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Main Forums => Technique & Playing => Topic started by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:14:26 PM

Title: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:14:26 PM
Copying over from pass on your tips as this is going to be more than simple little tips as I intended the other thread to be for. I will trasfer posts starting with how chords are made and what chords go with what keys as they will relate to 3rd's and give a reference to look back at. Any teachers or knowledgable others please feel free to add or correct. I just dug this stuff out on my own with no formal study other than basic understanding of theory from books. Also any one who has things related to 3rd's in anyway please add! If anyone has questions, please ask. I'll try to answer if I can or perhaps someone else can. I've heard people on here's stuff and I KNOW there's folks that know more about this stuff than I do.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:17:09 PM
Basic chord theory for biginners or people who never got around to learning.
Chords are named by referencing the major scale of the key that is the name of that chord.
 In other words for a C type chord you're referencing C major scale. (do-re-mi ect)
for D chord you're referencing D Major scale.

do is I, re is II, mi is III fa is IV, so is V, la is VI, te is VII "and that brings us back to DOOOOO(sorry) This Do is octive. Keep going above octive and you end up with 9th 11'th 13th ect.

 Chords are named by what notes out of that scale you are using or what you've done with them, (flatted, raised)

Major chord uses 1st, 3rd, 5th notes out of scale

Minor uses 1st, flatted 3rd(lower 1/2 step or 1 fret) and 5th.

Suspended short for suspended 4th. replace 3rd with 4th note in scale. I guess it's called suspended because that's how it sounds. Wants to get back to 3.

Augmented is short for Augmented(raised) 5th In C knock G note up to G#

Dominent flats 7th note in scale. Often just notated as (x)7 a major 7th uses non flatted 7th and is notatated Maj 7

Diminished   flat 3, flat 5 and 6th. can be named by any note in chord and repeats itself every 3 frets up (or down)

The rest of names are pretty much just what note you added from scale to chord.
A  C6 just adds the 6th note (A) to chord.

9ths, 11ths, 13ths aren't always octive above root. If called by that name however they are assumed to be built off of a dominent chord and as such will have b7 as well. 

Well that's all times allows. Hope that's somewhat clear. Any ?'s ask. Or if someone with better knowledge wants to add
or correct (I don't think I said anything outright incorrect) please add comments.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:18:17 PM

When in a certain key what chords are likely to work? First know that these are not hard and fast rules, but generally speaking.
Lets take key of C for simplicity. C has no sharps or flats so the NOTES that make up C major are c-d-e-f-g-a-b then repeat.
On keyboards thats white keys only. The standard triad chords that fit a key uses only the notes that are in that key. (talking triads, not dominent, or any kind of dim or altered ect)
 You start with the c note for first chord. Take the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes (every other note in the c maj scale) and you end up with C E G which is a C Chord.
Move up to the next note in scale, D and do the same thing. 1st, 3rd, 5th notes starting with D, using only the notes from C scale.You end up with DFA. If you refernce back to how chords are named a couple of post back, you see that is a Dm chord.
Up again to starting with E and taking  every other note that's in the C Major scale. 1-3-5 and you have Em
Starting with F you get F major
Starting with G you get G major
Starting with A you get Am
Starting with B you get B b3b5 (B with flatted 3rd and flatted 5th) That can sound scarey but if you go back to how chords are named it should make sense.
In summary all you are doing is using the ONLY THE NOTES THAT ARE IN THE SCALE YOU ARE PLAYING IN to make basic triads of all chords used for that key..
Start with each note from that scale and take every other note above it, (1-3-5) to make chord!

No matter what MAJOR key you are playing in the sequence will always be Maj min min Maj Maj Min and (b3 b5)
Again this is MOST of the time and generally speaking.  Many are familier for example of using the II chord as a major in like a country or southern gospel song.Definitley other exceptions as well. Hope somebody learns something. As always if I gaffed something pounding this out quickly, please correct me. I don't think so.
NOTE: In talking with friend the other night it seems that perhaps more serious theory would include some major 7ths or other extended chords as the primary chords for a scale.  

Found this link also which explains pretty much the same way but maybe a thing or 2 to add. 

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:20:02 PM
I AM NOT A GUITAR WIZARD. I've been playing since I was 15 and I'm 51 now. (What a difference flipping the 1 and 5 around make huh?) This stuff came SLOW to me. My desire is to share these things that I came to the hard way. Like every 2 years coming across something cool an then exploring it and ABUSING it. My thing has alway been to find things that a half axx player(myself) can do that aren't that hard but really add a lot.
Yes things like the 3rds take some practice and work, but God willin and the creek don't rise, time WILL go by and a year or two later they come quite naturally! Remember this. The hardest thing may be getting started on guitar. Those torturous hours of changing from G to C to D. And then just when you're feelin all big you go for the F chord. Sometimes I think they call it F for a reason.
These 3rds and a lots of other little movements I've put on here are no where near as hard as learning F. If you put 1/4th the work in as you did learning F you can expand. That was way to much rambling.............................

Starting to use 3rd's for leads or walk ups to after years of playing is one of the best things I've ever done. Highly recommended.
I'm going to put just the notes AND explain it theory wise. If the theory is confusing, forget it. Get back to it later though.
I consider this first set to be based out of D shape chord. If you walk these 3rds straight up the neck you get the D major scale in 3rd's
Do RE MI-----------
You're only using 2 fingers, not hard! Just a matter of learning pattern. Learn the whole pattern straight up the neck to start. But when using in practical terms you'll usually just us portions. Here's a couple of very simple ways to start incorporating them into playing 1 step at a time.. Your playing in D just do this
That's right just splitting the time you're spending on D by going up and right back down. Next step. Take it one notch higher.
6/----------------------------------(5)with thumb---------------------------------------
Here your doing the same thing but playing the D chord on 5th and 7th fret. LISTEN, when using the 3rd position as a D chord go ahead and play the 3rd string as well. That not only makes it fuller but defines it as a D chord clearly.  Don't get hung up on this right now but theres more to say about that. I won't muddy the water,yet. The important thing is to get used to these kind of movements. The rest of the notes are optional but all are correct notes for D chord.

Then you could step it up some more
Here your just walking it up a little further, then right back down to D. This could/would all happen while song is staying on D.
So you and bud usually just strum pretty easy songs. While (s)he's justing sittin there struming a D chord, throw that in. They'll go "man where did that come from"?Play around and find different ways to use them. It won't come overnite but these aren't too hard and if you keep incorporating them a little peice at a time, you can start using them pretty darn quickly. There's much more. As long as someone says they are intersted AND practicing this stuff I'll keep on, like ideas of what to do when this simple D song changes to G chord, then A chord. The 3rds on 2nd and 3rd strings, 3rd and 4th strings. How you can add notes to these easily. (after all you've got 2 free fingers there ready for duty) ect.
  These can be thought of as little pieces of chords. If you go back and look at what chords make up what keys you'll see the pattern goes Maj min min MAJ MAJ min then (b3 b5). 
Your taking the open D shape chord and and walking the scale up the neck using  D chord shapes, changing it to a Dm shape chord where appropriate and only using the note on 1 and 2nd string, which happens to be the I and III of the chord. (hence 3rds) Heres the same thing I put up in first diagram showing the whole chord with other note in shape included in ( ) This () note is the 5th
Remember chords in key M m m M M m (b5b7)
              I D maj       II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   
The 3rd string is the 5th of your triad, the 2nd string the 1 and the first string the 3rd. If you want, check this out. Play the scale up the neck like this and use entire chord. It'll make earier post about what chords work in a key clearer. Remember the shapes are all either an open D shape or Open Dm shape (except VII) just moved up the neck. Well I suppose that's a bit to keep someone busy a while. This is good stuff. Sensibud of tips. highly recommended.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:21:30 PM
For mandolin, these same types of things are GREAT.
Same idea. 1 is on the 1st string this time though and 3rd on the 2nd string(s)
This would be working out of a G chord

    G chord

If you play mandolin  you know that since the strings are all tuned the same interval from each other, you can simply move
chord  shape over a string and use same shape so you can  do same thing 3rds wise on 2nd and 3rd string using C shape.
    C chord
anywhere you use that chord shape, the same 3rd pattern will apply above it.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:23:59 PM
I was wondering where to go next and decided on staying on the first 2 strings for a while. Those are the easiest, and I stayed there quite a while before going to other string pairs. I'm just gonna add one little piece to 3rds already mentioned. It also adds a little twist
to theory. I will put my guess as why it works, open to correction. But it definitely does work. Here it is

The (8) and (10) replace the 9,10 of original layout in prev post.  I'll string something longer out that demonstrates different sound.
The first  ascention and descention will be pretty close to Rose in Spanish Harlem that Larry mentioned.
The second will add the "new" pair of notes.
There it is. Why does it work when not one of the primary chords in key. Here's my GUESS
I don't know! I will say this. We assume the whole chord would be Am.  (Remember the 1st string of these pairs is the 3rd. What happens when you flatten the 3rd IE 9th fret to 8th fret? From explanation of chords we know that a minor chord is defined by flattened 3rd.)   
Why Am fits in key of D I can't explain but it does. you could play a little progression
that goes D Am G D right? Play these chords, just big open chords behind the change and hear it. Just assume everything up to that point is a D chord behind it for this purpose.
Backing chords D>                                                                             D     Am       G       D

That's all I'm gonna say about that. (isn't that a Forrest Gump line?)

Plant this seed in your mind. You are only playing 2 notes which means they could be 2 notes out of another chord than one shown
in previous post. Take the 5-7 combo. It could be the Ist and 3rd of F#min as shown in prev post, 5-7-6 , or it could be the 3rd and 5th of D chord. 5-7-7. That's why in example 3 of original post I said to play 5-7-7 to define it as D.   If that's confusing, it's supposed to be, for now. So don't get hung up on it if it is and just learn patterns and keep nibbling at theory. I can tell you I'll be having to think and learn as I try to get this stuff down in writing. As always correction or further explanation/ idea's more than welcome!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:25:07 PM
Ok you can use your pinky very easily to add a note to these forms. Perhaps a hammer on or whatever. Stay there a while if it fits.
If you make these the way I do, it's pretty much just a matter putting pinky down from where it already is resting. Easily added
 note notated in ( ) Note that this is 4th in scale if you care to. Or do what I usually do and just think of it as a note that can be added.


Doesn't take much of a stretch on D Major Shape based shapes to reach on up and get 2 frets up from (x) to get 5th.

A quick review demonstrating why these are 3rd's
   D Chord       Dm chord       
 These 2 shapes are what's used for these 1st set of 3rd's we're looking at.
No matter where they are up neck same theory applies.

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(2)-F# note--III- Me-3rd----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do----------------------------------
           D MAJOR  Do  Mi =1 and 3rd of scale

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(1)-F note--bIII-minor 3rd -----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do--------------------------------
                      D MINOR CHORD  1 and b3 of D  scale

So basically what you have for these D shape based 3rds going right up the neck, is that when the first string is
one fret lower than second string, it's a major. When it's 2 frets lower it's a minor.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
Most of what has been shown so far is not only in the key of D but things that fit good while actually on D chord.
Now still in key of D we'll get started on options when going on thru G chord and A chord.
 We'll get started using a most basic progression. Along with a basic use of 3rd's



Chord  D


Change to G chord


Change to A chord       then finish on a D chord

What we're doing here is just moving the original D chord shape up until its a G chord  then up til it's an A chord
and playing the same pattern above it each time.

    D chord                        G chord                         A chord

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:31:02 PM

I've been doing these since you've been posting.  Just that one piece of info from previous post outlining the Dmaj and Dmin shape difference was an "oh cool" moment.  I like travelling up the fretboard as I tend to hang out in the comfort zone of the first five frets so very often.  So as you're posting these and explaining them, it gets me moving around the fretboard as well as understanding the relationships of the thirds in a physical way.  Thanks.
:thumb Yea, I wanted to make sure the relationship was clear, because like I said early, it will lead to "seeing" chords eventually.
You're seeing this piece of one, know right off where the 1st and 3rd are. You can hunt arount for 7th, 6th whatever and have whole chord. I'm excited that someones following along. :thumb
 THIS IS WHAT IT"S ABOUT FOLKS! And this basic theory isn't that complicated once you remove head block. If you can count to 8 and have ability to add or subtract .5 from those numbers, that's all you need to do to understand BASIC theory!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:37:18 PM
I'm going to start winding down on D shapes on 1st and second string but adding important stuff about them on my way out.

First to add more about what to do when changing chords while still in key of D. The same pattern is going to apply, pretty much,
and on the same frets. It's just that moving where you start , can follow the chord and feeling of song.
  When using 3rds in the manner I had in mind explained SO FAR, your pretty much playing lead with them.  So just as when your playing single string lead, there's no set pattern to use. You want to experiment with starting into pattern in various places,
skipping around, whatever to play a melody using them. Of course often a straight run up or down works great for leading into next chord. So experiment and start infiltrating them into playing and more ideas will come. You can come in and out of these while playing single string lead, or little pieces while your playing rhyrhm with mostly fuller chords. Remember to look for other notes you can
 add to them. Rememer as with any chord you can always slide into them from a fret below (or above)

 2/------2----3-------------4---5----- ect. This would just be sliding up the whole form from below, not staying on lower set.
        So experiment

Ok this next part is crucial that you understand.  When using these in another key besides D, just remember that as in any scale
pattern, the same patterns will apply only the entire pattern will shift up or down the neck. I'l give example comparing D to E
and just apply that to whatever other key you want. As pattern pushes to 12th fret it's gonna pop back up at the bottom
Ie the nut or 1st fret.

Heres D again.
          I D maj          II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   

E, everything scoots up 2 frets. Top end of pattern drops down to nut end.

    VI C#min     VII  C#b5b3       I E maj       II f#m         III Abmin       IV AMaj          V B Maj                       
3/--------(1)----------(2)----------  (4)-----------(6)-----------(7)---------------(9)--------------(11)-------------
see where pattern just starts 2 frets up? If having trouble seeing put capo on 2nd fret and see original pattern up 2 frets

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:38:35 PM
2 more ideas which will give you hints of how to get started expanding your use of these to:
(1) find 3rd's on other string pairs
(2) derive chords out of this knowledge.

Back in tips thread I believe I commented how open E  open A and open D are pretty much the same chord shape moved across
the strings. The inconsistant interval between the strings, because of 2nd string being tuned lower, just causes you to have to compensate for that. Oh yea maybe I can just go back and cut and paste that, hold on a minute....................................
I'm back. Found it!

It's good to know that open E, open A, and open D are really the same chord form, in a way. You're just moving the whole chord over a string. Since the B, 2nd string, has a different interval from 3rd string than all the other strings have to each other, you just have to compensate when when moving chord over a string. Anyone who plays mandolin knows that the interval is the same between all strings. Once you learn a chord form, you can just move it over  a string with same shape and have same type of chord a 4th or 5th away depending which way you're going. On guitar when the 2nd string is involved if you go from chords E to A you must raise the finger moving to 2nd string up a fret because 2nd string is tuned lower. When going from A to D again the finger moving from 3rd to 2nd string must move up a fret to compensate giving D shape.
  So the fetted notes on any of these triads always have the same interval. Lowest(pitchwise) fretted note is 5th. middle fretted note is 1st and highest fretted note is 3rd. If you understand that well, then you realize that when you learn one new chord form, you are really learning 3 providing fingering works!
 Example" to go from open chord E to E sus (4th) you just raise highest fretted note one fret, changing it from 3rd to 4th in chord context. The same applies to open A and open D.   So on open E your raising the 3rd string 1 fret.  on open A you raise the 2nd string 1 fret and D  raise the 1st string one fret . All 3 give a a sus4 chord. 

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relitive position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

So for D the 1st and 3rd are on 1st and 2nd strings. This is what we already went well over.
For A they are on 2nd and 3rd strings
On E they are on 3rd and 4th strings.

So open E shape based 3rds are going to use the same pattern up the neck, shifted over to 3rd and 4th strings as D right? Because 3rd is on next  string up, 1 fret down, just as D chape is. And ust like D, when you go to minor lower that 3rd 1 fret. Gives same pattern.

A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3

From this with a little concentration you should be able to get Open E shape base 3rds on strings 3&4 and whole chord.
I'll probably do one more post on deriving chords out of this knowledge, then take a break for several weeks except
little comments if someone asks or posts thier own ideas. I wrote a lot this A.M. with family circus going on around me and
interuptions. If I gaffed anything, find it and let me know!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:40:14 PM
Finding chords by using your knowledge of 3rd's and other aspects of chord construction.

Lets take a D shape chord and tear it up. Grow it new arms and anything else to milk the crap out of this chord form.
were gonna do this up yonder on the 9th fret where it will be an A type chord. Idea is to set in head that this is a D shape
chord that can be used to make all the different name chords, as long as fingering doesn't get impossible. Of course up the neck you can reach more frets. 1st step essential if you want to understand what going on. That being said always look for notes you can add to chords shapes wheather you understand it or not!

1/--------9----------III   Get this down. A basic triad uses 1-3-5 notes out of the major scale which 
2/--------10--------I     bares it's name. Know which fretted note is what degree of the triad.
3/--------9----------V     1st  3rd or 5th. Then  you'll know what you are doing to chord
4/------------------      when you move a note up or down.
  Lets move the 2nd string around and see what happens. I'm skipping the 1st right now on purpose.
   We'll get back to it and then I'll explain it's caveats.(sorry, they like to use that word at work)

1/---9-----9-----9-----9    1st chord is regular A major. The root (I) is on 2nd string.  The major 7th
2/--10-----9-----8-----7    note is always right below  the root.
3/---9------9-----9-----9    So by lowering the 2nd string note 1 fret you get A Maj7 chord.                           
  Lower it again and you get b7th note or Dom 7th, so A7.  Lower it again and you get 6th so A6.
 By same token you could raise the 2nd string to 12th fret and get a D add2.
Note: I've spent the last 15 minutes stepping on the muck in my brain about moving the 3rd string around, specifically down.
If you move it down 1 fret to 8th fret you get diminished 5th note. feel free to throw it in there. To turn it into a true diminished chord to many other things come into play, so I'm gonna bag that. Let's go up with it though.

1/---9----9----9-----9----- start with A maj. By raising third string up 1 fret you have
2/--10--10---10---10----augmented (raised)5th. A aug chord.
3/---9---10---11---12----By raising again you add 6th note. A6.
                                   Raise again and you have b7 note or A7.                                                     
Ok now lets go on a little journey to show what you can find if you hunt and peck around.  The following is a true story or exmaple
of my thought process. The names have not been changed and all are assumed guilty.
On the previous example I really like using the 6th and flatted 7th for a little rock & roll feel. But 2 things, I've got a pretty good
pinky but, is there an easier way to do it? Secondly and probably more importantly. That R&R lick out of that chord is a little trebly
and thin for rythm. Wonder if I can get the 4th string in the game to beef it up.  Alright let me see what the 4th string has to
offer. I still don't know every note instantly all over neck so I bumble around til I figure out that theres a note on 11th fret 4th
string that works. Check it out more and figure out it's the 3rd. Well that's great but now I've got all 4 fingers tied up. How can I do my little boogie thing? Well the first string was playing the 3rd before, but now I don't need it, found me another. So let me
abandon the 1st string and concentrate on 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and arrange fingers so I can do my boogie. End up with

1/------------------    open or muted in A's case since E fits in chord.
2/---M----10--------  Shape used on some other frets will have to be muted. NOW my pinky is more
3/---I------9---(11)(12)(11) directly in position for boogie notes and bassier chord.
4/---R----11--------- And look at all this gravey! Being an A chord, the 1st,
5/------------------   5th and 6th string can  ring open and fit chord!
6/------------------    A beautiful chimey little creature. A great chord AND EASY!
  That's what I'm lookin for. My little boogie lick is in ( )
Experiment. move that 4th string note up and down. See what she got.

If you're following this bless you. Cause were gonna take it further. The flatted 7th here works great for my boogie lick but
as just a 7th chord doesn't have enough bite. That bluesy sting. For that I want my 2nd string 7th back! But I still like using the 4th string. Hmm  I could do this.

1/--------------- Well that works, I guess. A little bit of a stretch for this wimp. No real special sound.
2/-----I---8----- Let see if I can get fingers in better position. I can walk the 4th string down
3/----M---9-----and find next -note that fits. I remember that's not what I did in this case.
4/----R---11-- Not by that method. I used this trickwhich is a good one. Look for the same
5/--------------type chord as your making, A in this case, in the next position down.
6/-------------  -in this case it's a Barred A on the 5th fret. See if the notes played on higher frets of that form, can marry withthe lower fretted notes of form above it. A chord diagram show both chord would be nice.
But just make  A barred A on 5th fret and picture this A7 above it. Bottom line is you can arrive at this.

                      Now this is a great 7th chord.  Warm but very funky. Get some good
1/----------            20's,30's blues sound out of it.
2/---8---M---      Non fretted strings can rings open, they also can when using as an E chord
3/---9---R-------. down the neck. You've lost your 3rd here, which
4/---7---I---------books will tell you is all important, but who cares
5/------------------When using on various other frets you may have to mute open
6/------------------ strings or you can always do either or, of 2 following things marked with ( )


Ok that about killed me. I'm picturing people hanging themselves across country or even the world. Ryler you OK?
 Weather you followed the whole story or not is not as important as getting the idea of finding your own stuff.
I'm beat and I'm not going back to Original D shape and first string options. If you made it thru this, you'll get the idea.
The caveat on 1st string is that it's the 3rd and book tell you it's crucial to define chord. I find it is when defining minor,
but as we just proved with above chord, I don't think it always needed.  GOOD NIGHT!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:41:48 PM

I hung with you through it all, and believe I even get it.  I was playing Norwegian Wood last night in D and there was all the stuff you laid out emphasizing a dance up the fretboard on the first two strings with a steady bass drone below it.   I'm going to need to spend some time on the last two posts to get it ingrained--that sense of knowing what I'm playing within each chord.

I can't thank you enough for all you put into this lesson.  Take your well-deserved break, get full up on turkey and we'll see you back here at the stompin' ground for some guitar chit chat.  Much obliged for sharing your knowledge.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:44:14 PM
Well I guess I got a pretty good start with A already. I'm gonna post what I already had For A,
Then just put a couple practical things you can do maybe not so much just using the 3rds but
triad or more that the 3rds were derived from. Remember that part of what you're trying to
do here is see the whole chord that can be used as well.  Refresher from earlier post.
A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3. Notes in ( ) complete triad.
Here a couple little things that aren't too hard. (my constant goal) These would fall in the
"beyond" part of post heading. Something you can end up seeing as you see the 3rd's


Important to make the open A barred with 1st finger. Then all you have to do is lay middle
and ring down to get 2nd chord.. I usually get 3rd chord with 1-2-3 fingers. This is the same
 thing we did with D, Just in A. The song would be holding on A chord and you just go
between two A chords with the middle step added. You can mix it up. Go down,
Maybe  just go back and forth between the first 2 chords a couple times then up to the
 5th fret. Play around with it.

Add a step to it. for 4th chord all you have to do is lay down pinky

 Or how bout

3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9................
Wanna go even further?
3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9......9.....9......14
Sorry 12 fretters but if you just get 2nd and 3rd strings it works.  On 2nd to last chord
again your just laying down pinky and other fingers remain in place. Notice that the main
feeling of movement is coming from 2nd string.. You could change that to 3rd string.

3/..........2.........4........6.......6.......7....... 9......9.....11......14
For ease and time lets just give 3rd string more emphasis between 2nd and 5th fret.
So you can find notes to add in to get a feeling of movement that aren't hard to do.
Folks this is probably cheating! A jazz miester could very likely have a whole nother
chord shape instead of just adding a note to exsisting chord. But it works and adds a lot
 for players at my level.
  I'm not gonna redo all these diagrams but do this. Just pretend, or actually, play like a 12 bar
blues. (even though these have major feel) when it's time to go up to the D chord just scoot
the whole pattern up 5 frets to 7th, and do the same thing, when it's time for E start at 9th fret.
Of course you'll run out of room, but that give the idea of moving patterns around, just like we did
with D.
 Time to go, but I think I need to do one more on this thread to show caviats and little interesting
things that are going thru my head that might make you think more.  When you strip a chord down
it is less harmonically bound  :roll   Sorry that just was a more sophisticated word than I'm used to.
But anyway it's less defined and can go more directions or could be a substitute for multiple chords.
One more later. (didn't I already say that?)

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:46:07 PM
Now my long history has been as a flat picker but The last year or so I've been working on finger pickin which is starting
to come along. But anyway, It may be even more important for a finger picker to begin to see the bigger picture, cause
after all your thumb is probably cryin "let me play some bass notes!".  Well one thing  when playing out of A  is that a lot of
the things we've shown have the opportunity to just use the open bass strings and keep the thumb busy. Idle thumbs are the devils workshop after all for a finger picker. So open A and E may work for one thing. Otherwise just play around and reach over there
and grab ya one til you find one fretted that works. It can lead to finding some neat chords and relationships.
In fact let me just throw out a couple ideas along the discovery lines.
           A        F#m7               A       F#m
The first change you were just huntin for a bass note so you  reached over with your first finger, actually you're barreing
across 3-4-5 strings and you find one. Then you say well that sounds like a whole new chord, Well that's because it is.
By adding that one note you've changed the chord from an A to an F#m7.
Hopefully from previous discussion, you understand the 1st chord A and where it comes from. If the 2nd on isn't plain at first, realize that is just formed out of your regular open Am (7)shape. Heres the full chord(s)
3/.......... 11......9...........................................................................
            F#m     F#m7

So knowing that everything is always relitive
you have figured out that anytime you can 1 note to a major and make it a relitive minor 7th, (VI chord is the relitive minor
remember) By the same token which is something you should definitely understand, the second example just changes it to
an F#m.  That is usually very easy to do and the one note to change is usually very handy. Hence you can also see why the
VI minor is called relitive. It's almost the same as the I chord. I've got to get dinner then I'm gonna give one more example.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:50:45 PM
AGAIN THIS IS WHAT IT"S ABOUT! Apparently "long gone Larry" was able to apply this to stuff he was working on. When you do that it concretes stuff up in your head and you don't forget it.
A large portion of what I do is stuff I came across myself. If I spend time digging it out I never forget it and can apply it to other tunes.

ok. I have studied your lesson ....and....I GET IT !

You are playing a 3 note triad for the major - the neat thing is you are using what I think are called INSIDE CHORDS -
AND you are getting this MAJOR by playing the inside notes of a IVmin 7th... chord form
Then when you add in the bass note you get the IV min 7th.

I have also figured out that if I use the open E chord form in barr form for the major
THEN it is also very easy to drop that E form down one string and get the IV minor .

...also easy to drop and lift one finger to get the minor 7th.

So I can slide my E form barr down the neck to get many other keys.

I wondered how to APPLY this -
I can recall hearing songs with that chord progression -
It was similar to a suspended chord used for tension that would resolve back to the major.

So I guess it could be used at the end of a song, or possible in the intro, or maybe in the bridge ????

When using it for suspense I've noticed that if I play
MAJOR,   IV minor or IV minor 7th , then raise the flated 3rd note to a sharp 3rd for one beat, and go back to the flat 3rd
it makes a nice little suspense sound to resolve back to the major !!   :bgrin:

TEX, if I was there I'd buy you a BBQ dinner.

- Larry

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:52:06 PM
I am really HAPPY right now, sorry, I just spent an hour and a half writing out some really cool stuff and when I went to post it it got lost!   :laughin: :laughin: :laughin: :laughin: :laughin: :laughin: :laughin: See how happy?
It gave more examples of how changing one note can change chord. How stripped down chords become more flexible and can be used as substitutes more easily. Like how a stripped down 7th chord, minus the root, can sub for a diminished ect.
The Em were gonna use below could also be used as a G6. I explained it all and with diagrams but if you take the time to figure out why youself it would be a great exorsise. Just figure what notes make up G6 and what makes Em and compare. The G6 is missing 5th.

Dang I'm mad. But anyway I will redo the last bit which will be fun and give an extended idea of how you can use this stuff. Like I said earlier I use most of this stuff on simple songs
Dylan. "don't think twice, it's alright" Chords G-D-Em-C-G-D-G.

5/                                                     2
6/                                                     3
         G    D      Em    C       G      D      G
I finger pick this and use what I posted as intro and between verses. The 3 and 4 string can be gotten by thumb.
You can always hammer on additional notes .
Notice the last G is our big open friend which put me in position to start singing verses with big open chords.
Notice how only 1 note changes to go from Em to C.
Disect that G6 Em relationship. Ask questions about it if your having a hard time gettin it. I'll try to answer.
 :bgrin: :bgrin:

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:53:45 PM
To sum this thing up at this point, there were really 2 ideas here, the way I see it.
The first is just using 3Rd's as double stops (playing two notes at a time) to add a pretty fills or even entire lead break.
Kinda gives it a Spanish feel or mandolin feel.
 The second, although not as flashy, but more important is that hopefully it helps you visualize a map of the
fretboard better. I think of it as learning chords from the inside out. You learn how the chords go by starting with just the 3Rd's.
That makes the patterns pretty easy to learn. Then you picture the triad by adding one note, then you start to see the extensions
off of them.  I know for me looking at a lot of the chords up the neck, they were just globs of notes. If they don't make any sense to you and you're simply trying to memorize all these chords or just learning them to play one particular song, they are hard to use
at will like when you're jammin with someone.
 Anyway I enjoyed putting this stuff down and it has given me some new revelations as well.
As a final note I again say that although you could use this stuff to keep right on progressing, I play pretty simple stuff and
was just looking for a way to spruce it up some. If your an intermediate player who wants to take the next step and start going up the neck more and it actually making sense, I guarantee this is a good way to go. Thats a money back guarantee! :laughin: Make sure you take the time to understand chord construction, figure stuff out on your own, start implementing
the ideas into your day to day playing, then just let time take it toll.
Let me add this link that I found last night. You can select this instrument, tuning. Put in what key or I think it calls it root,
what type of scale, It will give you tons of different scales and also show you whatever chord you want. You can select how many frets you want the diagram to be of. Just very versatile in the fretboard diagrams it gives you.   matt

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:55:55 PM
A real quick to finish my thought about G6 and Em..............
The rest of the story is that when you play that Em, you could also think of it as a G6 without the 5th. Depending on the context the 5th might not be needed. That particular shape is very close to how you make a G6 out of the Barred F shape on 3rd fret, (G)To be honest I'm not sure when you would want to do that, but I'm sure there's a time when it could come in handy as far as positioning of fingers. Like when it'd be easier to transition into an Em than it would a full G6. I guess another example of when it could be handy is say there's a song book that calls for G6 and your working out your own arrangement perhaps up the neck. You know where an Em is in the area you want to be in. You know you can turn that into a G 6th easily.  Let me tell you how this stuff can work. I just went to search for something like I was just talking about. Took an Em chord up the neck and turned it into a G6. I found a really good chord that's new to me. It was missing a note though so I added the missing note, the important third. I end up with a chord the is the same as a minor 7th.  So now I realize that a 6th's chord relitive minor played as a minor 7th is exactly the same chord. OK damx it I'll make a diagram. lets move it down home to familier territory. Think regular old open Am chord.

2/..........1.........1........1............................1.................................     Am is the relitive 6th of C
5/.............................. .............................3..................................
         Am        Am7     C6                     C6 usually shown in books.

Am 1 b3 5       Am7  1  b3  5  b7        C6  1  3  5  6
      A C  E                A  C   E  G               C  E  G  A
Same notes used for Am7 as for C6. I wonder why they never show that shape as a C6??NOTE: This seems so obvious it makes me wonder if I'm missing something. Somebody want to double check me til I get a chance to review again?)  They alway show like I'll stick at end.
That is even missing the 5th isn't it? Whatever.
That may just be a theoretical exersise which in itself wouldn't be bad, or it could truely come in handy in practical
in some way.  As I'm sitting here dinkin on my guitar I'm finding finding some really good stuff. I'm mean right now.
Practical too. having to do with getting movement out of minor chords. But I'm beat. It's trying to become midnight.
When you start playing with these thing as they start to make sense, you can find some neat stuff. I'm learning enough
thinking about this stuff to think I might be a real boy yet before I die.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:57:19 PM
I think I want to do this next. Ryler had her moment of ah ha that open E-A-D are really the same,
just moved over a string (a fourth higher) and compensating for wierd 2nd string (B).
 Let's look at those chord forms in the manner I was explaining, that is how the shapes will change in the same way to yield same type of chord. Reread the part of why this is important in previous post.
The we'll scoot those forms up the neck. This is basic but to be sure everybody understands.......
When you go up the neck, you can't take the nut with you (actually you can, it's called a capo but that still limits you) So those notes on the nut have to be taken into consideration as well. Maybe we'll end up recognizing up the neck chords in a visual manner. We end up figuring
 out or seeing the chords up the neck in two ways. 1st understanding thier construction starting with
know the 3rd's. Second, just seeing them as the familier open chords by sight. When we do this
we need to take another shape into consideration because it is used up the neck so much.
That is the open C chord shape. It lends itself well for 9th's 11'th '13's because those notes end up being stacked on the higher treble strings usually a better place to capture flavor of chord than
having to stick them in the bass somewhere. I'll make a couple comments then suggest you get a head start on the C shape on your own.
 Make a regular open C7 chord by placing pinky on 3rd string, third fret. That note is B or the flatted 7th of a C chord. If you add the 2nd string 3rd fret, you've made it a 9th chord. See whow the extensions are going to end up piling on top? Also Lower the 7th one fret (have to rearrange fingers)
That makes 6th chord. Lower it again and you have Aug (raised 5th)

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 02:58:23 PM
The purpose of this post is to make clear that open E open A and open D are really the same chord shape on different strings.
The shape is changed as it moves across strings because the interval between 3rd and 2nd string is different that the rest as demonstrated when you tune a guitar to itself, the old fashion way.  The 2nd purpose is to show what other chords we can make from these shapes and seeing that relatively speaking were doing the same things to each chord when we change it. The wicked
B (for bad) string tries to hide this fact from us, but he SHALL be exposed! My start will be easy as I cut and past this from previous

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relative position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

Now we'll start making different type chords out of these shapes at the same time so we can compare them and see that they are all changing in the same way.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------           1/-----1---------bIII
2/-----------------                 2/------1-------bIII         2/----3----------I                                 
3/------0----------bIII            3/...---2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          Em                                     Am                         Dm
We turned it into a minor by flatting the 3rd. On all three shapes the highest fretted note lowered 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/----3---------IV
2/-----------------                 2/-----.3-------IV           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------2----------IV             3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
    E sus                                    Asus                      Dsus
We turned it into a sus (4th note added) chord by raising the 3rd 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/------2-------III           2/-----2----------VII                                 
3/------1----------III              3/-----1---------VII         3/-----2----------V
4/------1---------- VII            4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          EMaj7                            AMaj7                        D Maj 7
We turned them all into major sevenths by lowering root one fret. Thats a tip to remember. The maj 7 note is right below the
root. Find root and count down, makes it easy to find. For Dom (b7) just go down 2 frets (or steps)  Tip: Remember that
when making a chord, a rule is that you don't have 2 notes a 1/2 step apart. This shape introduces that situation when you play
open notes with it.
Use at your own discretion and risk when including the open notes in this shape. I could say more but I won't
right now. Another note. The EM7 may not seem practical and awkward but we're gonna move these up the neck later so it's
important to know where Maj 7 note is.

Another Maj 7 out of this shape, putting major 7th on top so to speak.

                                                                           ( 4)  "Help!!! I fell off the world! I told you the earth was flat!"
1/-----------------                 1/-------4-------VII          1/-----2---------III
2/------4----------VII             2/------2-------III           2/-----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/------2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D
Ok on E I can't really reach it, but again, we'll be going up the neck where the frets are closer, very do-able up there.
Remember with A hopefully you are barreing across 2nd fret with index. If you don't do that, then start. It's a pain at fist but
 WAY, WAY important. With the D shape, obviously the poor fellow fell into space.
Remember the important thing we're doing with all these is watch the shapes change in the same manner!

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III          2/----1----------bVII                                 
3/------1----------III             3/------0---------bVII      3/-----2----------V
4/------0----------bVII           4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
     E7                                     A7                             D7
Kept lowering the Maj 7 down to Dom 7    Can get nice little move doing that BTW. Try playing D-DMa7-D7.

1/-----------------                 1/--------3------bVII        1/-----2---------III
2/------3---------- bVII          2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
       E7                                     A 7                         D (not playing this round)
Putting flatted 7th on top.
open D's revenge!

3/------2---------  V           
I show that not just as a joke, but when the other chords go up the neck, they'll be able to do that trick as well once
the nut is out of the way. 

Well I guess it's not too much revenge cause the other 2 chords can do this.   

1/-----------------                 1/-------2------VI           1/-----2---------III
2/------2---------- VI             2/------2-------III          2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/---2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------                         
       E6                                    A6                          D "*!@##!@#"
Well that should certainly give you the idea that they are the same shape if it wasn't clear and a review of some
of the chords that can be made from those shapes.  Open C chord dissected later. Caution: I'm not gonna have to to
double check my work right now.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 03:02:06 PM
This is the thread I want to combine with new sticky on chords. There's a lot of good stuff here that needs to be in there as too not be wasted AND it has the basic chords theory in the beginning which is needed for the rest to make better sense. matt
For those who know history of thread. This is point where I start copying from the new thread. Everything up to this point was copied from old "3rd's and beyond" thread. The later thread started out about using different combonations of fingers to make an "A" chord and took off from there. I'm having a little bit of a hard time deciding where to start copying. I want to keep thread SOMEWHAT focused but feel funny deciding what stays and goes. The other thread should be intact and you can always go back to it.
For now on this thread I'm going to add some of the condensed, and what I relate to as important points. Hate leaving stuff but what's a boy to do.? I left some stuff out from 3rds and beyond as well including some of my own posts. mm

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 03:41:18 PM
Hi all,
Newbie player wondering if some of the experienced players use fingers 234 for the open EAD chords.
These past months, I've been playing open EAD major chords and variants (minor, 7th, minor 7th) with fingers 123, with index finger as anchor whenever possible.
This past week, someone told me that if I played those same chords with fingers 234, it's easier to slide those shapes up to play the barre chords, as those fingers will already "know" the shapes, and index finger is already free and ready to bar.
Though it seem to make sense, retraining my fingers will be a big shift in gears for me, like taking several steps backward.
Any thoughts?
It's good to play both ways depending on what your doing.  For what you're talking about I would be more inclined to use that mainly for "E" shape chord that's going up neck or coming down to the open position.. Definitely need to add using index to smash (barre) an "A" shaped chord. That leaves a ton of stuff your other fingers can be doing above or on top of chord. From R&R rhythm licks to plating melody or lead. Can be handy for "D" too making a smooth transition to Bm or whatever the VIm would be up neck. Yea you already have the one so don't abandon it, just add different ways to make chords. Sometimes you don't need the full barre, sometimes you do etc.
Hi stollie,

This is a great question.

When working out arrangements I consider the movement of my fingers across the fretboard. That includes paying attention to what comes before and after a particular chord. Sometimes it makes sense to use fingers 123 for a chord shape, and other times 234, or some other combination. For me, the decision is influenced by things like a sense of feeling of flow as I move from one chord to another. 
I know players who bring all fingers for a chord down onto the fretboard simultaneously. You can see the chord shape in their fingers before they land.  I'm all over the place when I play and sometimes I like to keep one or two fingers (fretting hand finger) anchored  as I move through a couple of chord changes. This precludes the all-the-fingers-rise-and-fall-at-the-same-time approach. It also means that the progression of chord changes (rather than an individual chord) dictates how I will place my fingers for a specific sound.
You mentioned "with index finger as anchor wherever possible".
I will often use my third finger as the anchor - especially if I'm working through a progession of chords where the D shape is the core.  My point is, picking an anchor finger can be useful. Being able to use different fingers as anchors can open different approaches.
Does that help?
If you can use fingers 2,3, and 4, to make your C, A, G, E, and D chords you open the possibility to turn them all into movable forms. As a rule, you should try to become comfortable in fingering any chord with any possible combination of fretting hand fingers. The more independence you develop in your fingers, the better player you can become.
Don't leave out the smashed A. Getting fret 2 on strings 2-3-4 with index finger.  It opens up a whole bunch of stuff. Your other fingers are free to add notes across all 6 strings.
Which brings you to the long A form and the triplet patterns you can work from that postion!
Thanks, guys.
I'm also trying out using 3rd finger to bar DGB strings for A major. It's so-so thus far but I'm sure it will come around.
That will put you on your way 2 making a barred B 2 frets up (and every other chord you get as you scoot it up the neck) with first finger getting the bass strings.
Agree. This feels ackward at first - which is a sure sign it is a significant change - but well worth a bit of effort each day until it becomes remarkably easy. I am currently working on getting comfortable doing the same activity moving the "c shape" up the neck. This seems to allow for some very lush and interesting chords that give new life to those same old progressions. It started for me while trying to reproduce Bruce Cockburn's "Mama Just Wants to Barrelhouse All Night Long" from the original Ottawa Folklore songbook. Just a really interesting way to play a familiar bluesy accompaniment. 

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 03:45:10 PM
When you're moving the C up the neck, how do you make it? Barring all the way accross with first finger and using M. R and P to make familier C shape or just getting the 4 middle strings like this?
1/---------- x-----------------------
Or some other combination?
                                               A good variation on this for bluesy stuff is to make a C7 chord in the first position like this:
e/------ 0----                               Then slide down one fret and remove 1st finger and play only the middle 4 strings to make a B7
B/-------1----1st finger                   Or slide up the fretboard  from the original position shown only now the index finger becomes your barre and you are playing 7th chords
G/-------3----4th finger                   with the root still on the 5th string.  Again, you only play the middle 4 strings.  I find this position relatively easy to finger.
D/-------2----2nd finger
A/-------3----3rd  finger               While playing the barred chords up the neck you can noodle around with your 4th finger to add some embellishments on top of the chord.
E/-------0----                                 Hope this makes sense.
People, I'm learning some real good tips from this thread.  Keep em coming.

  I gotcha on you're post that you snuck in while typing. and do same thing, strong pinky is good when other fingers tied up)
 and dang you. I love talking about chords amd will spend more time than I have talking about them. Hopefully others will chime in as my method came from "cheating gone wild"
I'll get to the "c" shape soon and If I don't fall out go on about the highly abusable "A: shape. But let me take a minute and preface by saying That I generally look at everything in terms of being 3 main chord shapes not 5. That isn't to say that the "G" shape and "C" shape aren't valid.  I just know E,A,D pretty much inside out and I see the "C" shape as a "D" And G shape as an "A".
 Both G and C just have notes added on top of A and D preimarily in the bass to make shape.
2/-------(0)---------------------------   In open G the notes inside ( ) contain the underlying "A" shape. The rest IN THE WAY I USE THEM, is gravy on top.

1/-------(0)----------------------------- In open C the notes in ( ) contain the D shape.
Don't take as definitive because a lot of people including GA-ME find good use in using full shapes. Like I said, this is cheating gone wild. I'll be anxious to hear of good uses for my discarded shapes.
especially ones that done break your hand! :)

Further More my 3 main shapes shapes E,A and D I see as the same shape just moved across the strings. Huh?  I'm going to copy and paste from previous post explaining this. It's a very important concept that a lot of people don't understand. It comes from this thread, which has has much, much more in it, starting with basic understanding of how chords are built which is needed for the rest to make sense.   I'll leave this as one post lest I lose it before saving and start working on the next one which will be getting back to original thought of "C" shape going up neck.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 03:51:49 PM

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 03:54:23 PM
OK, the way my mind is racing about tearing "C" shape apart I'm quite sure I won't get to "A" tonight.  Like I said in previous post, I mainly see "C" as D shape. One ironic exception is in what was posted about moving C7 down to B7. Hard to call B7 as being out of D shape when 2 of the primary notes dropped below nut. :smile:
Anyway. I'm going to focus on chopped down versions of shapes which allow for plenty of movement within chord and can be used easily all over neck which is kinda where this started.
Finger pickers who always need to have bass line moving may need to adjust to fulfill that very important role.  So first is seeing the D shape in a different way making it more related to C.

6/---------x---------------------------- We'll leave getting 2nd fret with thumb out, we're chopping down after all.
 Basic open D

Still basic D with 3rd replicated on 4th string. The C shape is starting to take form.

Chopped down D using strings 2-3-4 only. The note on 4th string replaced the 3rd previously gotten on first string and leaves I-III-V triad in place

To finish off turning into C shape add 5th string, 5th fret.


That's how I see "c" as coming out of D shape.  Now this shape or even more so previous triad only shape, can move around the neck very easily and can be made into other chords pretty easily.
For easy demonstration I'm just going to show triad. To make most of this it's pretty essential to understand a little chord contruction as shown is previous post's cut and paste or by going back to orginal referenced post. In quick review for D shape on strings 2-3-4 that we'll be talking about..1st must understand that chords are made of the 1-3-5 notes out of scale of which the chord is named. So if we were in open position here and in true D chord, it would reference D maj scale or notes D-F#-A. The III is on the 4th string, the V is on the 3rd string, and the I is on the second string. It's important to understand that so you can easily turn into another chord. It gives you a reference and you know whats going to happen to chord as you move each note.

Moving the I on second string. Whenever you know where the root of chord is you know a couple of things you can easily do. If you lower root one fret you are going to have a Maj 7th chord.
Lower it 2 frets and you have a dominant 7th chord. If able to lower it 3 frets you have a 6th chord. Raise it 2 fret and you'll have an "add 2" chord. (if 7th played as well it'd be called a 9th chord)
SO.....moving 2nd string note can produce these chords. The (x) notes are your options. I'm going to move shape up the neck to make easier. It's an E  chord now.

2/------(3)(4)---5---(7)----------------------- In moving notes up the neck you go from 7th to Maj 7 to Basic triad to "add 2"

Lots of usable action for blues and R&R on 3rd string. The 7th is more easily played here as well and is in the same place it would be in a C7 type shaped chord. Now remember that your reference is
fact that the V is on 3rd string string. If you raise th V 1 fret you get Augmented (5th) chord. 2 frets and it a 6th chord, 3 fret and it's a dominent 7th. For augmented you pretty much have to change fingering BUT you can do a bunch of blues and R&R stuff while keeping fingers in same place and just adding 6 and 7th frets with pinky.

3/-----------------4--(5)--(6)--(7)----------  Adding notes up neck here gives you Aug, 6th and 7th chords.

4th string  Moving the note on 4th string change chords to these. remember the III is your reference point from triad
4/-----(4)-(5)--6----(7)------------------------ Goiing up  with (x) notes you get Add2, minor and sus (sus means replace III with IV)

So that's just basics of easy way to find chords. If you're having hard time with theory, in the mean time (until you learn!) Just add notes to any chord and see what happens by feel.  By no means limited to using only strings 2-3-4 but to me that's the gut of your chord and gives a good starting point. And like I said the E and A are very similar. I'll stop at that as to not confuse but will explain a little more when I get to "A" shape. A is a beauty because if you smash it as a barre it gives tons of options including playing lead out of chord easily. Heck with checking for my usually spelling erros. It bedtime!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:02:21 PM
Flatlander, a very helpful way of explaining/understanding all these chords.  I regularly play them, put half the time don't know what they are called and never learned the basics of what notes in the scale change a major to a minor to a 7th etc.  I should definately learn those relationships as it would help a lot.  I'm going to check out your link tomorrow.

I still think learning to move some of the other chords up the neck is good to know, even if the resulting chord is really the same as a barred A, E, or D chord played on a different fret.  Presently, I only really play 1st position chords, barred A-Am-A7, or barred E-Em-E7 chords when I play rythym in our band.  I never really move the basic D chord up the neck but I want to learn to do that plus the C and C7 chords for more versatility and ability to add fills and embellishments with whatever free finger is available.

If you're in a full band it works well to use chopped down chords that are so versitile. It's not like you have to fill the whole range and all the things you can do with them really add to rythym. In fact you may be staying out of conflicts with rest of band by chopping down too.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: flatlander on December 28, 2011, 11:19:27 PM
...a lot of people including GA-ME find good use in using full shapes.

Matt, I rarely use a full barre chord as they tie up too many fingers. I usually rely on the thumb wrap to grab the bass notes and then grab the notes I need to outline the chord. I like to have fingers loose to grab melody notes and play my patterns over the chord. I do think it is a great idea to be ABLE to make the full barre shapes, and to change between them freely using the whole barre chord, because it teaches the fingers to obey. The movable D is probably the hardest to get used to for most folks followed by the movable G. However, as you said a strong pinkie is one of the most important things to devlop and being able to make the movable D and movable G full barres goes a long way to making that pinkie obey!

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:09:19 PM
Google the CAGED system and then have fun...
Not to poo poo CAGED by any means. But to GET STARTED on understanding how chords are made, I like to just keep it simple. If you start with just E A D it's easier because they are really the same shape chord just moved across the strings. The intervals are the same between the fretted notes and they all go V-I-III from bass to treble, on fretted notes. So if you learn one, you've learned all three. Then to boot, to me, D and C are really the same thing.  I consider C shape a fully extended D. And the lower bass notes of a D shape on strings 4 and 5, to be borrowed from the E shape below it. (this is all just how I see it and not saying that it would be best for anyone else, just a different perspective maybe)
Also the bottom line to anyone this confuses is that less is more to me. 3 shapes instead of 5 is where my thought process comes from. Cheating? perhaps but get to same place CHORD wise.
Look at the diagrahm below. I see all the notes between fret 2 and fret 5 (except 1st string 5th fret) to be one shape that includes D and C shape. I call it D because it wins 3-2 on # of notes from
"standard" shape. So Iv'e ditched one seperate chord shape. Now jump up to frets 12 and 15. There you can see the 2 notes out of the standard D shape. But what are they really? They are borrowed
from the stand alone E shape.
Now, whats my excuse for ditching the G shape? It's pretty much an "A" shape pieced together with lower portion of "E" shape.  And especially for my chord thoughts, doesn't help much especially since I primarily use the V-!-III  on adjacent strings as my reference, (the 3 fretted notes of open E, A and D chords.) It's great to borrow pices of a chord from the shape below or above and a good way to explore and find new ways to make chords. But my standard reference, starting point is just the 3 shapes.
 Now, I'm no CAGED system expert but know that lots of times it is used as a way to find scales for solo playing. That is a completely different thing and maybe very useful in filling in gaps that may be left by looking only at 3 shapes.  That's just how I see fret board. I'd love to hear if others have different ways of seeing it and showing me what I may be missing (as it relates to chords) from CAGED.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:10:43 PM
I did try out slidin' up the C shape to make D, E, etc., and it was definitely doable with some work. On the other hand, I couldn't slide G up (yet), which didn't surprise me, as it took me over 4 months this year for my G major to ring clear.
Hmmm. What else can I think of to ask...?
Please ask questions! That's how I learn and will help me get more out of it.  Did you used the chopped down version of C shape when moving up the neck? It's as easy as can be and if you understand how it made you can always add to either side of it if you need more. If the 3 notes are enough for what you're doing you can rock out with it. Also you can let the 1st string ring open when sliding below diagram up 2 frets to E chord and when taking shape up to 9th fret to make A chord. Other places too you can let it ring open where it want be a basic triad anymore but
the open E will fit in as a 6th or whatever other flavor it might be in a particular position.

As far as moving entire open G shape up neck..That's hard! I don't do it. I consider it an A shape and get what bass note I need, but playing both of those bass notes on 5th and 6th strings...
well call me lazy if you want. But I am seriously hoping Ga-Me will rebuke me and show advantages of that shape up neck so I won't be able to justify my laziness. Seriously! The open G shape however IS great and a highly abusable thing. But if I need it up the neck.....there's a thing called a capo.  :bgrin:

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:12:03 PM

OK Here's "A" shape,

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

First off this is most important thing. Realize that E-A and D are the same chord shape really just moved across the strings. The fact that the 2nd string,B, is tuned to a different interval that the rest of the strings just forces the note played on it to raise up one fret as you move chord across strings,  to make up for fact that it is tuned half step lower. On Mandolin intervals are the same, so you can keep chord shape the same, and and since all notes go up a 5th and stay relitive to each other, the chord goes up a 5th like from C to G. The B string on guitar is what distorts the shape as you move across strings.  If you understand above, then understand how chords are built, you can understand a whole mess of chords. If you want to review how chords are built, you can reference back to this thread and the 2nd post.

Ok A. first off just open A This time on the left I put what degree of scale the fretted note is for major triad. Then you can see why chord name changes, (IF YOU READ ABOVE REFERENCED POST!)
It's rather cluttered because of all the options but keep seeing the  main shape on 2nd fret strings 2-3-4. I tried to turn them red but didn't work for some reason.

V  1/------------- -(2)---(3)-(4)-(5)------------------------------------------(2) A6 (3) A7 (4) A Maj 7 (5) A but with a chimey root A note on top
III 2/ --(0)(1)------2----(3)---------------------------------------------------  (0) A add2  (1) Am (3) Asus
I   3/---(0)(1) -----2---------(4) (5)------------------------------------------- (0) A7 (1) A Maj7 (4) A add2
V  4/------------ ---2--------((4)-(5)------------------------------------------ (4) A6  (5) A7
    5/---(0)------ -(2)---(3)- (4)------------------------------------------
    6/---(0)------ -(2)---(3)---------------------------------------------
First off with out even having to understand chord contruction, just play with that incredible arsenal of notes you have readily available. You can catch the entire melody of a lot of songs while holding shape, IF MAKING "A" BY BARRING IT WITH 1ST FINGER. Or Improvised leads or plenty of bass lines on bottom 2 bass strings.  Obviously if using the notes below 2nd fret you'll have to make chord with individual fingers. I'm  just going to show some of the chord names assigned when certain notes change. Remember you can use this same formula when applied to fretted notes of Open E and Open D shape.
   Otherwise just know that all these notes are available and more, and play around with just adding them in with adding them in.
 The chords made by adding or changing certain notes are ones I may generally hold as a chord perhaps. But also you can fly around on them just playing lead. The notes on the bass strings,5&6
can be added as bass lines. When smash barring the A shape you can slide it up neck and still use a bunch of the notes shown is this open shape. Genereally speaking, the ones on fret 2 and above are easily reached when entire shape moved up neck.  To demononstrate put a little 3 chord rock and roll or blues song in your head. Start with the open A chord then slide entire shape up to 7th fret and 9th fret for your other 2 chords.
 Folks got to stop here. I wanted to show a lot more about using up the neck and ways to move up the neck in sequence but.. Tons of stuff to do this weekend. There is so much more. Start understanding how these chords are made, or even just play with adding all these notes that are available and you can broaden your expression. After a while it comes natural. Bye for now and Happy New Years. :nana_guitar and be safe! :cop:

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:14:42 PM
Can't stand it. Here's a way to tie the 3 A shapes together working you way up neck. You can use any portion of it or run all the way up (or down) the neck with it. The song could be holding an A chord thru entire sequence and this allows for movement even while staying on same chord. You can do the same type of thing starting with D shape or E shape. There are other ways to do it and you may want to add more 7ths or different thing but this gives you idea. Since this is out of A often the unfretted strings can ring open if you wish.
3/-----------2------------------  1st shape A

3/----------4-------------------- connecting chord

3/----------6-------------------- 2nd shape (out of E shaped chord scooted up to be A

3/-----------6------------------- connecting chord (A6)

4/-----------7------------------- connecting chord (A7)

3/-----------9------------------- connecting chord (that's all I'm gonna say, call it D if you want)

4/------------11------------------- 3rd shape I call it my D shape, as explained previously, scooted up to A    sounds cool with unfretted strings ringing open

3/-----------9------------------- sounds cool with unfretted strings ringing open

3/----------14-------------------- And all the way back to original shape an octave up.
Like I said, other ways to do it but with these chopped down chords, none of them are any harder than making a simple open D chord or something. And you can always add to the sides if you want.
Also Like I side. you can start by just going back and forth between 2 of the positions. Then 3 or 4. Use what pieces of it you want then once you get the idea, FIND MORE!  BYE

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 04:19:39 PM
I have sent a PM to Lynn requesting that he let me combine this with 3rds and beyond thread. Do a little cleaning up and then post IT as sticky. Would be a more logical order and hace the chord theory 101 at beginning so reast would make sense to those who don't know about intervals and chord theory. The thead would start with 3rds, expand out to triads then explain or show how to make you own, more full blown chords. Along with little tricks along the way.
The above has now been done. The two threads combined and cleaned up. I will be requesting Tuffy to make THIS thread the sticky. He has already relied that he should be able to do so.
Happy New Years! I had a great one sitting in with band last night and just playing Harp. Floating here and there with fills, and ambience then honkin when given the nod. Such a fun, free way to float around musically.  Here's to 2012!  :nanadance :nanadance :nanadance :nanadance :nanadance :nanadance :nana_guitar :nana_guitar :nana_guitar :nana_guitar

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on January 01, 2012, 10:54:58 PM
Lets put some of these notes and forms into practical use. Just go with 12 bar blues or boogie progression

4/---------2-------(4)------ while hanging on A just put (4) on and off.

4/---------2-------(4)-(5)(4) ----- while hanging on A walk 4th string from fret 2-4-5-4

5/---(0) (2) (3) (4)---- When getting ready to change to iV chord or D, walk up 5th string from frets 0-2-3-4 after getting to 4 you change chords to D-

6/----(0) (2)--------------- off and on when hangin on A. Same as example 1 but in bass.

6/----(0) (2)--(3) (2)------------- off and on when hangin on A. Same as example 2 but in bass.

on 5th fret
1/---------------------------------------------------------  This is a walk up leading into chord change to IV as shown on bass strings but usings whole shape.
3/----------6------6------6--------9------9--------------- The last chord is a D9 so you've made your change there to next chord.
4/----------7------7------7-------11-----10------------   Notice how easy to go from the A (2nd to last shape) to the D9 You can do the whole I IV  V there while barely moving fingers
5/-------------------------------------------9---------------- The last 2 shapes are your I and IV and simply scoot last shape up 2 frets for your V

Here's one like the previous example but in this case walking it down.  Notice the 2nd chord, A7 and how it's made. In this case it's much smoother as going down,  to make 7th like this. It is also and example of borrowing notes from the shape below it.  Also notice that the movement is coming by moving the root down. If you've done homework and know the starting point shape, you know that the root is on the 2nd string. Futher more you realize that when when you move root note down 2 frets, it's the 7th, 3 frets and it's the 6th. The the movement here is felt by going from
A to A7 to A6 back to A where the 2nd string is now the 5th. So notewise...... root-b7-6-5 is what you hear and you can find other places and ways to do that no matter what key you are in.
Going down............

4/------------11------------------- 3rd shape I call it my D shape, as explained previously, scooted up to A    

4/-----------11------------------- connecting chord (A7) Made differently than it was on way up because it smoother transition on way down.
5/------------------------------If doing correctly your fingers don't have to lift off of strings for next 2 chords, Fingers are staying on same strings.

3/-----------6------------------- connecting chord (A6)When fingering this my pinky is getting 2nd string with index finger already in place on 5th fret for next chord.

3/----------6-------------------- 2nd shape (out of E shaped chord scooted up to be A

1/----------(5)-------------------  (play this note if you want. if barring strings 2-3 like you should be, just a matter of laying finger on down over 1st string)
3/-----------5------------------This time we finish off again by going to the next chord (remember this is in contect of 12 bar blues or boogie)
4/-----------4-------------------by going to the D chord here.
5/-----------5------------------ Again, as on way up, this is D9.

The 9th shapes are pretty darn easy you can sound uptown and impress friends and family when they are really simple!  :bgrin:

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: dream deferred on November 12, 2013, 05:23:02 PM
I've been a member here for a while now but just found this - thanks, very informative!
DD :donut :donut :donut :nana_guitar

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on November 23, 2013, 09:00:56 PM
I wondered if anybody looked at this still! A lot of it is just short cuts and cheatin but knowing the intervals can be very helpful. Thx.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: broKen on November 23, 2013, 09:26:59 PM
I have looked at it but haven't taken the time to study it as much as I would like. Thanks for the effort.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on November 24, 2013, 02:45:08 PM
Let me try to give an overall sumatation of what this stuff is about since it popped back up and people who never noticed it will know and decide if they may want to look it over. I'll start with some practical reasons to look at these and why I started digging into it. It was the best thing I ever did with guitar and is the basis of a lot of the way I play now.  The short story is that I went from playing in a full band, rhythm, and was lucky enough to have good pickers want to play with me that would cover lead great. Then I moved and started playing in duets, with just a bass player or one other acoustic player. It was going to be up to me to play lead. It's hard to get a lot of full sound and energy in that situation with acoustic and plus if I'd go to single string lead the fullness would drop out. ONE thing this stuff does is give a good start on playing lead by playing multiple notes/strings at one time not only giving a fuller sound but  also can give flavor of say a mandolin OR grind a couple notes against each other (b7ths,b 3rds or 5ths) for blues, that are more expressive than single string for most. And you don't have to fly around neck.
  Another main thing it does is take you to finding lots of little chopped down chords. If you know where the 3rds are and understand BASIC chord construction (I show an easy way, I think to see that in chords) then you can take those 2 notes intervals and either know, or just peck around for another note to add and find new chords. Often these smaller chords leave fingers available to do hammer on. walk towards next chord etc.
 The info is NOT going to make you a jazz rhythm king, if it did that's what I'd be doing and trust me I don't have a grip on all that stuff. . It could get you started that way I suppose. But there's enough info here to really spice up, as I do, Country, blues, pop just your relatively basic stuff. Like I said, these ideas transformed my playing where people see me as a decent player now at which I would have used to have just laughed at them. The best thing I ever did.
 Also this is more directly applicable to flatpickers but finger pickers can use it as well for sure. It just doesn't have a whole lot in it about covering the bass/thumb notes. But you can find that on your own. (I do finger pick a little too)
 If I can find time today or tomorrow I'll record some samples of how much they spice things up.
 So if this sounds like something you are interest in, just take your time, and study this stuff a little each week. If you don't know it already it will really spick up your playing and give you better understand of neck.

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: Jberczel on July 03, 2014, 09:04:20 PM

what a treasure trove!  thanks for putting this together (i can't imagine how many hours)!

a lot of the stuff i studied in the past seemed to come together much easier after following your posts.

 by any chance, did you get around to recording any demos of the lessons?

Title: Re: basic theory/chord contruction/3rds and beyond
Post by: flatlander on July 07, 2014, 02:08:07 AM
Thanks, No I haven't done anymore with this. I got divorced not long after I wrote that stuff and dove back into gigging a lot. Plus learning new instruments, along with songs etc. Busy.. BUT
if you have any questions about it or ideas..PM me and I'll see if I can clarify. I encourage you to do that because it  might make me think about something and learn myself.
Again, this is not rocket science here. It's just basic chord theory and how to use it to spice up even simple tunes.  matt