Main Forums => Non-Guitar Discussion => Topic started by: headsup on April 03, 2017, 08:31:33 PM

Title: an ethical question.
Post by: headsup on April 03, 2017, 08:31:33 PM
Recently I saw an auction for various household items, including a set of "French Ivory" old hair brushes, hand mirror etc.

The thought crossed my mind (as a couple of them were damaged) to buy them and re-purpose the ivory for fine nuts and saddles on a couple guitars.

Just an idea, open for discussion.....

Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Caleb on April 03, 2017, 08:38:34 PM
Well, it seems to me that someone already made something out of the ivory.  You would simply be repurposing it.  If not the items will probably just gather dust till someone comes along and throws them away.  Might as well get some kind of use out of it.  .02
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: unclrob on April 03, 2017, 09:30:18 PM
If you can get them cheap buy them and use the material.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: eded on April 03, 2017, 09:55:20 PM
Do you think it makes *that* much difference, or is it some fetish thing?

Personally, I'd pass.

Ed
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: B0WIE on April 03, 2017, 09:56:33 PM
I look for things like that all the time. Haven't had much luck finding ivory that is cut in a way that's suitable for guitar saddles though.   Getting nervous because I only have 4 ivory saddle spares left and, to me, they make such a wonderful difference. Kicking myself for not buying more spares when they were cheap and legal.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Mikeymac on April 04, 2017, 11:20:36 AM
Quote from: Caleb on April 03, 2017, 08:38:34 PM
Well, it seems to me that someone already made something out of the ivory.  You would simply be repurposing it.  If not the items will probably just gather dust till someone comes along and throws them away.  Might as well get some kind of use out of it.  .02


This ^^^ +1.

The animals are long dead/long gone; because of the passing of time and passage of laws, you're not contributing to any animal extinction or anything. Go for it.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: ducktrapper on April 04, 2017, 06:22:07 PM
If it can be done, it should be done.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: JOYCEfromNS on April 04, 2017, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: headsup on April 03, 2017, 08:31:33 PM
Recently I saw an auction for various household items, including a set of "French Ivory" old hair brushes, hand mirror etc.

The thought crossed my mind (as a couple of them were damaged) to buy them and re-purpose the ivory for fine nuts and saddles on a couple guitars.

Just an idea, open for discussion....

Thought French Ivory was just an old plastic like, man made material - so not sure of the ethical issue  :? Best to simply stick with tusq  :?
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: B0WIE on April 04, 2017, 08:12:42 PM
Quote from: JOYCEfromNS on April 04, 2017, 07:05:08 PM
Thought French Ivory was just an old plastic like, man made material - so not sure of the ethical issue  :? Best to simply stick with tusq  :?
Are you sure it's not ivory harvested from French elephants??   :humour:
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Strings4Him on April 05, 2017, 09:52:45 AM
Use it or lose it.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: eded on April 05, 2017, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: JOYCEfromNS on April 04, 2017, 07:05:08 PM
Thought French Ivory was just an old plastic like, man made material - so not sure of the ethical issue  :? Best to simply stick with tusq  :?

You're right...  similar to Bakelite and Celluloid.  It hasn't been made for a while,so I guess there's the ethics of repurposing old artifacts.

Ed
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Mikeymac on April 05, 2017, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: eded on April 05, 2017, 11:42:51 AM
You're right...  similar to Bakelite and Celluloid.  It hasn't been made for a while,so far guess there's the ethics of repurposing old artifacts.

Ed

Just so there's no asbestos in it... you don't want to be sanding and filing away on that stuff!!!  :arrow
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: headsup on April 05, 2017, 11:11:39 PM
well I'm sure learning a few things about "french" Ivory, maybe it's like us Canadians and it speaks french as well?

Anyways, I got so busy i forgot about the auction but a few years back, I donated some funds to ML sons boy scout fund, in return for several high quality bone nuts, saddles, bridge pins, and some other stuff.

I actually din't donate funds, I bought some popcorn for their fund raising campaign, and in return I got some very useful things (as described).

HERES the rub:
When I signed up, and paid with VISA, the company said they couldn't ship to Canada.
So the shipping address I gave to theM was the Larrivee shop in Oxnard, with instructions to dispense the popcorn equally (as much as possible) to the folks in the shop.

Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Queequeg on April 06, 2017, 01:19:16 PM
If you can recycle that old ivory, I don't see the ethical problem with it, Kevin.
Now here's something that could really have an impact to the survival of African elephants.  :thumb
China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017 (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/china-ban-ivory-trade-2017-161230183540915.html)
China will ban all domestic ivory trade and processing by the end of 2017, a move described by activists as a potential "game changer" for African elephants.

African ivory is highly sought after in China, where it is seen as a status symbol, and prices can reach as high as $1,100 a kg.

"China will gradually stop the processing and sales of ivories for commercial purposes by the end of 2017," the official Xinhua news agency said on Friday, citing a government statement.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: eded on April 06, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 06, 2017, 01:19:16 PM
If you can recycle that old ivory, I don't see the ethical problem with it, Kevin.

If you paid attention to what's been said so far, you'd know that the "French Ivory" being discussed is a man made material...  an early plastic. I didn't know that until someone mentioned it in this thread, but now I do.

Ed
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Queequeg on April 06, 2017, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: eded on April 06, 2017, 02:16:36 PM
If you paid attention to what's been said so far, you'd know that the "French Ivory" being discussed is a man made material...  an early plastic. I didn't know that until someone mentioned it in this thread, but now I do.

Ed
Thanks, Ed.
Sorry, didn't read the entire thread.
Working here, you know. I shouldn't be messing around on internet forums (is what they tell me).
Like I said, no ethical issues   :laughin:
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Walkerman on April 06, 2017, 02:46:30 PM
The other consideration, though moot now, is whether you plan on traveling across borders with the guitar.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: headsup on April 06, 2017, 08:29:22 PM
ok then here we go!
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-09-22/news/0209220243_1_ivory-roselyn-gerson-celluloid

however, given the high quality I am wondering even if it could still be used for saddles or top nuts, some of these sets can be found quite cheap at junk shops.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on April 08, 2017, 01:32:23 AM
Even though it turns out the "French Ivory" is plastic, I think Kevin's topic about the ethics of using re-purposed ivory is worth discussing.

I'm definitely in agreement with those of you who say that there is nothing unethical about re-cycling ivory that has already been made into something in the past.  The damage to the animal, in that case, has already been done.  I see no harm in making it into something useful like guitar parts.

In the past year, I have obtained two complete sets of salvaged piano keys.  The "white" keys were veneered in ivory, and the black keys are solid ebony.  I have removed the ivory veneer pieces with a heat gun and a palette knife.  They came off quite easily.  I assume they were attached with hide glue or something similar.  These thin strips of ivory have all kinds of applications for guitars.  They can be used for inlays, and position markers.  Three or four of them laminated together with water-thin super glue will provide enough material for making 2 or 3 saddle-blanks or several nut blanks.  They also make excellent shims when super-glued to the bottom of an existing bone saddle or nut that isn't tall enough.

I am vehemently against the harvesting of new ivory in any way shape or form, however.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: eded on April 08, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
Quote from: L07 Shooting Star on April 08, 2017, 01:32:23 AM
Even though it turns out the "French Ivory" is plastic, I think Kevin's topic about the ethics of using re-purposed ivory is worth discussing.

I'm definitely in agreement with those of you who say that there is nothing unethical about re-cycling ivory that has already been made into something in the past.  The damage to the animal, in that case, has already been done.  I see no harm in making it into something useful like guitar parts.

In the past year, I have obtained two complete sets of salvaged piano keys.  The "white" keys were veneered in ivory, and the black keys are solid ebony.  I have removed the ivory veneer pieces with a heat gun and a palette knife.  They came off quite easily.  I assume they were attached with hide glue or something similar.  These thin strips of ivory have all kinds of applications for guitars.  They can be used for inlays, and position markers.  Three or four of them laminated together with water-thin super glue will provide enough material for making 2 or 3 saddle-blanks or several nut blanks.  They also make excellent shims when super-glued to the bottom of an existing bone saddle or nut that isn't tall enough.

I am vehemently against the harvesting of new ivory in any way shape or form, however.

Overall, my question is...  does it make *any* difference?  Especially laminated blocks of it like you propose.  I don't think it being ivory gives it any special properties.  And, I don't think it being old gives it anything over good old bone.

Ed
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on April 12, 2017, 02:45:17 AM
Quote from: eded on April 08, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
Overall, my question is...  does it make *any* difference?  Especially laminated blocks of it like you propose.  I don't think it being ivory gives it any special properties.  And, I don't think it being old gives it anything over good old bone.

Ed
My post was an attempt to offer an opinion based on the OP's question about the ethical question of using recycled ivory.

My point, which you obviously missed, is that re-purposed ivory such as what may be obtained from old piano keys, should not be unethical to use.  I just thought some of the ways I have used it (with great results, by the way) might be interesting or useful to some.

I'm not claiming that the ivory, as a material, is superior to any other material used for guitar nuts or saddles.  In my experience, it is better than plastic and at least as good as bone.  You have assumed I'm claiming it has special properties, and that it's better because it's old.  Where did I say that?

I am not simply "proposing" (as you say) laminating those thin strips of ivory for nut and saddle blanks, I am recommending it because I have done it many times with very satisfactory results.  Don't knock it till you've tried it, which I assume you haven't.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: eded on April 12, 2017, 06:12:51 AM
Quote from: L07 Shooting Star on April 12, 2017, 02:45:17 AM

I am not simply "proposing" (as you say) laminating those thin strips of ivory for nut and saddle blanks, I am recommending it because I have done it many times with very satisfactory results.  Don't knock it till you've tried it, which I assume you haven't.

Not knocking...  questioning the value.  It seems like more work than its worth, to me.  But, if it's what you want to do, have fun! 

Ed
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: C-10-4-me on April 12, 2017, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 06, 2017, 01:19:16 PM
If you can recycle that old ivory, I don't see the ethical problem with it, Kevin.
Now here's something that could really have an impact to the survival of African elephants.  :thumb
China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017 (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/china-ban-ivory-trade-2017-161230183540915.html)
China will ban all domestic ivory trade and processing by the end of 2017, a move described by activists as a potential "game changer" for African elephants.

African ivory is highly sought after in China, where it is seen as a status symbol, and prices can reach as high as $1,100 a kg.

"China will gradually stop the processing and sales of ivories for commercial purposes by the end of 2017," the official Xinhua news agency said on Friday, citing a government statement.

Interesting. Now if only China had taken a similar approach to importing Madagascar Rosewood there would still be ample supplies of it. Unfortunately,they did not.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: B0WIE on April 15, 2017, 01:17:09 AM
Quote from: eded on April 08, 2017, 06:56:59 AM
Overall, my question is...  does it make *any* difference?  Especially laminated blocks of it like you propose.  I don't think it being ivory gives it any special properties.  And, I don't think it being old gives it anything over good old bone.

Ed
When you say "it being ivory", well that certainly does make a difference as ivory saddles sound different than bone.  But, I'd imagine the other aspects (like being stacked laminates) would negate that.  I'm sure they'd still make a difference but probably not a positive one (though I've never tried the laminates).
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: Paraclete on April 16, 2017, 12:45:57 AM
Why not?  Sounds like a great idea to me.  I've played with picks made from old piano keys.  Also, there are people who look for old tortoise shell combs and whatnot to carve into picks.
Title: Re: an ethical question.
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on April 16, 2017, 01:34:46 AM
Quote from: Paraclete on April 16, 2017, 12:45:57 AM
Why not?  Sounds like a great idea to me.  I've played with picks made from old piano keys.  Also, there are people who look for old tortoise shell combs and whatnot to carve into picks.

All I can say is that nut and saddle blanks, made by laminating layers of old ivory piano key veneers, then re-cut and shaped, resemble the same parts made of bone in terms of machinability and tone.  My assessment is from experience and not theory.