I'm sure the mod's can place this in the appropriate place," technical"?
I say caution, because there's more attitude here than fact, but the lines do blur, and if nothing else, it certainly will open up discussion.
See for yourself.
http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm
Not so controversial. Except to answer the question "why do we need more types of tone wood?" , one only needs to answer "because we are running out of the usual suspects."
Could you paraphrase? I don't have time to read through that without knowing what it's about.
The more the merrier. What the heck. Anyway, back and sides have got much less to do with tone than tops and ... fingers.
Quote from: B0WIE on November 23, 2014, 01:14:00 PM
Could you paraphrase? I don't have time to read through that without knowing what it's about.
Will try and save you 5 minutes .
Detailed description of various woods. Doesn't believe that unquartered wood is a handicap. Doesn't think the species of wood contributes to the tone of a guitar. Don't be concerned with with tap tones or tap tuning. Believes that good work and experience is everything. None of this will sway a mind that is already drenched in traditional guitar mythology.
I wont read that unless they mention this as the true secret to good guitar tone :humour:
There is some interesting info there.... all opinion, about as much as any woods disertation.
Ed
Half way through I realized that I had read this once before. Anyone with that amount of experience is worth listening to so I read all of it. Ill forget it all by next week. Twas interesting anyway. Thanks Kevin
Same experience for me, Ken. Someone on the forum posted a link to it a year or 2 ago. I also found it very interesting. I don't have the experience to agree or disagree with what he has to say.
Well I guess I felt it controversial because of the notion that no-one can tell the difference between guitars made from different tone-woods.
I found the author's rhetoric and vernacular a bit off putting with regards to his personal experience with wood, which maybe just comes from his own use of the different kinds of woods, rather that the over all differences those same tone woods might have of the sound or feel of a guitar.
Quote from: headsup on November 23, 2014, 10:13:07 PM
Well I guess I felt it controversial because of the notion that no-one can tell the difference between guitars made from different tone-woods.
I found the author's rhetoric and vernacular a bit off putting with regards to his personal experience with wood, which maybe just comes from his own use of the different kinds of woods, rather that the over all differences those same tone woods might have of the sound or feel of a guitar.
Kevin, et al.
I think I actually do detect differences among body woods, even with my limited exposure to anything other than rosewood, mahogany, or "laminate". I became a bit more of a believer when I got my recent OM-03. Never had a solid mahogany before. There is definitely a different vibe to it compared to my rosewood L-07. But then again, it's a different body style, so how much does that contribute?
The only "non-traditional wood" guitar of better quality I ever played happens to be an OM-style that a co-worker made herself at one of the guitar building courses offered. I think it was in BC or maybe in the USA, I can't remember for sure. She built this incredible guitar with Olivewood back and sides and sitka top. Shortly after it was completed, she brought it to work and I played it for 10 minutes or so. It is one of the most stunning guitars I've ever seen in person, It sounded absolutely terrific. But if you were to ask me if it's tone was due to the olive wood or if I could quantify how it was different from say rosewood, or mahogany, I wouldn't be able to give you an answer.
Unless a blind test is done, claims of the ability to tell swamp ash from silver oak with eyes closed will have to be met with some skepticism. I believe I can tell one of my guitars from another but is it because of the back and side woods or other more or less apparent factors? I think I'd know the glassy sound of my '75 Brazilian L from the woody tones of my mahogany OOO-50, for instance. The debate goes on.
I have very strong feelings on this matter which is why I posted it.
I don't think I have been in the music business and made a living at it for 50 years because my ears are bad.
I am told I can still tell when a guitar is a few cents sharp or flat with out a tuner.
I have different tone wood guitars for very different reasons for my ears and what I want from a guitar at any given time.
Not unlike the electric choices, around pick up configurations, different acoustic tone woods give me different options.
My most recent Maple L Larrivee, was the first guitar I actually liked in that wood, and I've auditioned many, and tried to own a couple.
MY "dislike" was because of the "sound" of the wood.
Similarly, I have had some incredible Koa guitars, including a Larrivee OM-10, in that wood, and an OsKar Graf.
Koa does not call to me, I find it a tad too sweet, and lacking real depth that need for my style of playing.
It's shimmery, and clear, with out the punch of the Maple. (just MY opinion)
My C-05 is a lovely, light and bouncy guitar, sweet, rich, but lacks progection, (as Mahogany does) and some tend to distort if you lean on them too much.
Since selling my old Martin D-28 to Finance my first Larrivee in 1972, I didn't think I would notice the difference and miss a BR guitar UNTIL I got my C-09 in BR, traded it, then got it back. And yes there's no question, it's a boomer, banjo killer, and is a completely different sounding, playing and feeling guitar than it's mahogany brother.
But according to this article, there is really no difference, and evidently people can't tell the difference.
Heck, even WITH electronics installed, just this past week-end, for my friday gig, I took the BR C-09, but decided it was too over bearing, and the next night I took the C-05.
Same pick up system, same sound system, same guitar body, same maker, different tone woods, and (for me) completely different stage and sound responses.
So THAT is why (I felt) this is a controversial article, and the author had tin ears or something.
I WOULD like to think all this junk I have just spoken to was about my justification for owning several guitars, if I followed the authors line of thinking, I would/should be happy with a $300 solid top, plywood Yamaha.
Imagine what I could then do with all the funds I have invested in the guitars I own and LOVE to play!!!
Kevin, I certainly agree with you as far as most of it goes. But is talking about our own guitars and other guitars somehow a little different? Do we come to know what to expect from a guitar we own as opposed to one right off the wall? I do think knowing when a guitar is slightly out of tune is a horse of a different color. One doesn't necessarily imply the other. Heck, a decent pyanny player can tell that. :winkin:
It simply comes down to playing what sounds good to you.
Quote from: JOYCEfromNS on November 23, 2014, 01:33:16 PM
Will try and save you 5 minutes .
Detailed description of various woods. Doesn't believe that unquartered wood is a handicap. Doesn't think the species of wood contributes to the tone of a guitar. Don't be concerned with with tap tones or tap tuning. Believes that good work and experience is everything. None of this will sway a mind that is already drenched in traditional guitar mythology.
Thanks. I think I've read that before. I do believe that there are things that negate the assumed benefit of tap tuning though I haven't built anything myself.
Sides have little impact and one only needs to knock on the sides to hear how dead they are.
As far as the back and the species goes, my ears hear clear differences there.
Quote from: ducktrapper on November 24, 2014, 07:33:52 AM
Kevin, I certainly agree with you as far as most of it goes. But is talking about our own guitars and other guitars somehow a little different? Do we come to know what to expect from a guitar we own as opposed to one right off the wall? I do think knowing when a guitar is slightly out of tune is a horse of a different color. One doesn't necessarily imply the other. Heck, a decent pyanny player can tell that. :winkin:
I think one of the points he was trying to make is 2 similar guitars made of the same tonewoods can sound just as alike or just as different as 2 similar guitars built of different tonewoods. :wacko:
Quote from: L07 Shooting Star on November 24, 2014, 08:09:53 PM
I think one of the points he was trying to make is 2 similar guitars made of the same tonewoods can sound just as alike or just as different as 2 similar guitars built of different tonewoods. :wacko:
I'm a bit lost on the question, and the subsequent follow up.
We certainly all have ur own preferences and bias around such matters.
My only experience is with my guitars, and others i have tried, and how I felt at the time.
Suffice to say, for me, I have narrowed my own feelings down, around experience, and making the same mistakes, expecting different outcome (insanity).
I have no doubt missed a very important point around the article and misread the wrong thing(s) into it.
(I'm good at that), for that error, I apologize.
But over the years, I have become pretty good at playing different guitars in different stores and towns, from different companies, made of different woods etc.
Rarely do any of them call to me, even thpugh I want them to.
maybe, like others, I am simply spoiled and mostly happy with what I own and what my expectations of those guitars now are.
Of course, I could be just old and set in my ways, but it took many a Maple guitar before I finally was won over by my current purchase....
I was trying to clarify one of his points. I didn't do a very good job methinks.
I certainly wasn't saying I agree with the article, Kevin. Your experience and conclusions are just as valid as his, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe more so since you have a lifetime of playing and performing behind you. I'm basically on the fence, I guess, and I defer to those with more knowledge and experience than me.
I don't think the article is controversial. I think many of his contentions are wrong. I and most can readily tell the difference in sound between a rosewood and mahogany B&S guitar. However I don't think it is nearly as likely to differentiate between swamp ash and say silveroak. On the other hand I agree with that author that there is too much obsession with little details and a tendency toward magical thinking, as if the specs make the guitar and not the skill.
Quote from: cke on November 24, 2014, 09:25:59 PM
I don't think the article is controversial. I think many of his contentions are wrong. I and most can readily tell the difference in sound between a rosewood and mahogany B&S guitar. However I don't think it is nearly as likely to differentiate between swamp ash and say silveroak. On the other hand I agree with that author that there is too much obsession with little details and a tendency toward magical thinking, as if the specs make the guitar and not the skill.
:+1:
That's my take on it too.
Honestly?
I feel decadent and just plain greedy around having more guitars than is really needed.
Regardless of professional or performance justification, having this much of some of the worlds rapidly disappearing timbers only makes me part of the problem.
Quote from: headsup on November 24, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
Honestly?
I feed decadent and just plain greedy around having more guitars than is really needed.
Regardless of professional or performance justification, having this much of some of the worlds rapidly disappearing timbers only makes me part of the problem.
Don't take it all so seriously. Or are you being cynical? I can't tell for sure. Don't like to see you (or any participant) in such a funk, Kevin.
:cheers :guitar
Not cynical at all, but there does come a time in ones life of "empire building" and acquiring "stuff" that it gets difficult to justify.
And I'm hijacking my own topic,.
Regarding obsession with tone issues, the bone (or any other material) nut and saddle debate, would.could, certainly play into the scenario, as could, bridge pin material etc.
There is a school of thought that fingerboard material also affects the sound on an instrument.
And yes I still maintain, "tone is all in the fingertips".
Tone is in the finger tips. Overtones are in the wood. :coffee
If I was an insensitive conservative, I would offer to consider taking any guitars off of anyone's hands who feels guilty about owning them. Just saying. :laughin:
Quote from: headsup on November 24, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
Regardless of professional or performance justification, having this much of some of the worlds rapidly disappearing timbers only makes me part of the problem.
If you push this statement to it's logical conclusion, then you should only play gigs that are close to where you live - otherwise you're unnecessarily using up more fossil fuels than necessary.
I personally think this is fuzzy logic. Your purchase of X number of guitars, whether that's 2 or 22, helps feed the economy. The nicer the instruments, the more you're helping pump up the economy and creating jobs. Restringing all those guitars creates jobs. If you had someone else do the set-ups (I know you don't - most players do), that creates jobs, etc. You're putting food on other people's tables as well as your own.
Relax. Thanks for helping feed the world.
:+1:
Quote from: ducktrapper on November 25, 2014, 08:55:36 AM
If I was an insensitive conservative, I would offer to consider taking any guitars off of anyone's hands who feels guilty about owning them. Just saying. :laughin:
If I weren't a lefty, I'd say :+1: to Tom's comment...
And back on topic, I think the truth (as emotional as truth about acoustic guitar tone woods is!) is somewhere in between. I *think* I can hear the difference between different guitar woods when I'm looking at them and playing them in person, but I know I wouldn't have a clue what guitar is being played by artist X on song X.
I was a huge Bruce Cockburn fan for years, but it wasn't until several years after I bought my first Larrivee that I learned he played Larrivees (and owned one of the earliest, if not the first, Larrivee cutaway L body). I didn't know Jimmy Page was playing a Telecaster on early Led Zeppelin - not just by listening. The list of examples could go on.
Back to personal experience: I used to own an LV-09 (Indian Rosewood b/s), now I own a C-10 (Silver Oak b/s). Never played them side by side, but my memory/experience tells me that the LV-09 had a much bigger bass, and sounded incredible tuned down to D or even C on the bottom string. The C-10 isn't that deep, but is still a well balanced guitar. Tonewoods? Or is it just down to the individual build - everything from the braces to how tight the dovetail joint is?
Who knows. :donut :coffee
I think various woods tend towards certain general characteristics, but I agree with whoever said there is much variation in similar guitars made of the same woods. Very often, as much as there is in similar guitars made of different woods.
In general, I like mahogany guitars. I don't like them all, but I like more mahogany guitars than any other wood.
In general, I'm not big on maple guitars. My "main" guitar for a bunch of years was a Taylor 422 maple/spruce grand concert.
Ed
Quote from: Mikeymac on November 25, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
If you push this statement to it's logical conclusion, then you should only play gigs that are close to where you live - otherwise you're unnecessarily using up more fossil fuels than necessary.
I personally think this is fuzzy logic. Your purchase of X number of guitars, whether that's 2 or 22, helps feed the economy. The nicer the instruments, the more you're helping pump up the economy and creating jobs. Restringing all those guitars creates jobs. If you had someone else do the set-ups (I know you don't - most players do), that creates jobs, etc. You're putting food on other people's tables as well as your own.
Relax. Thanks for helping feed the world.
:+1:
If I weren't a lefty, I'd say :+1: to Tom's comment...
LOL. Good one! :laughin:
Quote from: ducktrapper on November 24, 2014, 07:33:52 AM
Kevin, I certainly agree with you as far as most of it goes. But is talking about our own guitars and other guitars somehow a little different? Do we come to know what to expect from a guitar we own as opposed to one right off the wall? I do think knowing when a guitar is slightly out of tune is a horse of a different color. One doesn't necessarily imply the other. Heck, a decent pyanny player can tell that. :winkin:
I think you meant to say "horse of a different feather",
I merely used the tuning analogy to indicate, I have sensitive ears by anyone's standing.
:cheers
i have larrivees made out of hog, eirw, zebrawood, grevillia robusta, pincoda and bubinga. sitka, red sitka and hog tops. 00's, 000's, om's, L's and LV's. they are all different but they all sound like larrivees. even the new bracing in the 40's that i own sound like larrivees (just better). so maybe the guy is kinda right. martins sound like martins. gibsons like gibsons and so on.
roscoe
Quote from: headsup on November 26, 2014, 07:31:12 PM
I think you meant to say "horse of a different feather",
I merely used the tuning analogy to indicate, I have sensitive ears by anyone's standing.
:cheers
I don't doubt it and I meant what I said which is not always the the case. Horse feathers notwithstanding. :cheers
I know what he meant.
Quote from: ducktrapper on December 01, 2014, 04:55:01 PM
I don't doubt it and I meant what I said which is not always the the case. Horse feathers notwithstanding. :cheers
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey
Zebrawood. The smell of zebrawood used to nauseate me, but through experience, I've come to enjoy it.
this is a quote from that article. it does stink! i thought somebody barfed in mine. i got used to it but may never enjoy it.
roscoe
Quote from: Queequeg on December 01, 2014, 05:52:21 PM
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey
Or, as my best friend from college taught me to say,
"I meant what you knew."
:winkin:
Two psychiatrist colleagues pass each other on the street on their way to work. One says to the other "Hi Joe, how am I today?"
Quote from: L07 Shooting Star on December 02, 2014, 10:49:46 PM
Two psychiatrist colleagues pass each other on the street on their way to work. One says to the other "Hi Joe, how am I today?"
Ha! Thanks for the laugh, I'd never heard that one.