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Main Forums => Non-Guitar Discussion => Topic started by: headsup on June 18, 2016, 05:54:59 AM



Title: before Facebook?
Post by: headsup on June 18, 2016, 05:54:59 AM
finding ways to re-evaluate personal communication lately.

decided to leave FB, because i got tired of looking at pictures of cats, and food, and folks complaining etc.
( my agent still maintains a musician site, that I don't look at) but really/

sort of like cell phones everybody carries for what ever reasons, not just teen agers but adults in clubs, looking, sharing at what ever on their device.

the there's Face book, and the same situation...
 so.... remember?
 remember life BEFORE cell phones and FB?

I might be barking up the wrong trees here, but, IU've decided to leave my phone at home or in the car when I go out, and if I'm not on FB, ya think there's other ways "friends" can find me right?

How/when did we all climb aboard that device addiction and social media addiction, and why?

just asking myself and making some personal changes and tossing it out there for discussion.....



Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Riverbend on June 18, 2016, 11:02:58 AM
One thing I've noticed is that the perspectives of those of us who actually experienced life BEFORE the landslide of technology are most often the ones that question that technology's use and need. When I've tried to have this type of conversation with younger folks who've always had these modern "conveniences", they can't even imaging life without them and defend their use. My personal spin on the subject is that we've gone a bit too far and are losing real touch with each other. I'm unable at this point to define what we're replacing it with as it's constantly evolving.     


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 18, 2016, 11:22:56 AM
And ... get offa my lawn!  :mad:


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: adern on June 18, 2016, 11:37:20 AM
I opened a Facebook account because a friend who lives in another state talked me in to it (i am sure there were adult beverages involved). I never even looked at it and in several weeks time my wife informed me that I had a lot of unanswered "friend requests". "So what" says I. "Well its rude to not accept them". Well off I go to accept these very important friend requests, and I don't look at Facebook for several more weeks. When I do, I realize that every stupid photo of every stupid thing that is being done by anyone I have ever met is suddenly showing up on my page.

I promptly closed my account.

One of the big problems with the thing is that everyone can comment immediately without actually thing about what they are saying. No cooling off periods. No sobering up period. I think the whole thing tends to dumb down society as a whole.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 18, 2016, 12:16:10 PM
You realize that you can un-follow or un-friend anyone who insists on posting stuff that you don't like or agree with while finding that the poster is not looking to debate and doesn't care if what they've posted is remotely true? I've unfollowed many and told good actual friends and family that I am un-friending them as far as FB goes. It does not mean we are no longer friends in real life. I just want to get back to pics of kittehs and doggeez.  :smile:  


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: SMan on June 18, 2016, 12:44:24 PM
I have a whopping 37 friends on fb.  I don't follow any of them and rarely post.  I participate on no other social media.  I have a flip phone that I rarely have on my person (and yes my lawn has a no trespassing sign).


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Riverbend on June 18, 2016, 01:06:12 PM
Yep...got this cartoon on FB! :rolleye:


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on June 18, 2016, 02:13:48 PM
I was on FB once about 7-8 years ago,lasted about 2 weeks.I have a cell phone,not a smart phone one of those Star Trek flippy things.The duo I'm in is on FB because its an easier way to show the younger club bookers our stuff they can watch it on there smart phone's and maybe they'll hire us.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Caleb on June 18, 2016, 03:10:05 PM
A lot could be said about what FB and social media has done and is doing. But the thing I think of most is how it's destroying the art of conversation.  Not that our society was very good at the art of conversation anyway, but now it's all about "commenting," "liking," and "sharing."  But mostly it's about commenting. 

We've all had those conversations where the other person isn't really listening, but only waiting for an opening so he or she can speak.  Social media cuts out the waiting space and just gets directly on to the commenting.  I've even seen here where people apologize for "such a long post," knowing the mentality of the day is to just skim and get on with the comments.  It's almost as if everyone is talking but no one is listening. Strange.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Riverbend on June 18, 2016, 03:32:42 PM
[quote author=Caleb link=topic=50078.msg440237#msg440237 date=1466262605

We've all had those conversations where the other person isn't really listening, but only waiting for an opening so he or she can speak. [/quote]
Sure makes you appreciate the genuine conversations we have and the folks we have them with, eh? I talk to my dogs and cat a lot more these days because they really listen and talk back with their eyes and actions.  :bowdown: And my wife and kids, when I see them...they're great to talk with.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Caleb on June 18, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
I'm not sure when I last had a genuinely enjoyable conversation. Most times people just want to talk about nonsense like politics, the hot topics of the day, etc, usually while parroting what their favorite news personality just told them. All wearisome stuff for me.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: adern on June 18, 2016, 04:51:32 PM
... the thing I think of most is how it's destroying the art of conversation...

Amen. (can I say amen here?) I have seen three "youngsters" sitting on the same sofa and texting to each other rather than talking. makes one wonder where we will be in ten years.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 18, 2016, 04:55:41 PM
I have a whopping 37 friends on fb.  I don't follow any of them and rarely post.  I participate on no other social media.  I have a flip phone that I rarely have on my person (and yes my lawn has a no trespassing sign).

We are brothers from different mothers, only you have more FB "friends".   :laughin:  


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Melodeous on June 18, 2016, 11:45:14 PM
I have neither a cell phone nor FB account. I tried the cell phone thing but found myself worrying about safeguarding it, charging it, losing it, missing calls, checking in...sheesh. Without exaggeration, when I handed it to my wife and said enough is enough you'd have thought I was asking to divorce her rather than the phone. Anyway, she's used to me being just my old incommunicado self again and I'm off the leash. Regarding FB, really? When I first got wind of the concept I thought of teenage girls. You could have knocked me over with a feather the first time I heard a bunch of grown men talking about their own use of it.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: headsup on June 19, 2016, 05:53:43 AM
I posted this rant, from a place of personal frustration, that others have chimed in on.

Around and about conversation,.
Conversation NOT about what they saw on FB, or TV, or the news, but honest conversation about, lets say, personal health, family, kids, or just something dumb, like "what bugs me" or "what I'd like to see more of" etc.
 You get the idea....

Because i travel a bit, and play different venues in different towns, and have very good ears, it's easy to "eves drop on conversations (sometimes I don't have an option (loud people).

But for the most part, it's about something they saw on FB, or some media item they need to "share".

Don't get me wrong, That's what, ( i guess) people talk about now, and that's ok, but I don't really hear much about genuine feelings, or "personal" opinions on important matters anymore.
Again, I could be wrong, but it has been mentioned a few times since my OP, the "art" of conversation, just seems to be non existent lately.
 i go to friends places, or rehearsals, and it's always about "did you see the.....on... etc.
then they try to explain something which, of course is lost in the translation, and then they say something like, "I'll send it to you" or something stupid.

Sorry to prattle on here, just my over sixty, working musician/gardenner/cook, home renovator guy take on things...../


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: L07 Shooting Star on June 19, 2016, 05:58:01 AM
I could never wrap my head around facebook.  We have an account, mostly to keep up with what's going on with the family.  My 2 daughters and my wife use it a lot for chit chat, updates on grandkids activities, etc.  It's handy for that.  We don't accept friend requests, "like" posts, or comment, unless it's within our little family group.  I still haven't figured out how it really works.  I can't even understand who's facebook page I am looking at half the time.

All we ever had for a cell phone until June 2 was one flip phone between my wife and I.  We carried it when travelling in case of emergency.  All that changed when my wife slipped on a hill while walking our dog and broke her ankle in three places.  This happened on May 14.  On that day, I happened to have our phone with me at work.  She laid there helpless yelling for help for 20 minutes until another dog-walker lady came along and called 911 on her smartphone.  That same lady called me at work from her phone.  After that incident, it was decided neither of us would be anywhere without carrying a modern phone.

I think a distinction between "social media" and modern "devices" needs to be made.  Our new phones are (to us) such a leap in ability to communicate and share instantly from anywhere to anybody.  This is probably not news to most of you.  :laughin: 


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Barefoot Rob on June 19, 2016, 06:08:35 AM
Just got back from a gig and most of the people were on there smart phone's texting and whatever.The one's not on there phone's enjoyed us enough to put a total of $54 bucks in our tip jar..I do have a flip phone for long distant call's as I live in a college town and all my calls seem to different area code's.


Title: Facebook: An acknowledgement of the role that it plays in my musical life.
Post by: ST on June 19, 2016, 07:08:33 AM


All of the venues where I play have an active presence on Facebook. They all advertise the entertainment and whatever else they are serving up on Facebook.

Almost all the people with whom I collaborate musically have an active presence on Facebook.

When I'm playing someplace I create an event for it on Facebook and then people in my community can rsvp and others can see who is going. That's like gravity. The greater the mass, the greater the attraction. (e.g. if Charlie and Nancy are going, I'll go too).

When I'm wondering what my musical buddies are doing I can find out by looking on Facebook.

I post about shows, respond to comments from people who have been to my shows,  and indicate that I'm going to others' shows when I plan to be there, to be supportive.


It seems that folks in the area where I play have adopted Facebook as the common medium for things musical. Though I have no interest in Facebook for recreation or diversion, it is useful for business.





Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 19, 2016, 02:53:10 PM
I have  flip phone which I almost never use. When my wife got her new smart phone, Verizon offered her a second phone for "nothing". She asked me if I wanted it and I was going to take it but then found out that it would cost me an extra $75 a month. This is my biggest complaint with these phones. When I was in Canada and my wife called me, my flip phone would also be charged minutes. Why should you have to pay more to use an extra phone? Why should both phones be charged for the same calls? Can we say "rip off"?   


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Caleb on June 19, 2016, 04:30:19 PM
I posted this rant, from a place of personal frustration, that others have chimed in on.

Around and about conversation,.
Conversation NOT about what they saw on FB, or TV, or the news, but honest conversation about, lets say, personal health, family, kids, or just something dumb, like "what bugs me" or "what I'd like to see more of" etc.
 You get the idea....

Because i travel a bit, and play different venues in different towns, and have very good ears, it's easy to "eves drop on conversations (sometimes I don't have an option (loud people).

But for the most part, it's about something they saw on FB, or some media item they need to "share".

Don't get me wrong, That's what, ( i guess) people talk about now, and that's ok, but I don't really hear much about genuine feelings, or "personal" opinions on important matters anymore.
Again, I could be wrong, but it has been mentioned a few times since my OP, the "art" of conversation, just seems to be non existent lately.
 i go to friends places, or rehearsals, and it's always about "did you see the.....on... etc.
then they try to explain something which, of course is lost in the translation, and then they say something like, "I'll send it to you" or something stupid.

Sorry to prattle on here, just my over sixty, working musician/gardenner/cook, home renovator guy take on things...../
Part of this is just what people talk about today, and it also reflects well the modern attention span.  Things like FB and 24-hour news help us to constantly feed ourselves information, but at the same time it helps us not pay close attention.  It is truly strange.  

Something I've also noticed about FB and other social media is that when it's mentioned, a lot of people almost apologize for being involved in it.  I hear things all the time that sound like: "Well, I have an account, but rarely check it or post..." etc.  And it's not just adults I hear this from, but I've heard teenagers say similar things.  It's almost as if everyone wants to have an account, but all the while they can't feel sure about their place in it all.  Another strange thing.  

My name is on my wife's account.  Occasionally someone from my school days will request to be friends.  She'll hand me the computer and I'll reject the request.  Being "friends" with someone like that (who probably really only wants to see if I'm fat and bald now anyway) isn't something I'm interested in.  

Regarding smartphones:
I love my smartphone, but I see it as more of a tool than a toy.  Not only can I get my email on the go, check the Larrivee forum, etc, but I can take and edit wonderful photos, listen to music, audiobooks, podcasts, etc.  It has made my average day much better and been a serious help to my efforts in self-education.   If all I was doing was watching cat videos on FB with it, yeah, it'd be pretty much a contributing factor to brain rot.  But there really is a ton that can be done with these things for the good of an individual.  

They are also just another monthly bill, as duck pointed out.  In this way all our gadgets and conveniences have become the paid servants of yesteryear.  


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: George on June 19, 2016, 04:44:06 PM
The best thing on my smartphone is the guitar tuner...  What did we ever do without them?  We talked to each other...  They can be a hazard to one's safety when totally distracted by it...


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Riverbend on June 19, 2016, 07:01:53 PM
I've gone the smartphone route for about 6 years now and I consider it a valuable tool. I've never played a game on it, I have talked and emailed extensively, carried out necessary business functions with it, texted occasionally and taken many high quality photos without having to carry around a real camera. My first few decent cameras didn't have the resolution that my phone has and I often joke that my camera nowadays came with a phone attached.  :roll
   


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: adern on June 19, 2016, 07:20:11 PM
... I often joke that my camera nowadays came with a phone attached...   

And a tuner, and metronome, a database of chords and scales, and several audio analysis tools, sine wave and noise generators, light meter, SWR meter for radio antennas, but no, no games. 


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: George on June 19, 2016, 07:51:36 PM
And a tuner, and metronome, a database of chords and scales, and several audio analysis tools, sine wave and noise generators, light meter, SWR meter for radio antennas, but no, no games. 

 :thumb   :+1:


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: skyline on June 19, 2016, 09:54:12 PM
I've gone the smartphone route for about 6 years now and I consider it a valuable tool.  [ ] and I often joke that my camera nowadays came with a phone attached.  :roll 

And a tuner, and metronome, a database of chords and scales, and several audio analysis tools, sine wave and noise generators, light meter, SWR meter for radio antennas,

they're also really handy audio recording devices, good for playing back tunes you're trying to learn (sometimes in slow-speed)

but smart-phones certainly don't need facebook

texting or messaging can be a real time saver when you're picking up people from airports or train stations.


Title: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: ST on June 19, 2016, 11:39:02 PM
For the next little bit I'm talking about a regular gig in a bar or a restaurant, not a concert.

I don't mind if people use their phones at a gig. I certainly don't judge.

If people tweet or use Instagram or put something on Facebook to tell their friends that they are having a good time at a gig, that's all good.

I watch people at gigs. They eat and drink and talk and flirt and work and watch people and use their phones, and they may be nodding or singing along at the same time.

I can't tell people how to have a good time and I can't expect them to behave in ways that I understand while they are doing it. 

Today is today and that's all we've got. Grieving for the good old days just squanders today.


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: skyline on June 20, 2016, 03:54:51 AM
Today is today and that's all we've got.

Wow - that's optimistic.

Sometimes if feels to me that half of what I ever did at gigs is remind people that today isn't the end  :cheers

Grieving for the good old days just squanders today.
Sure, we've been down this street before a few times in the last century or so. It's hard not to feel like there's some inverse proportion of benefit at play here though - mass print -  radio - telephony -  television - internet - "social" media. Arguments were made for and against in each case; in each case they were very similar arguments. Ultimately there is a clear relationship between the ease of central control of these technologies and their actual benefits.

Imagine four graph lines*: one is the benefits to the individual from a technology - second line is the reach of that technology over the planet - third how much of an individual's life is taken up by that technology - and fourth line how centralized is the control of that technology. It won't be a happy graph.

Paine's "Common Sense" sold over six-hundred-thousand copies to an audience of two-million - there may be the odd cat video with that level of penetration, but I doubt it, and even if there were, it certainly isn't as important.



*shades of Donnie Darko here?


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 20, 2016, 12:35:19 PM
I don't care. Get offa my lawn, pull your pants up, get a job and get off the phone.


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: ST on June 20, 2016, 03:11:17 PM

Wow - that's optimistic.
Setting aside how one might view the possibility of being able to change the future, a focus on the present is what allows me to actually live the moment instead of being preoccupied with things long gone or that may never happen.

In person, I'm extremely optimistic. The absence of hope is despair.
Quote
Sometimes if feels to me that half of what I ever did at gigs is remind people that today isn't the end  :cheers

And today is the end

... of today.
Quote
Sure, we've been down this street before a few times in the last century or so. It's hard not to feel like there's some inverse proportion of benefit at play here though - mass print -  radio - telephony -  television - internet - "social" media. Arguments were made for and against in each case; in each case they were very similar arguments. Ultimately there is a clear relationship between the ease of central control of these technologies and their actual benefits.
Control in the days before Facebook (well actually there were some platforms that predated it), control included:
  • Who could publish
  • When they could publish
  • What they could publish
  • Who could see what was published
  • How long it would be available

With social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Ello, and many more (for those who have access to it)
  • Who can publish
    Anybody who subscribes**
  • When they can publish
    Anytime
  • What they can publish
    Almost anything subject to the rules of each platform
  • Who could see what was published
    Anybody who subscribes**
  • How long it would be available

    Seemingly... forever

**As of the first quarter of 2016, Facebook had 1.65 billion monthly active users. In the third quarter of 2012, the number of active Facebook users had surpassed 1 billion. Active users are those which have logged in to Facebook during the last 30 days.
Source: http://www.statista.com/statistics/264810/number-of-monthly-active-facebook-users-worldwide/



Quote
Imagine four graph lines*: one is the benefits to the individual from a technology - second line is the reach of that technology over the planet - third how much of an individual's life is taken up by that technology - and fourth line how centralized is the control of that technology.

Within the confines of the list above centralized control has been given over to the people who socialize social media. It's instant, effortless self-publishing.

Quote
It won't be a happy graph.

Paine's "Common Sense" sold over six-hundred-thousand copies to an audience of two-million - there may be the odd cat video with that level of penetration, but I doubt it, and even if there were, it certainly isn't as important.


*shades of Donnie Darko here?

I look at the technology platforms that allow instant self-gratification through seemingly mindless stream of consciousness sharing as being in their infancy. And here's the optimism. We'll figure it out.

I just came back from a couple of weeks in countries where English was the second or third or fourth language. I had a lot of conversations that on the surface would have appeared trivial or pointless. It was a different medium speaking through a language (technology) barrier. But what I got from the small talk was a genuine desire to connect, to express interest and concern, to share and understand something.  And I got and gave a lot more than a transcript would reveal.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ST on June 20, 2016, 03:22:38 PM

I don't care. Get offa my lawn, pull your pants up, get a job and get off the phone.

84 characters - pithy, poetic, perfect for twitter or Facebook.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: mike in lytle on June 20, 2016, 04:38:38 PM
I don't care. Get offa my lawn, pull your pants up, get a job and get off the phone.
:donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee
Are your neighbors Hmong, and do you own a really cool old car?
Mike
L-05


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 20, 2016, 08:05:16 PM
:donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee
Are your neighbors Hmong, and do you own a really cool old car?
Mike
L-05

The Hmong are mostly north of here in Wausau but I have no problem as long as everyone stays offa the lawn, pulls up their pants, gets a job and gets the **** off the ******* phone. I own a pretty unremarkable 2011 Toyota Camry XLE. Great car though. Speaking of cool old cars, I just got my volunteer package in the mail for the Iola Old Car Show. One of the largest old car shows in the US. Very cool!     


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: SMan on June 20, 2016, 10:59:16 PM
I want everyone off my lawn and have a cool 1969 El Camino.  FWIW I still have an HP 12C calculator kicking around somewhere.  (There was a time when I was on the cutting edge of technology.  :wink: )


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Walkerman on June 21, 2016, 12:33:33 AM
Oxnard has a "historic district" comprised of houses built many, many decades ago.  They all have front porches, where folks sat after dinner and talked.  That was before TV.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: headsup on June 21, 2016, 01:30:55 AM
now we're talking!!! :cheers


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: skyline on June 22, 2016, 03:00:18 AM
Setting aside how one might view the possibility of being able to change the future, a focus on the present is what allows me to actually live the moment instead of being preoccupied with things long gone or that may never happen.

In person, I'm extremely optimistic. The absence of hope is despair. And today is the end

... of today.Control in the days before Facebook (well actually there were some platforms that predated it), control included:
  • Who could publish
  • When they could publish
  • What they could publish
  • Who could see what was published
  • How long it would be available

With social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, Ello, and many more (for those who have access to it)
  • Who can publish
    Anybody who subscribes**
  • When they can publish
    Anytime
  • What they can publish
    Almost anything subject to the rules of each platform
  • Who could see what was published
    Anybody who subscribes**
  • How long it would be available

    Seemingly... forever

**As of the first quarter of 2016, Facebook had 1.65 billion monthly active users. In the third quarter of 2012, the number of active Facebook users had surpassed 1 billion. Active users are those which have logged in to Facebook during the last 30 days.
Source: http://www.statista.com/statistics/264810/number-of-monthly-active-facebook-users-worldwide/


Within the confines of the list above centralized control has been given over to the people who socialize social media. It's instant, effortless self-publishing.

I look at the technology platforms that allow instant self-gratification through seemingly mindless stream of consciousness sharing as being in their infancy. And here's the optimism. We'll figure it out.

Maybe, but, no.

Interactions through FaceBook are completely limited by the FaceBooks interface. Their search algorhythms push non-native FaceBook content out of sight. The user has no control beyond choosing to post something (which may be automatically deleted) or to "like" someone else's posting. Imagine you're trapped in some hideous Lloyd/Fox universe about to photocopy a 'zine, or write a letter to the editor, but the default action is to "Like" . . .

Facebook represents the first time in history that people have voluntarily relinquished the ability to expand a new communication platform. Up until now, restrictions on communication were always imposed via legislation after heavy duty lobbying. With FaceBook people have simply accepted those limitations upfront.

I think you would really enjoy this:
https://www.amazon.ca/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empires/dp/0307390993 (https://www.amazon.ca/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empires/dp/0307390993)*

Virtually everything in that book has a bearing on how to consider FaceBook (or whichever walled garden rises next to challenge it). It's also a fascinating insight into the resilience of American ingenuity at the grass-roots level, a resilience that has weakened with each new technological innovation.

At best, FaceBook is a limited "user gallery" with heavy restrictions on what can be curated and how it is accessed.

Ironically, the 140-character-limited Twitter is a much more relevant social media network than FaceBook. Most importantly, it is easily incorporated into any other internet platform - a concept that is total anathema to FaceBook. Combine Twitter with Imgur or Instagram and FaceBook becomes . . .

If all goes well, Web 2.0 will eventually be recognized as a "first try". The biggest difference between "social media" and every preceding communication technology is the internetz. FaceBook's fundamental design premise is to limit the power of the internetz so that users think FaceBook is the internetz


* digital version of "The Master Switch" (https://itunes.apple.com/ca/book/the-master-switch/id420466858?mt=11)


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: skyline on June 22, 2016, 03:53:14 AM
Maybe, but, no.

Hey - that was my Gibson ES posting. WooHoo!


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on June 22, 2016, 11:46:14 AM
Oxnard has a "historic district" comprised of houses built many, many decades ago.  They all have front porches, where folks sat after dinner and talked.  That was before TV.

We have one of the oldest houses in Iola. A Victorian built circa 1885. Beautiful old girl but in need of a lot of TLC. 


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: ST on June 22, 2016, 05:15:31 PM
Hi Skyline,

Sorry to take so long to respond to this (four graph lines...)


Wow - that's optimistic.

Sometimes if feels to me that half of what I ever did at gigs is remind people that today isn't the end  :cheers
Sure, we've been down this street before a few times in the last century or so. It's hard not to feel like there's some inverse proportion of benefit at play here though - mass print -  radio - telephony -  television - internet - "social" media. Arguments were made for and against in each case; in each case they were very similar arguments. Ultimately there is a clear relationship between the ease of central control of these technologies and their actual benefits.

Imagine four graph lines*: one is the benefits to the individual from a technology - second line is the reach of that technology over the planet - third how much of an individual's life is taken up by that technology - and fourth line how centralized is the control of that technology. It won't be a happy graph.

Paine's "Common Sense" sold over six-hundred-thousand copies to an audience of two-million - there may be the odd cat video with that level of penetration, but I doubt it, and even if there were, it certainly isn't as important.



*shades of Donnie Darko here?

I can imagine the first three lines could be superimposed and have them appear identical depending on how you scale them. The correlation of the first two "one is the benefits to the individual from a technology - second line is the reach of that technology over the planet" are not troubling to me. I am patron of the arts (music) and sponsor of my musical career.  And that is enabled almost entirely because of these two points.

"third how much of an individual's life is taken up by that technology"
I would change the wording to something like this.
"third how much of an individual's life is taken up by (involved with, supported by, enabled by, enhanced by, engaged with, ...) that technology"

I remind myself daily that if the lights went out (no electrical power) most of what I do would be impossible and the guitars I play most; firewood.  I would have no access to my most significant friends and relatives who are far-flung around the world.


The fourth line seems based on the premise set forth by Tim Wu (The Master Switch) (https://itunes.apple.com/ca/book/the-master-switch/id420466858?mt=11). While interesting - I'm not ready to accept (or engage) it.

Swinging back to the premise of the thread, I don't accept the premise that there is anything inherently evil about the technological advances of the last few decades. It's not the end of civilization, civil conversation, true human interaction, relevant and meaningful human contact.

You can opt in or out. You can use these new technologies well, or not. It's easy to dismiss these things out of hand and that's a choice. I'm not ready to slink off into the darkness.


 


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: ST on June 22, 2016, 05:22:58 PM
Maybe, but, no.

Interactions through FaceBook are completely limited by the FaceBooks interface. Their search algorhythms push non-native FaceBook content out of sight. The user has no control beyond choosing to post something (which may be automatically deleted) or to "like" someone else's posting. Imagine you're trapped in some hideous Lloyd/Fox universe about to photocopy a 'zine, or write a letter to the editor, but the default action is to "Like" . . .

Facebook represents the first time in history that people have voluntarily relinquished the ability to expand a new communication platform. Up until now, restrictions on communication were always imposed via legislation after heavy duty lobbying. With FaceBook people have simply accepted those limitations upfront.

I think you would really enjoy this:
https://www.amazon.ca/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empires/dp/0307390993 (https://www.amazon.ca/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empires/dp/0307390993)*

Virtually everything in that book has a bearing on how to consider FaceBook (or whichever walled garden rises next to challenge it). It's also a fascinating insight into the resilience of American ingenuity at the grass-roots level, a resilience that has weakened with each new technological innovation.

At best, FaceBook is a limited "user gallery" with heavy restrictions on what can be curated and how it is accessed.

Ironically, the 140-character-limited Twitter is a much more relevant social media network than FaceBook. Most importantly, it is easily incorporated into any other internet platform - a concept that is total anathema to FaceBook. Combine Twitter with Imgur or Instagram and FaceBook becomes . . .

If all goes well, Web 2.0 will eventually be recognized as a "first try". The biggest difference between "social media" and every preceding communication technology is the internetz. FaceBook's fundamental design premise is to limit the power of the internetz so that users think FaceBook is the internetz


* digital version of "The Master Switch" (https://itunes.apple.com/ca/book/the-master-switch/id420466858?mt=11)

These are very bleak characterizations of the Internet and Facebook. Please understand, I'm not a fan. Nor would I advocate for, or exhort others to join Facebook. I will meet and interact with people where they are. If that's on Facebook, then to the extent that this suits my needs, I'll join them there.   This is the same decision I make about going to physical venues.

ST



Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: ST on June 22, 2016, 05:36:51 PM
Hi Skyline

Hey - that was my Gibson ES posting. WooHoo!

Yeah, I got it.

 :donut :donut :donut :donut :donut :donut :donut :donut


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ST on June 22, 2016, 10:52:50 PM
Source: Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MusicForDeepMeditation/photos/a.10150223501734425.322015.84315359424/10153719140004425/?type=3&theater)


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Caleb on June 23, 2016, 02:36:16 AM
Great pic! 


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Gordo in OZ on July 22, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
FB let me re-unite with all my friends from high school in the late 1960's. We are now scattered around the world but we all message, chat and video chat - its great. There have even been Australia / Canada jam sessions.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: prof_stack on July 30, 2016, 03:36:33 AM
I use FB to reconnect with friends from the 70's and early 80's, plus family members.  Sharing photos of family gatherings is important to many of the family members.  Taking pictures of food we're eating is trite nonsense, but I do it anyway!   :laughin:


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Danny on July 31, 2016, 05:17:24 PM
Setting aside how one might view the possibility of being able to change the future, a focus on the present is what allows me to actually live the moment instead of being preoccupied with things long gone or that may never happen.

In person, I'm extremely optimistic. The absence of hope is despair.

I just came back from a couple of weeks in countries where English was the second or third or fourth language. I had a lot of conversations that on the surface would have appeared trivial or pointless. It was a different medium speaking through a language (technology) barrier. But what I got from the small talk was a genuine desire to connect, to express interest and concern, to share and understand something.  And I got and gave a lot more than a transcript would reveal.
 
      First of all you state things very clearly, with reason and experience apparently aiding your view. After I came back from Russia my view of our living and material expectations changed drastically. I made a decision to visit a third word country every year after that to keep my view  of people, things, and life in North America in perspective. Interaction with different cultures and people who struggle to have food, clean water, heat, proper clothing etc. makes FaceBook a very trivial issue. As well as many other things.
      I'm not trying to come down on anyone, I just know that I lost the clarity gained from traveling and interacting with people from other countries. It's been over three years since I went to New Zealand and Figi. We spent almost all of three weeks with the locals, which is much different from the resorts in Figi.

    Anyway it's time for me to travel again. As far as F.B. it's most valuable asset for me is our secret Family group, which links a very large family with news we all would have to wait months or even years to hear. Plus my own children and friends keep in touch there. One of my twin daughters made the announcement of her engagement on FB yesterday, with pictures. It let a few hundred people who know and care for her about the good news. Myself included, for that I appreciate FB.

                       Too long, but I haven't posted much in awhile :blush:


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: broKen on August 01, 2016, 02:35:52 AM

I just came back from a couple of weeks in countries where English was the second or third or fourth language. I had a lot of conversations that on the surface would have appeared trivial or pointless. It was a different medium speaking through a language (technology) barrier. But what I got from the small talk was a genuine desire to connect, to express interest and concern, to share and understand something.  And I got and gave a lot more than a transcript would reveal.

Hi ST, I missed this statement,  thanks to Danny for the opportunity to read it.
I would agree and add that we were made for relationships and speech (words) is what that's all about. I've said I would rather go blind than lose the ability to communicate. It sets us apart


Title: Re: In a world where people are connected to environments beyond what we can see
Post by: George on August 01, 2016, 02:10:45 PM
Hi ST, I missed this statement,  thanks to Danny for the opportunity to read it.
I would agree and add that we were made for relationships and speech (words) is what that's all about. I've said I would rather go blind than lose the ability to communicate. It sets us apart

Reminds me a lot of my trips to SouthEast Asia during the Vietnam conflict.  Communication was very difficult, but I was absolutely fascinated with learning about the culture in the countries I visited during my travels.  People all over the world are generally more welcoming than believed to be these days.  I would not trade those experiences for anything.  Not sure it would be safe to visit some of those places again though...


Title: How I interact with people when using Facebook
Post by: ST on August 02, 2016, 05:38:20 PM
 
      First of all you state things very clearly, with reason and experience apparently aiding your view. After I came back from Russia my view of our living and material expectations changed drastically. I made a decision to visit a third word country every year after that to keep my view  of people, things, and life in North America in perspective. Interaction with different cultures and people who struggle to have food, clean water, heat, proper clothing etc. makes FaceBook a very trivial issue. As well as many other things.
      I'm not trying to come down on anyone, I just know that I lost the clarity gained from traveling and interacting with people from other countries. It's been over three years since I went to New Zealand and Figi. We spent almost all of three weeks with the locals, which is much different from the resorts in Figi.

    Anyway it's time for me to travel again. As far as F.B. it's most valuable asset for me is our secret Family group, which links a very large family with news we all would have to wait months or even years to hear. Plus my own children and friends keep in touch there. One of my twin daughters made the announcement of her engagement on FB yesterday, with pictures. It let a few hundred people who know and care for her about the good news. Myself included, for that I appreciate FB.

                       Too long, but I haven't posted much in awhile :blush:

Hi Danny,

It's really nice to reconnect. It was just over 7 years ago that we met.  Are we older or wiser or just more grizzled and grey?

Being in transit for 18 hours can be grounding.

Let me ramble for just a bit.

It was a long weekend up here in Canada so there was lots of festivals and music. I was out playing every night, and that meant a lot more face-time with people.

Yesterday I met an acquaintance in a bar where I was playing. The background music was too loud during the break so we hollered at each other, snippets of conversation about our recent travels. I met his new travel companion and I admired how a couple so young in their relationship, spoke so easily, fluidly, about their shared experience.

That same night a young fellow came wandering in with his guitar. I had seen and heard him the night before.  This fellow - just 16 years old had played in the opening act for one of the best-known Blues bands in these here parts.  We chatted very briefly and I got him up on the stage to join us for a set. Wicked guitar player he was; great hands, great chops, and he and I traded looks, nods, smiles and musical phrases throughout the set. We had a great time.  We shook hands and he wandered off into the night.

I'm usually not very talkative when I'm out playing unless I'm the frontman for the band. Then it's part of the schtick to socialize for the band.  This weekend - all three gigs, I was in a support role. But the venues were packed; standing room only, so I table hopped saying hello to folks who had come out.  Snippets of conversation, a slap on the back, a fist bump, a high five, a nod, a wink, a twinkle in the eye; sometimes these were all that could be shared in the cacophony of sound.

Swinging back to the topic: Before Facebook.

Before Facebook, I wouldn't have been able to check in with that acquaintance (traveller plus one), to see more about their trip the next day. And it would have taken much more effort to tell them that I'm happy for them, that they've found each other.  It's a moot point, whether or not I would have followed up with them, or if it would have meant more if it had taken more effort. It was easy, and it was genuine.

Before Facebook, I would have worked the phones or email to let people know where I'd be for those gigs this weekend. This would have taken hours. Doing this with Facebook made it easy. I was done in minutes. The counterpoint is that it has taken time to create a good list of contacts (ugh "friends) on Facebook.

Before Facebook, it would have been a lot more effort to follow up on those quick interactions with people as I worked the room. ("Snippets of conversation, a slap on the back, a fist bump, a high five, a nod, a wink, a twinkle in the eye").  I can do that quickly on Facebook, as many of those had already acknowledged those moments and I could click to respond.

Before Facebook, I would have had to work harder in the moment to collect contact information for that young gunslinger. All I had to do was a couple of clicks the next day to let him know how to reach me. It turns out that his Mother monitors all his Facebook traffic.  She's managing his career pretty tightly from what I can see on his Facebook page. It's a different world and a different conversation.

For all of that, I will probably not spend any time on Facebook until the next flurry of activity around a gig.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: George on August 02, 2016, 07:17:17 PM
Very Well Put ST!  Great analogies there.   :thumb


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: SteveGangi on December 13, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Myself, a person who is in his early 30s who is also in the IT industry, I often ramble on about what social media and smart phones have done to society. Now, I have a smart phone and to be honest, if it weren't for the fact that my job has me driving all over the tri-state area, I would get rid of this thing. I only really use it for maps (direction and where I can find food on the road.

But to speak on the subject of the thread:

Last week there was a town festival near me. They closed the streets down, the shops were all open, they had Santa on a sleigh riding up and down the streets for photos. The whole 9 yards for a little Christmas village. As I walked, I just looked around. People just stood there on the side walks in groups all looking down, adults and teenagers alike. I saw people walking with their friends and all were looking down on their phones, not even talking to each other (BTW, this is my BIGGEST gripe. If you are moving, you better be looking where you are going. I have often times cnotemplated smacking the devices out of their hands). Either way, Why did these folks come out in the first place if they weren't active participants in enjoying the festival that was planned.

In my house, every morning, my GF wakes up and the first thing she does it take her cell phone into the bathroom with her. It is in her hands at the breakfast table and during dinner. When we go out for a quick smoke, we sit in silence because she is just scrolling away. Every sunday we watch the walking dead. Now, I am not a TV person. I just watch to be part of the conversation at work. But here I am watching this, and I look to my left and right and everyone is just looking at their phones. No one speaks.

I go to hang out with a buddy of mine. I bring my guitar over to jam He just sits on his phone the whole time.

I am sure there is no shortage of stories like these. But here is my theory as to why we like FB and social media ad so on:

We all like to surround ourselves with like minded things and the things we like. Social media allows us make little bubbles that we can fill with only the things we like and deny the things we don't. We can not follow so and so or we can block this group. I never liked this guy in high school so I don't want to know what he is about now. We essentially attempt to make a perfect world for ourselves full of the things we like.

But then something happened. When we aren't on these platforms, we realize we can't control who speaks to us or what they will speak to us about. The TV can say anything and we can only change the channel in hopes of finding something that interests us. Because we have this "perfect world" we created, the real world seems unbearable to some, packed with things they can't block or mute or change. And so back into the phone we go or behind the computer to that website we like so much.

I used to laugh at pictures I saw on the web where people said things like "Anyone going anywhere interesting tonight to look at their phones?". Now, I have to shake my head. It is sad. It is sad that I see my brother can only feed his daughter when an iPad or something is in front of her to distract her. No video playing, the kid won't eat.

And let's not get me started on the friggin selfie.


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: ducktrapper on December 14, 2016, 01:09:03 AM
It's better to be alone than alone together.  :cheers


Title: Re: before Facebook?
Post by: Mikeymac on December 14, 2016, 05:00:25 PM

Myself, a person who is in his early 30s who is also in the IT industry, I often ramble on about what social media and smart phones have done to society. Now, I have a smart phone and to be honest, if it weren't for the fact that my job has me driving all over the tri-state area, I would get rid of this thing. I only really use it for maps (direction and where I can find food on the road.

But to speak on the subject of the thread...


And let's not get me started on the friggin selfie.


Steve - excellent, perceptive post.

It also seems that everyone is afraid to be alone or miss something - always checking "what's happening." It is the fear of being irrelevant or forgotten, and therefore of no value. IOW, many people's self-images are a wreck because / if they can't disconnect from what they perceive to be the important activity going on all around them.

I also fear we have convinced ourselves we're only relevant if we know a great deal about what's happening in the world's "news" each day ("news" simply being whatever the media have manufactured and decided to tell us). We don't have any historical perspective - that in previous generations, you didn't know much about anything that happened beyond your own community - or if you did hear about it, it was days, weeks and months later when the "news" finally got to you. And yet no one felt irrelevant because of this - you were living your own life in your own family/neighborhood/community/etc.

That's enough for now...

 :donut :coffee