top, or make it a Sunburst with gloss.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on September 24, 2017, 12:32:31 AM
Use the yellow wood glue from Titebond.There's not much you can do about the finish just get it glued up and then play the cr*p out of it and ENJOY.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 24, 2017, 12:36:55 AM
Thanks man!  I might post results. haha 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:37:32 AM
On the O Project, it had three cracks and I changed the color of the top to hide them. It was not easy though.

    White or yellow Titebond is fine. I guess we all have our favorites.

    Truth is if it was mine I'd probably use hot hide glue. Because it flows like water and cleans up easy. But  so does Titebond.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 24, 2017, 12:42:48 AM
Yeah I wish I could see the pictures you had posted.  The internet!  Hot hide glue huh?  I've never heard of that, so I'll definitely have to check it out. 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:49:42 AM
The O Project was a GOTM (GUITAR OF THE MONTH) in July 2015. There is a pic of it there in the Pictures Topic Hall of Fame GOTM. I'm trying to post that pic. But not good at it.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:52:36 AM
 There it is. I glossed the sides and back, as well as lots of other stuff. But it has 3 top cracks.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 12:55:40 AM
Yeah I wish I could see the pictures you had posted.  The internet!  Hot hide glue huh?  I've never heard of that, so I'll definitely have to check it out. 
you probably don't need hot hide glue, unless you plan on doing lots of wood work.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 24, 2017, 02:12:52 AM
i hear you.  yeh your guitar came out nice.  looks fun to play


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on September 24, 2017, 02:19:21 AM
i hear you.  yeh your guitar came out nice.  looks fun to play
it's easy to play on a couch or chair, even in a car, if your in a passenger seat.
   But I have a lot of guitars and the two that get played the most are my old D-02 and my newest, the OO-40R.  The OO is still small enough to play in a chair, or sofa.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on September 24, 2017, 06:57:25 AM
I agree with Danny and Rob that you should glue it with modern wood glue like Tite-Bond or similar.  Just push it in the crack.  Hide glue is more hassle than it's worth unless you must preserve the originality of a serious vintage instrument.    No need for cleats at this point.  Here is how I would repair a crack such as this one if you brought it to me:

-Wet a finger with water and rub it over the crack to make it a bit damp.  Wipe off the excess water.  The glue will wick into the crack better that way.  You don't want to make it too wet or it will start to swell up before you can get some glue in there.
 
-Reach inside the guitar with one hand and try to open the crack a bit by gently pushing up against it from underneath as you apply the glue.

-While holding the crack open, apply the glue then rub it into the crack with a finger on your other hand.  Swirl it around in all directions, and try to force some right into the crack if you can.

-Once the glue is applied, release the pressure from inside, and the crack should close back up to it's former state.  If some glue squeezes out (which is a good sign), wipe it off with a damp cloth.  Be careful not to pull any glue back out of the crack.

-Use some good quality (stretchy) masking tape to pull and hold the two sides of the crack together while it cures.  Start the tape several inches from the crack on one side and firmly press it down from there to just before the crack.  While holding the tape down at that spot, pull and stretch the tape across the crack and tape it down on the other side while keeping the tension on it.  The tape will try and shrink back to its original size pulling the sides of the crack together.  If any glue squeezes out near the first piece of tape, wipe it off as before, and install another piece of tape across the crack beside the first one.  Continue in this way until you have strips of tape stretched across the entire length of the crack.  The strips should be fairly close to each other.

-Let the glue dry for at least 12 hours before removing the tape.

That should stabilize the crack and it shouldn't get any worse as long as you maintain proper humidity.  As has been said, even if the crack doesn't affect the sound or playability, it will at least be stabilized.  Then you can turn your attention to making it look better depending on how much it shows and how important that is to you.  We all have different levels of tolerance when it comes to esthetics.  My tolerance is high, so if a crack is stable, then I don't care much about how visible it is.  My OM-03 has two cracks in the same area as yours.  One is almost in the exact same place (the treble side) and the other is exactly the same distance from the center-line as the first, only on the bass side.  They were repaired by the previous owner and have remained stable for a few years now.  They are definitely visible, but that doesn't bother me because the guitar sounds and plays great.

It appears you are willing and able to fix it yourself, so I say go for it.  You can't do any harm to the guitar by trying to glue the crack.

Good luck, and by the way,  :welcome: to the forum.

Kurt


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on September 24, 2017, 04:11:25 PM
 :+1: For Kurts instruction's.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on September 25, 2017, 11:19:41 AM
Awesome instructions.  I definitely appreciate you writing that all out.  I try to do things myself when possible, with good directions and taking the time though of course.  


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: AZLiberty on September 27, 2017, 02:37:53 AM
Arizona is tougher on guitars than Texas, as I unfortunately know.

Done carefully, a top crack repair can be almost invisible.  Here is a pic of one on my D-03R-12 that was repaired around 15 years ago.

(https://i.imgur.com/jnPzu4f.jpg?1)

You can see the repaired crack just to the side of the center seam on the other side of the bridge.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on October 03, 2017, 12:11:07 AM
Yeah that doesn't look bad at all, especially after 15 yrs.  Yep after my guitar cracked in Texas, we moved out to Arizona and I think it was like an uphill battle trying to rehydrate there. 

So here is my finished result.  Haha somewhat the same.  But not worse and it has been glued. 
I pressed Gorilla wood glue(already had it on hand) into the crack with my finger while applying upward pressure from the interior.  Then sort of created some extra clamping pressure on the sides by shoving it in it's case with some extra material to make it real snug.  Looks okay to me.  Took 10 minutes. 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on October 03, 2017, 12:15:13 AM
I never, ever, use gorilla glue. Titebond would be invisible when done right.

Just my view.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on October 03, 2017, 12:20:15 AM
Yeah I think at the top it looks pretty seamless(kinda blurry on my pic-cameras.) but at the bottom the crack was more coarse so thats kind of protruding, not actually the glue.  But you may be right. 


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on October 03, 2017, 12:23:11 AM
Gorilla glue expands as well, this making the crack worse. Or at least preventing the closing up tightly.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on October 03, 2017, 01:24:09 AM
gorilla wood glue is what i used...

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/gorillawoodglu.html



Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: Danny on October 03, 2017, 01:29:04 AM
 Sorry, you just said gorilla glue. So I thought it was the original. Gorilla wood glue is still not what I'd use, but it must be decent wood glue.
  But It's a different formula than Titebond.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on October 03, 2017, 02:17:54 AM
Just read the info provided on your link.  Seems like the Gorilla Wood Glue is much like the other PVA glues and such as Tite-Bond etc.  and should work as well as any of them.  If it dries to a tan color, that is even better.

I've been using Lee Valley's 2002 GF Cabinet Makers glue for several years.  It has an open time of 15 to 20 minutes and clamping time of 30 to 90 minutes.  It dries to a dark tan color.  I like it's viscosity which is a little tackier than tite bond and others as it has a higher solids content.  The parts stay together quite well before you get the clamps on.  http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=45104&cat=1,110,42965,45104

We sell it at Lee Valley Tools, where I work.  A bonus for me is I get it at a discount.  Many local cabinet makers, furniture builders, and wood craftsmen prefer it over other PVA glues.

Congrats on doing the repair yourself.


Title: Re: Help Assess my D03R TOP CRACK !! Any luthiers out there?
Post by: nataliesilva on October 07, 2017, 04:26:19 PM
hmmm... yeh when it works it works!  this gorilla wood glue is kind of light tan in color when it dries.  i used it on another wood project, worked good on that too.. 20-30 minutes clamp time.  24 hour set.