Larrivee Guitar Forum

Main Forums => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: xeroid on November 26, 2010, 09:53:54 PM



Title: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 26, 2010, 09:53:54 PM
I am posting about a concern I have with a Brand New P-09 I bought, that I hope Larrivee will honour the warranty for.  

I am no different than you guys in the fact I think they make wonderful guitars, however, no one is perfect, and some guitars will come off the line less than perfect.  Unfortunately it just  happens this new P-09 is one of them.  

The problem is the saddle height, or better explained as the lack of saddle height protruding from the bridge.  This guitar is brand new, un-played, warranty card not sent in yet, action is high and it has not yet been set up.  In order for me to set the action where I would like it, I would lose almost all of the saddle.  In other words, there just isn't enough adjustment here now  or in the future to be able to set the action as one normally would expect.  

When I first called Larrivee right away, ( California ) without them even seeing the guitar I was told that Matthew Larrivee stated that on these guitars they were designed to be left with more on the bridge to have sanded off if desired depending on your setup.   In other words, Mathew's answer is to sand down the height of the ebony bridge so that the saddle would project from it.  I was not happy with that answer, as I find it to be inappropriate for a new guitar.  I was then issued a Return Authorization number and told to ship it to the Canadian facility.  So I did just that, at a cost of $70 out of my pocket.

The guitar arrived on Nov 8th and I called on the 22nd to find out what progress they where making on fixing this guitar.  I was fully expecting them to do a neck reset.  Here is what I was told .....

John Jr., Jean Larrivee’s son, has inspected your guitar and has found that everything on the guitar is to factory specs and is within our parameters.  

Needless to say I am not happy with the answer, and I would doubt any of you Larrivee enthusiasts  would be pleased either.

I have emailed them back to let them know I am not happy about this answer, and that I think it would be best that they honour the warranty.  I am suppose to hear back from them after this weekend so was hoping that you guys would weigh in ..... especially the guitar builders and professionals that come here to maybe explain the negative effects of a low low saddle or sanding down the bridge or low string bend over the saddle.

Another thing to note is that I own another Larrivee Parlour guitar which I could bottom out the strings along the frets for an extreme low action and still have saddle height without sanding the bridge.  The bridges on both are identical in height.

When you look at the picture of the NEW P-09 remember that this guitar has not been set up yet and the saddle needs to be lowered to get the proper action that I like and have on my other Larrivee Parlour.  

I feel it's a neck set problem ..... it's very close, but not right.  And I certainly don't think anyone should be sanding down a bridge on a new Larrivee.

Please weigh in as though this was your guitar, and you had just bought it brand new.  Do you agree there is a problem?  Do you agree Larrivee should honour the warranty?    

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 26, 2010, 10:14:38 PM
OK I'm willing to get yelled at and attacked,its not like it hasn't happen before.Without having iy in hand to check the neck angle I can't tell you if it needs a neck reset.If it is in fact found to be within factory spec's I would ask for a refund from the daeler as that is who you really bought it from.If I were the dealer I'd do whatever it took to keep you as a client,replace it or refund the money.In reality when I worked for a dealer I inspected ever guitar and would have returned it with that little saddle hieght.I've noticed that many manufacturer's are making taller bridsge's and have popped more then share of bridge's and sanded off the bottom so I could get saddle hieght.I know that everyone say's not to do this as it change's the tone but I've had no complaints.Maybe they should reconsider there position but thats not for me to deside.ALWAYS inspect before buying.ALWAYS have a least a 24 hour approval with NO restocking fee when buying mail order,if theres a fee don't do business with them.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: dermot on November 26, 2010, 10:19:34 PM
Not a pro, not a lutihier.. but i do have a question for you....

Do you know what is the height from the sitka top to the highest of the ebony bridge?

I ask this due to the piccie looking like that the bridge it's self is pretty thick, and maybe replacing it with a less thick bridge, or sanding the bottom of the one you have is an appropriate solution, and may result in a better sounding instrument... after all the bridge is the heaviest brace of all

Martin have three thickness of bridges, and they decide what to use on any given guitar after the neck is set, Larrivee may have a similar system, and yours is right on the borderline of "spec"

d/  



Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 26, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
OK I'm willing to get yelled at and attacked,its not like it hasn't happen before.Without having iy in hand to check the neck angle I can't tell you if it needs a neck reset.If it is in fact found to be within factory spec's I would ask for a refund from the daeler as that is who you really bought it from.If I were the dealer I'd do whatever it took to keep you as a client,replace it or refund the money.In reality when I worked for a dealer I inspected ever guitar and would have returned it with that little saddle hieght.I've noticed that many manufacturer's are making taller bridsge's and have popped more then share of bridge's and sanded off the bottom so I could get saddle hieght.I know that everyone say's not to do this as it change's the tone but I've had no complaints.Maybe they should reconsider there position but thats not for me to deside.ALWAYS inspect before buying.ALWAYS have a least a 24 hour approval with NO restocking fee when buying mail order,if theres a fee don't do business with them.


My first comment is ..... it's a Larrivee guitar with a Larrivee warranty.  

So what you are saying is, as a dealer you wouldn't have accepted the guitar and would have returned it to the manufacturer.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 26, 2010, 10:45:45 PM
Not a pro, not a lutihier.. but i do have a question for you....

Do you know what is the height from the sitka top to the highest of the ebony bridge?

I ask this due to the piccie looking like that the bridge it's self is pretty thick, and maybe replacing it with a less thick bridge, or sanding the bottom of the one you have is an appropriate solution, and may result in a better sounding instrument... after all the bridge is the heaviest brace of all

Martin have three thickness of bridges, and they decide what to use on any given guitar after the neck is set, Larrivee may have a similar system, and yours is right on the borderline of "spec"

d/  



To answer your question:  The height is identical to my other Larrivee Parlour guitar which has all kinds of saddle coming out of the bridge and therefore you are able to sand down the bottom of the saddle to achieve any action you require, without ever having to sand the bridge.  In other words, the bridge on this new guitar was not made out of spec. 


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Randy_R on November 26, 2010, 11:04:17 PM
I deleted the duplicate post in the Larrivee section of the forum.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: ronmac on November 27, 2010, 12:40:28 AM
I wouldn't be happy with that on a new instrument.

Have you contacted the dealer?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 27, 2010, 02:27:18 AM
Larrivee has said its not a warranty issue,in fact they state its to there factory spec's.

Yes I'm saying when I worked for a dealer EVERY guitar that came into that shop came across my bench.EVERY new guitar guitar was inspected by me.I once sent back 12 guitars that were bought as a special deal,EVERY guitar had an issue that was not acceptable to me or the owner when I showed him.A call was made to our rep and call tags issued for these guitars.Was Larrivee happy,I don't know nor did I care as I had to stand behind every guitar.Before we bought any used guitar it came across my bench to determen if it was all original,did it need work.I also sold Larrivee seconds that came in unmarked as seconds but since it was sold to us as such we sold it as a second at a deep discount which at the time I asked if I could sell them at a special price,advertise worldwide as a second and was told that that was fine by them.Not all dealers did this but I had to live with myself,plus I owned a second for a very long time.

So since its not being covered by warranty because they find no flaw in construction the problem now becomes between you and the dealer.Hopefully they will step up to the plate and swap you out or refund the money.Its what I'd do if I were a dealer.If they say that theres no problem because its up to factory spec's it will be up to you on what you do.Choice will be sell it for a loss or have the work done that is needed.Take it to a repable tech/luthier for there opinion.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 04:37:50 AM


So since its not being covered by warranty because they find no flaw in construction the problem now becomes between you and the dealer.Hopefully they will step up to the plate and swap you out or refund the money.Its what I'd do if I were a dealer.If they say that theres no problem because its up to factory spec's it will be up to you on what you do.Choice will be sell it for a loss or have the work done that is needed.Take it to a repable tech/luthier for there opinion.

I don't know why you keep thinking a dealer would be responsible for a guitar made by Larrivee and warrantied by Larrivee.  It is Larrivee who offers the warranty ... not the dealer.  

This definitely is a warranty issue, the neck on this particular guitar is marginally set.    YES it's easy for Larrivee to back out of their responsibility and just say it's within spec ...... but I think the evidence is clear.  PLEASE FOCUS on the details of the guitar problem at hand.  I don't want to, nor should I have to sand down a bridge on a NEW Larrivee.  That to me is unacceptable.

You first said you would return it if it was a guitar you received as a dealer, so I assume you find this guitar unacceptable as much as I do.  Is that correct?   You agree with me that this guitar is unacceptable and should be honoured by the Larrivee warranty?

LARRIVEE WARRANTY

Every Larrivée instrument is warranted to the original retail purchaser against defects in materials and workmanship, without time limit.  Remember, the best warranty is a careful owner. We take a lot of pride in building great guitars. If we build a problem into one, we want to take care of it.


SO FAR LARRIVEE HAS NOT TAKEN CARE OF THIS WARRANTY ISSUE .... AND EVERYONE HERE SHOULD BE CONCERNED.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Dotneck on November 27, 2010, 04:56:55 AM
I don't know why you keep thinking a dealer would be responsible for a guitar made by Larrivee and warrantied by Larrivee.  It is Larrivee who offers the warranty ... not the dealer. 

He's just saying that since Larrivee has already told you its within spec....and you're not happy with it...return it to the dealer. Let them fight the fight. 


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: tadol on November 27, 2010, 05:00:41 AM
From the Larrivee website -

Consult Your Dealer

All Larrivee authorized dealers are qualified to advise you regarding the details of processing a repair or return. Contact your dealer first, before proceeding with any other action, to obtain a Return Authorization number. It is important to note that all returns must be preceded by a Return Authorization (RA) number. Returns that do not have a valid RA number number prominently displayed on the carton will be rejected and returned freight-collect to the point of origin. Obtaining an RA number is the responsibility of the dealer. Larrivee will not accept repair or return claims direct from end-user customers except in the event the dealer who originally sold the guitar is no longer accessible to that end user. If this is the case please call our number listed in the customer service section


The warranty is offered to all retail purchasers when purchased from an authorized dealer. If you have a new guitar from a dealer that you are unhappy with, then I would suggest you return it to them immediately for a replacement.

If you have not purchased it new from an authorized dealer, then I guess you need to rely on the good will of the factory to repair an instrument that they are not obligated to repair. If you bought on the grey market, you save alot of money, but you give up the retail service/warranty - that's the trade off. Your anger/frustration is not the best way to get support or action from them. They are good people and will make sure it is a completely playable guitar. BUT - if your expectation is that they will completely rebuild the guitar to YOUR spec - Good luck with that -

It just leads me to wonder why you'd buy a guitar with this "obvious" a flaw and not immediately return it? I think there's more to this than has been disclosed -

I'm gonna sign out of this little tempest -  :wave


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 27, 2010, 05:11:55 AM
It is the dealers responsibility to deal with warranty issue's,period.Though right now its your problem.Approach the dealer calmly and see what they will do for you,they sold it too you not Larrivee.I fully understand your frustration its happened to others.I'm not trying to anger you at all.All I can do is suggest a different aproach to the problem in hope's that you can resolution.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 05:36:33 AM
Just so everyone is clear ..........

The guitar was purchased from an authorized dealer, the 12th fret in Toronto.   The return authorization was issued by Larrivee themselves.

I don't know why all the comments about who is responsible, the dealer or the manufacturer ..... as this takes away from the real issue.  The guitar itself and it's marginal neck set causing a major lack of saddle height is the issue.

I certainly don't expect Larrivee to rebuild the guitar to MY specs as someone suggested.  But what I do expect FROM LARRIVEE, not the dealer, is to honour the warranty LARRIVEE has in place and to resolve this issue quickly and appropriately.  Not to simply say you will need to sand down the bridge to obtain a normal string action setting.  This certainly isn't required with my other Larrivee Parlour as you can see in the picture and it is set up with a good string action, the New Parlour isn't set up and has a much higher action as is normal with a new guitar.  The problem is you can't set this new guitars string action without removing a substantial amount of wood off the ebony bridge.  

How many Larrivee fans would accept buying a NEW 9 series Larrivee that required the bridge to be sanded down to obtain a normal string action?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 06:06:18 AM


It just leads me to wonder why you'd buy a guitar with this "obvious" a flaw and not immediately return it? I think there's more to this than has been disclosed -

I'm gonna sign out of this little tempest -  :wave

To answer your question:  It was a four hour drive, one way to get to the nearest authorized dealer, and as you know, new guitars do not come professionally set up.  You may also appreciate the knowledge that Larrivee stands behind every guitar they make by way of a warranty, which should give you all the confidence you need to buy a NEW guitar from an authorized dealer without worry.   Do you not agree?  Are you saying don't trust Larrivee?  It is only when I got home that I had enough time to inspect the guitar in any great detail in preparation of having it professionally set up that I discovered the neck with this guitar is marginally set.  I have another Larrivee Parlour which does not have this problem at all and it's action is set low with all kinds of room left on the saddle and no need to sand the bridge.

It boils down to this .......

How many here would accept a NEW 9 Series Larrivee Guitar that you just purchased that requires the bridge to be sanded down and probably groves cut in front of each peg to obtain a decent string bend over the saddle just to obtain a normal set up and string height?  Does anyone here think this is NORMAL?

The argument is not about procedure or the dealer.

Please stay on topic, and stick with the problem at hand .... a guitar problem with pictures and explanations so you can understand what is wrong technically with this guitar and if you would expect Larrivee to stand behind their warranty with this particular issue.

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.


DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: jeremy3220 on November 27, 2010, 01:14:29 PM
How many here would accept a NEW 9 Series Larrivee Guitar that you just purchased that requires the bridge to be sanded down substantially, and probably groves cut in front of each peg to obtain a decent string bend over the saddle just to obtain a normal set up and string height?  Does anyone here think this is NORMAL?

I wouldn't buy any guitar with a poor neck angle because it's the first thing I check when considering a guitar. I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common. I'm not saying it's right but it's 'the nature of the beast' so to speak and if you think they are so obligated to do a neck reset instead of shave the bridge then you don't really understand what it is you bought.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 01:21:56 PM
I wouldn't buy any guitar with a poor neck angle because it's the first thing I check when considering a guitar. I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common. I'm not saying it's right but it's 'the nature of the beast' so to speak and if you think they are so obligated to do a neck reset instead of shave the bridge then you don't really understand what it is you bought.


The way you are talking, it sounds like you believe Larrivee is one of the worst manufacturers of guitars with next to no quality control.

It also sounds like you think  Larrivee will not stand behind the guitars they manufacture and that their warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on?  This is clearly a marginally set neck, and a manufacturers defect.  Just because they don't like re setting necks doesn't mean they are not obligated to do so.

DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: believer936 on November 27, 2010, 02:14:00 PM
I agree with tadol.  This issue shouldn't have gotten by the dealer's technician.  It looks obvious from the pictures that there would be a setup issue at some point.  I agree that sanding down the saddle shouldn't be needed on a new guitar.  I have owned seven Larrivees and still own two.  They have all been great guitars.  If one was to judge the Larrivee commitment to quality control by this site it speaks volumes to the positive.  That said, I've never had a pro set up one of my guitars.  The only issue I've ever noticed on my guitars is that the fret ends get obvious in the winter season.  I battle that with case humidifiers.  I would talk to the dealer.  You could take the guitar to someone nearer for an opinion.  I hope this ends up with all parties satisfied.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 02:23:41 PM
I agree with tadol.  This issue shouldn't have gotten by the dealer's technician.  It looks obvious from the pictures that there would be a setup issue at some point.  I agree that sanding down the saddle shouldn't be needed on a new guitar.  I have owned seven Larrivees and still own two.  They have all been great guitars.  If one was to judge the Larrivee commitment to quality control by this site it speaks volumes to the positive.  That said, I've never had a pro set up one of my guitars.  The only issue I've ever noticed on my guitars is that the fret ends get obvious in the winter season.  I battle that with case humidifiers.  I would talk to the dealer.  You could take the guitar to someone nearer for an opinion.  I hope this ends up with all parties satisfied.

I suppose the dealer could have rejected this guitar, but they didn't.  And the fact that Larrivee issued a return authorization number and now have the guitar really eliminates dealer involvement for now.

So you can clearly see an issue with setup now and or in the future.  You also don't believe that sanding down the saddle is an appropriate solution on a new Larrivee.  Then you and I have the same opinion on the current state of this guitar.  IT'S NOT RIGHT !



Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Peter Cree on November 27, 2010, 03:03:12 PM
The set -up on this guitar would likely concentrate on the nut slots and leave the saddle alone.   To say that sanding the bridge is any answer is ............crazy.    That's never a part of the set up process and it always indicates a poor neck angle.  Adding a thicker bridge is a cheap solution to an original bad neck set.

You should return the guitar since nothing is going to change this situation.   Nothing but a neck reset and a new bridge will change this situation and Larrivee doesn't want to do that.   Avoid the time and trouble and move on to a different guitar.

I have seen more quality control issues from Larri and other makers recently.   Bad neck angles and need of neck resets are becoming a common problem on new guitars, enough for me to check that aspect out FIRST on any guitar.

My new P-09 braz had more little problems than I've ever seen on a P-09 series guitar.  The neck had a back bow that threw all the geometry out of whack.   Some other person without the luthery skills I have would have had terrible problems.   I was able to iron them out but it was a wake up call that something at Larrivee CA isn't right.   Denying your problem means keep looking for one thats right.   

Send it back to 12th fret.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: dermot on November 27, 2010, 04:57:30 PM
Send it back to 12th fret.
I agree - make this 12 fret's problem..

But i would add -  only three people have had their hands on the guitar, Grant/12 Fret, John Larrivee & Xeroid... two of them know the geometry of guitars well, And two of them say the bridge is the answer... maybe try to get past the viewpoint that a neck set is the only answer, and try to listen to what they are saying?

I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

If it's fine, as they say it will be, then you win, if it's not, then you draw... and if a lighter bridge makes the guitar more responsive, then you get an extra big win

Good luck, and remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

d/



 


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 05:22:53 PM
I agree - make this 12 fret's problem..

But i would add -  only three people have had their hands on the guitar, Grant/12 Fret, John Larrivee & Xeroid... two of them know the geometry of guitars well, And two of them say the bridge is the answer... maybe try to get past the viewpoint that a neck set is the only answer, and try to listen to what they are saying?

I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

If it's fine, as they say it will be, then you win, if it's not, then you draw... and if a lighter bridge makes the guitar more responsive, then you get an extra big win

Good luck, and remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

d/



 

I'm not following you at all here.  Which two do you think have said the bridge is the answer?  Only Larrivee has said that the guitar is within their parameters.  And there is a logical reason why they would want to say this.  I will also let you know that I have been fully trained on the art of Luthery  and have taken a full course on the construction of acoustic guitars.

And I am also not sure what you mean by this:   I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

I just don't follow you ?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Danny on November 27, 2010, 05:42:01 PM
  Not good for anyone.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 05:44:28 PM
 Not good for anyone.

Could I politely ask you what is not good for anyone in your opinion?  What you meant by your statement?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Danny on November 27, 2010, 05:53:59 PM
  First not good for you as a consumer, not good for Larrivee as it gives them bad publicity when these things add up, not good for us Larrivee owners and this little forum.
                               Not good for anyone.

BTW My local Larrivee dealer has helped me out considerably with warranty issues and so has Matthew Larrivee. I do think asking the 12th Fret to take it back is your best shot at a solution now. Also I am sorry you have to go through this, I don't like finding out my "new" guitar is defective either.
     
                                  That's it for me though on this subject. :donut


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: dermot on November 27, 2010, 06:09:41 PM
And I am also not sure what you mean by this:   I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

Sorry for being a muddy... i would ask 12Fret for the right to refuse the guitar after the suggested fix of a replacement -or- shave of the bridge is complete, then (and only then) go ahead and authorise the work.. i see three possible outcomes;
1) the guitar still cannot be set up as you prefer, with the new/revised bridge - 12fret replaces with a new guitar.
2) the guitar is set up to your preferences, and the new/revised bridge is still within reasonable spec's, and it's sound and/or responce is not affected.
3) the guitar is set up to your preferences, and the new/revised bridge is still within reasonable spec's, and it's sound and/or responce is affected positively.

That's what i would ask 12 fret to undertake, if they truly believe that shaving or replacing the bridge will brig the geometry back in line, i would give them the chance to prove it, but i would NOT take the responsibility for the end result

I guess i have the thought that - the lighter a brace is, the better, as long as it does not compromise strength, and as you know the bridge is the biggest heaviest brace of all...

d/


PS - i am pretty sensitive to my preferred set-up myself... for most folks my guitars would be an endless buzzfest, i have a very light touch tho, seems that you may share this trait..


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: dermot on November 27, 2010, 06:26:23 PM
I'm not following you at all here.  Which two do you think have said the bridge is the answer?  


I did get my wires crossed, sorry...  this is from your first post, and where for some reason i thought you referenced John not Matthew, and i thought there was a note about 12Fret saying something similar... can't find that tho... again my apologies for getting stuff mixed up....

Quote
When I first called Larrivee right away, ( California ) without them even seeing the guitar I was told that Matthew Larrivee stated that on these guitars they were designed to be left with more on the bridge to have sanded off if desired depending on your setup.   In other words, Mathew's answer is to sand down the height of the ebony bridge so that the saddle would project from it.  I was not happy with that answer, as I find it to be inappropriate for a new guitar.

Really the last line in this quote is the key i think... you are not happy with what Matthew suggested, and i guess my thoughts are to give it a shot as long as you don't have to carry the risk of it not being to your satisfaction.

The piccie of the bridge on the new 09 seems to be pretty thick  when compared to my only Larrivee (an Om19 from 2000), but without mesurments.. who knows?

again, i wish you the best, i would not accept this guitar as is...

d/




Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 06:36:53 PM
Is removing an 1/8 of an inch off the bridge really that bad?  So what if we take an 1/8 of an inch off the bridge?  I would think this would give us a higher saddle height, and the ability to make adjustments down the road as the guitar settles, and more string bend over the saddle going to the pins.

But to be clear, the bridge on the new guitar was not made wrong, it is identical in all measurements to my other Larrivee Parlour, and my other Parlour does not have this problem.  It still has all kinds of room to sand the saddle down should that be required in the future.

I think Larrivee is insisting that this is within "their parameters" and that this guitar go back to the 12th Fret where they will likely have to sand the bridge down.

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK OF THIS?



Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Mr_LV19E on November 27, 2010, 07:44:28 PM
I think if you have been fully trained on the art of Luthery  you should have checked the guitar out before you made your four hour trip home, but you didn't. Once you got home and checked it out I think you should have returned it, either personally or by postage. You bought the guitar from the dealer not Larrivee and to keep it knowing there were problems was wrong. You should have worked out the return with the dealer ASAP, not kept it expecting warranty work to be done immediately after buying it.
There is no question that there are guitars out there with borderline neck sets and it appears you got one of these.  One thing I don't believe is that the neck angle on that Parlor will ever change in your lifetime, that guitar is heavily built and has a lower tension short scale.
Bottom line is you need to return it and move on, if you still want a P-09 there are plenty out there with lots of saddle showing.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks, this problem is between you and the 12th fret. I'm sure we are all glad that you pointed out this issue so others can be aware, but expecting others to agree with you serves no purpose and doesn't get you any closer to resolution.

Here are pics of the saddle heights on my guitars (all when new and set-up) they all have the same ultra low action. And yes some dealers don't set up guitars but some do, I believe others on this forum have bought guitars from the 12th fret and were given a free set-up.

OM-03MT  Colosi bone saddle
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/daddyo12453/IMG_0550_4_5_1.jpg)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/daddyo12453/IMG_0545_3_5_1.jpg)

LV-19E  Larrivee bone saddle
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/daddyo12453/IMG_0541_1_5_1.jpg)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/daddyo12453/IMG_0543_2_5_1.jpg)


LS-03IS/M  Jim Holler bone saddle
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa242/daddyo12453/LS-03HB/IMG_1403_1_1.jpg)


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 08:25:58 PM
I do find it interesting ( but not unusual from a group of Larrivee enthusiasts ) that so few want to point the finger at a Larrivee guitar that has come out to the California plant not as well as it should have.  I don't think I have done anything wrong at all.  I purchased a new Larrivee guitar and trusted that if there was a manufacturing defect, that it would and should be taken care of by Larrivee who promises a warranty if something like this does come off the line.  Immediately when I got home with this guitar and was able to spend the time for a closer inspection, I immediately contacted Larrivee for a return authorization number which was granted to me.  

So I gather from your comments that marginal neck sets do come out of the Larrivee factory and sold as if it where no different than another one that was set correctly.  WOW ..... what happened to quality control?

With all your guitars being already set up ( pictures included ) you have more saddle height on all of them than I would have on this particular guitar after it was set up.



Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: ST on November 27, 2010, 09:03:04 PM
Hi xeroid,

It feels as though you are very unhappy about your situation. I am sorry for that.

It feels like you want us to join you in making generalizations based on your situation; a situation that in my limited experience is clearly an exception.  But it I would no more expect you to accept that my experiences with Larrivée are more signifcant or indicative of the general case than yours.

You asked for opinions: Here is mine.

Your entreaties that readers join in you viewing your situation as a bellwether of the failure of quality control at Larrivée are not gaining traction here. I believe that this is because you are talking to  "a group of Larrivee enthusiasts" who recognize this as an exception, and who have a significant body of experience that bears out that the solution "return it to the dealer", falls within the clearly stated terms for handling exceptions of this nature.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: ronmac on November 27, 2010, 09:04:23 PM
Amen!


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Mr_LV19E on November 27, 2010, 09:08:30 PM
So I gather from your comments that marginal neck sets do come out of the Larrivee factory and sold as if it where no different than another one that was set correctly.  WOW ..... what happened to quality control?


The point is, this guitar just does not fit your needs. Someone else might want to raise the string height on this guitar and never have a problem with the neck angle. They can't build every guitar so the action can be lowered to a height that needs to be read with a feeler gauge. Many players out there want high action for many different reasons. Most players will look for a guitar that fits their playing style, thats why Larrivee (and other factories) have parameters(+or- X). Some may be set back a bit and others a little shallower to fit the needs of many.
Here's some good info from Frank Ford at Frets.com (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html).


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 09:21:37 PM
Hi xeroid,

It feels as though you are very unhappy about your situation. I am sorry for that.

It feels like you want us to join you in making generalizations based on your situation; a situation that in my limited experience is clearly an exception.  But it I would no more expect you to accept that my experiences with Larrivée are more signifcant or indicative of the general case than yours.

You asked for opinions: Here is mine.

Your entreaties that readers join in you viewing your situation as a bellwether of the failure of quality control at Larrivée are not gaining traction here. I believe that this is because your are talking to  "a group of Larrivee enthusiasts" who recognize this as an exception, and who have a significant body of experience that bears out that the solution "return it to the dealer", falls within the clearly stated terms for handling with exceptions of this nature.

It wasn't I who said that this kind of defect or lack of quality inspection is coming more and more often.  As a matter of fact one said it is somewhat more common today.  Read previous posts from others.  Here is one of them:  "I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common."

Yes, it looks like it may very well go to the dealer as I think that is where Larrivee wants to send it.  

So if we can stay focused on the problem with this guitar, which is the issue I am trying to discuss ( not procedure ) then what I am trying to find out is if you or anyone else considers this a serious enough issue to warrant a warranty repair.  In other words, would you accept having to have your bridge shaved or sanded down in order to compensate for a marginal neck set on a new Larrivee if you had just bought it?   Or would you insist that Larrivee honour the warranty that comes with the guitar?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
The point is, this guitar just does not fit your needs. Someone else might want to raise the string height on this guitar and never have a problem with the neck angle. They can't build every guitar so the action can be lowered to a height that needs to be read with a feeler gauge. Many players out there want high action for many different reasons. Most players will look for a guitar that fits their playing style, thats why Larrivee (and other factories) have parameters(+or- X). Some may be set back a bit and others a little shallower to fit the needs of many.
Here's some good info from Frank Ford at Frets.com (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html).

Let's remember that this is not the only Larrivee Parlour I own and I have no problem like this on the other one.  All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish without ever having to sand the bridge down, unless of course you have a neck set problem!   I know I can with my other parlour with no problem.

If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.  If the straight edge runs into the bridge then the angle is not set correctly.  You could sand down the bridge and compensate for this problem, but the real problem still remains that the neck is not set to the ideal angle.  


Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: ST on November 27, 2010, 09:54:57 PM
Hi xeroid,

Let's remember that this is not the only Larrivee Parlour I own and I have no problem like this on the other one.  All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish, even touching the frets and still have some saddle left.  I know I can with my other parlour with no problem.

If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.  If the straight edge runs into the bridge then the angle is not set correctly.  You could sand down the bridge and compensate for this problem, but the real problem still remains that the neck is not set to the ideal angle.  


Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.


"Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?"

To answer the question, "No. I would return it to the dealer".

And some unsolicited advice, repeating some of the wisest counsel I have ever received, "If you don't like the  answer, ask a better question".

And to  "ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO."  I think the lesson here is to make sure you understand the terms of the warranty and the dealer's return policy before making any significant purchase.



Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Mr_LV19E on November 27, 2010, 10:00:28 PM
 All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish, even touching the frets and still have some saddle left. If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.

If your first statement was true then the second one can't be. Yes the straight edge should lay on top of the bridge but if the strings are low enough to touch the frets you would not have any saddle left.  On my LV19E the straight edge has hit the bridge about a 16th" below the top ever since I got it but it doesn't present a problem and my action is low low.  


Quoting Frank Ford, on the  straight edge test


"This diagnostic method is very clear, but it doesn't account for the thickness of the bridge. If the bridge had been cut low in an effort to forestall neck angle work, then the straightedge might land right where it belongs on top of the bridge, but the neck angle may be less than ideal. I could measure the height of the bridge (not including the saddle) and hope that it's somewhere between 5/16" and 3/8," or I could use an even simpler method to check neck angle.


Here's a simple method for checking neck angle that doesn't depend on fret or fingerboard condition, or bridge height.

First, check to see that the neck is straight, then take note of the action at the twelfth fret. Presuming that the action is reasonable, say, between 3/32" and 4/32" between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the twelfth fret, then simply measure the string height in front of the bridge:

If there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top, then the neck angle is just about right:"

So what is this measurement on the guitar in question?

Also from Frank Ford,

"Often, it's advisable to be tolerant of a "shallow" neck angle. After all, there are lots of different styles of guitar, and even more different players and playing techniques. What's appropriate for a bluegrass backup guitarist may not be the right setup for a jazz picker's cutaway guitar.

All along, I've also been assuming that we're talking about otherwise healthy instruments in normal humidity. High humidity can cause the top to "arch" upward, often enough to give the appearance of neck angle problems. Low humidity can give opposite results.

There's really no substitute for the experience gained by working on and looking at thousands of guitars. A veteran guitar repairer can develop an intuitive "feel" which takes into account a wide variety of factors when diagnosing the neck angle of a guitar. Each manufacturer has a different set of specifications and builds to different tolerances; each has unique predictability of service and repairability. It's up to the luthier to stay current with the best methods of repair, which vary depending on the type, style, value, age, manufacturer and use of the guitar."




Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 27, 2010, 10:32:01 PM
If your first statement was true then the second one can't be. Yes the straight edge should lay on top of the bridge but if the strings are low enough to touch the frets you would not have any saddle left.  On my LV19E the straight edge has hit the bridge about a 16th" below the top ever since I got it but it doesn't present a problem and my action is low low.  


Quoting Frank Ford, on the  straight edge test


"This diagnostic method is very clear, but it doesn't account for the thickness of the bridge. If the bridge had been cut low in an effort to forestall neck angle work, then the straightedge might land right where it belongs on top of the bridge, but the neck angle may be less than ideal. I could measure the height of the bridge (not including the saddle) and hope that it's somewhere between 5/16" and 3/8," or I could use an even simpler method to check neck angle.


Here's a simple method for checking neck angle that doesn't depend on fret or fingerboard condition, or bridge height.

First, check to see that the neck is straight, then take note of the action at the twelfth fret. Presuming that the action is reasonable, say, between 3/32" and 4/32" between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the twelfth fret, then simply measure the string height in front of the bridge:

If there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top, then the neck angle is just about right:"

So what is this measurement on the guitar in question?

Also from Frank Ford,

"Often, it's advisable to be tolerant of a "shallow" neck angle. After all, there are lots of different styles of guitar, and even more different players and playing techniques. What's appropriate for a bluegrass backup guitarist may not be the right setup for a jazz picker's cutaway guitar.

All along, I've also been assuming that we're talking about otherwise healthy instruments in normal humidity. High humidity can cause the top to "arch" upward, often enough to give the appearance of neck angle problems. Low humidity can give opposite results.

There's really no substitute for the experience gained by working on and looking at thousands of guitars. A veteran guitar repairer can develop an intuitive "feel" which takes into account a wide variety of factors when diagnosing the neck angle of a guitar. Each manufacturer has a different set of specifications and builds to different tolerances; each has unique predictability of service and repairability. It's up to the luthier to stay current with the best methods of repair, which vary depending on the type, style, value, age, manufacturer and use of the guitar."

  




Yes you are correct, the string in this case would rest right on top of the bridge which would allow a full range of adjustment.  It may even be better if there was some slight saddle protruding from the bridge.

Yes I have gone over all the measurements and checks mentioned in the article, and everything is marginal.  Close, but not as it should be.  I can see sanding down the bridge to compensate because it is marginal but that is exactly what it would be ..... compensating for a less than ideal neck set.  

So how many would just accept this and go ahead and get the bridge sanded down to compensate as apposed to insisting that Larrivee honour the warranty and set things right?

So far, it appears that Larrivee has no intention of setting it right.  One earlier poster mentions it's common knowledge that Larrivee doesn't like doing neck resets.  If this is true, what does this say about the warranty offered by Larrivee?


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: jeremy3220 on November 28, 2010, 01:19:20 AM


The way you are talking, it sounds like you believe Larrivee is one of the worst manufacturers of guitars with next to no quality control.

It also sounds like you think  Larrivee will not stand behind the guitars they manufacture and that their warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on?  This is clearly a marginally set neck, and a manufacturers defect.  Just because they don't like re setting necks doesn't mean they are not obligated to do so.

DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?

Don't inflate my words. My post wasn't about what is right or wrong. I'm just telling you that probably every guitar company who makes guitars in an assembly line fashion puts out a percentage of product with less than ideal neck angles, subsequently they can't go back and reset all of them(certainly not dovetails) and stay in business. They will fix the minimum they can. I'm saying the big problem, which your situational forms a tiny part of, is not as black and white as you think it is. It's kind of like having brake work done on your car and freaking out when it takes longer than estimated... Maybe the auto shop is wrong but the reality is if you knew enough about brake jobs you wouldn't complain.

In Larrivee's opinion it is within spec so to them it isn't even a warranty issue. If you disagree return it. I would never buy something that is defective from the start and then demand the company do warranty work. If you don't like the product they put out don't keep it.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 01:36:08 AM
Don't inflate my words. My post wasn't about what is right or wrong. I'm just telling you that probably every guitar company who makes guitars in an assembly line fashion puts out a percentage of product with less than ideal neck angles, subsequently they can't go back and reset all of them(certainly not dovetails) and stay in business. They will fix the minimum they can. I'm saying the big problem, which your situational forms a tiny part of, is not as black and white as you think it is. It's kind of like having brake work done on your car and freaking out when it takes longer than estimated... Maybe the auto shop is wrong but the reality is if you knew enough about brake jobs you wouldn't complain.

In Larrivee's opinion it is within spec so to them it isn't even a warranty issue. If you disagree return it. I would never buy something that is defective from the start and then demand the company do warranty work. If you don't like the product they put out don't keep it.

It was not my intention to inflate your words, but rather to clarify the meaning of what you where saying.  And you have now done so.  

You know, if it was my manufacturing business I would want as low a percentage of miss aligned necks as possible coming off the line, well under 2% and then those would never leave the factory.  I think any percentage higher than that would mean I as the manufacture has a problem that needs to be resolved.

Your analogy with the breaks is not a good one.  We are talking about a finished product that should have been quality inspected before leaving the door.   We are not talking about how long something takes.  I do understand guitars ..... and I know as well as others here that the neck on this one has been set in borderline.  

The question is should Larrivee be held to honour their warranty when we all know that we could go into a Larrivee dealer tomorrow, pick up another P09 that would not have the same problem.  


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: jeremy3220 on November 28, 2010, 02:56:59 AM
The question is should Larrivee be held to honour their warranty when we all know that we could go into a Larrivee dealer tomorrow, pick up another P09 that would not have the same problem.  


Of course they should but you don't have a warranty issue because that is the type of product they sell.  I'm not sure how to say it any other way - you say the guitar is in a certain state and Larrivee claims this state is within their specs so it stands to reason that the guitar you bought is the type of guitar they intend to sell. This philosophical and ethical crusade is a waste of energy. If you don't want a guitar with a borderline neck set don't buy or keep a guitar from a company who sells guitars with borderline neck sets.

I had a customer just today who had exchanged a product at least half a dozen times prior to today. We finally decided to cut our loses and give him his money back. The guy then threw a fit saying we should just upgrade him to a better doohickie, what about all the gas it took to drive back and forth, he needs this doohickie and we have to honor the warranty. So a manager gave in and let him exchange it one more time. In the near future some idiot will come in upset because his doohickie quit working again.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 03:21:47 AM

Of course they should but you don't have a warranty issue because that is the type of product they sell.  I'm not sure how to say it any other way - you say the guitar is in a certain state and Larrivee claims this state is within their specs so it stands to reason that the guitar you bought is the type of guitar they intend to sell. This philosophical and ethical crusade is a waste of energy. If you don't want a guitar with a borderline neck set don't buy or keep a guitar from a company who sells guitars with borderline neck sets.

I had a customer just today who had exchanged a product at least half a dozen times prior to today. We finally decided to cut our loses and give him his money back. The guy then threw a fit saying we should just upgrade him to a better doohickie, what about all the gas it took to drive back and forth, he needs this doohickie and we have to honor the warranty. So a manager gave in and let him exchange it one more time. In the near future some idiot will come in upset because his doohickie quit working again.

I certainly understand your logic.   I am afraid that if this problem is not rectified as I feel it should be under warranty, and it is the opinion of Larrivee that marginally set necks are not a problem they want to address,  then indeed I will have to conclude as you mention that this is the quality of product Larrivee intends to sell to the public and I will also conclude that their warranty is worthless.  As a business man myself, and even in tough economic times, this would not be the direction I would want to take my company in.  It's short sited.  Sure Larrivee may save on not doing the right thing with this one .... but it will cost them many more sales down the road.  I still hold Larrivee as the one who should be responsible and not the dealer.  I would certainly return to the same dealer, but not to buy another Larrivee product if in fact Larrivee does nothing or says that sanding the bridge is the fix.  Remember, this is not a problem on my other Larrivee parlour.  Nor would I recommend anyone else buy a Larrivee.  NOW ........ There is still a chance that Larrivee may indeed see this neck is set borderline or the dealer may.  And then again, they may not.  I know it can be fixed by sanding away some of the bridge ..... but it's not necessary on my other parlour and I am sure not necessary on many other parlours in the stores across the country.   I mean, come on, there has to be a few of you guys that might own a parlour guitar.  Have any of you had to sand the bridge down to achieve a normal action?   So it all comes back to the same thing .... should Larrivee be responsibility and honour the warranty?

 


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 28, 2010, 04:07:23 AM
Larriveee has said that the guitar is in spec.They feel there is no reason to reset the neck.Would I want to force the issue"NO" its not worth it to me and I'm a major a**h*le and proud of it.So now what do I do,"I" return it for a refund and move on.I see all sorts of brands of guitar,new and used and have told clients that there new/used guitar has issue's and if it where me I'd return it to the "store" they bought it from.I don't think I can say more clearly.Also no 2 guitars no matter what the spec's come off the line the same.Here's something too scare you in the last 20 years of doing repairs I have yet to have a guitar come across my bench that didn't need fret work.this include cheap junk and more then a few custom builds in the thousands.Also you would never have to remove an 1/8 of an inch from any bridge bottom.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 04:31:54 AM
Larriveee has said that the guitar is in spec.They feel there is no reason to reset the neck.Would I want to force the issue"NO" its not worth it to me and I'm a major a**h*le and proud of it.So now what do I do,"I" return it for a refund and move on.I see all sorts of brands of guitar,new and used and have told clients that there new/used guitar has issue's and if it where me I'd return it to the "store" they bought it from.I don't think I can say more clearly.Also no 2 guitars no matter what the spec's come off the line the same.Here's something too scare you in the last 20 years of doing repairs I have yet to have a guitar come across my bench that didn't need fret work.this include cheap junk and more then a few custom builds in the thousands.Also you would never have to remove an 1/8 of an inch from any bridge bottom.

Now lets be reasonable.  Larrivee could say it's within their parameters, or anything else they want to say,  but that only tells us that they think it is normal  to have bridges on their new guitars sanded down to obtain a reasonable action, while I do not as I am sure others will agree.  And I am sure as well as I think you are, that not many Larrivee guitars that go out of the factory would need any sanding down of the bridge ever.  As a matter of fact I have another Larrivees that will never need the bridge sanded down and can set any action up I want.  So what does this tell you?  It just tells me that this guitar is not the same as the rest of them .... that this one is borderline or marginal.   And to me when buying a NEW Larrivee is unacceptable.

What if they take off 1/16 to 1/8" right off the top of this bridge?  Would that be a bad idea?  Wouldn't that give us more showing of the saddle and allow more adjustment today and into the future and also give more string bend over the saddle?   Is this really going to give any negative effects?  And wouldn't you think this would certainly be covered under the warranty?  I don't think anyone would think that sanding down a bridge would be considered a NORMAL part of a set up on a new guitar.

You say to simply return it to the dealer and get one that is not marginal .... do you think the dealer wants this one back on the shelf?  That they will simply agree to exchange it?  
 


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 28, 2010, 05:22:12 AM
No one's being unreasonable.You feel that they should reset the neck and they have basically said no.Next step is bring it back,explain that you've been in touch with Larrivee and your not happy with there responce and you wish to return it as you are unhappy with.A reasonable dealer will take it back and either replace it with anothe or even just refund your money.This doesn't seem to be your goal.You want us to say that Larrivee should just fix it under warranty as that produced a bad product,this isn't going to happen.They say shave the bridge.If the bridge is shaved its shaved from the bottom not the top.I have shaved many a bridge bottom for those that don't want to pay for a neck reset,in my book its a viable option,many don't,too each his own.In the long run you bought the guitar from a dealer and too the dealer you should go to get resolution.We do not own Larrivee on this forum were just fan's for the most part.We do not dictact there policies.Many have posted things that there not happy with and wanted what you want and didn't get it.Some still hang here some don't.I don't understand why your beating us up and yourself for that matter.The solution is now in your hand and the dealers hands as again you bought it from them not Larrivee.Call,email showup at the store and I am sorry its 4 hours away but thats out of all of ours control.Which has been stated in almost all the post.Hey maybe you should show up at the factory and demand that they honour there warranty no matter the fact that they see no problem.If it helps I had a client that spent $8K on a custom build that had the worst setup and abunch of other things wrong with it.He sent it back the builder told him that that was the way he built his guitars and it was perfect and he should learn how to play.When he asked for a refund he was told "That ain't gonna happen" hung up the phone on him.$250 latter he got the guitar he thought he paid for.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 05:32:30 AM
No one's being unreasonable.You feel that they should reset the neck and they have basically said no.Next step is bring it back,explain that you've been in touch with Larrivee and your not happy with there responce and you wish to return it as you are unhappy with.A reasonable dealer will take it back and either replace it with anothe or even just refund your money.This doesn't seem to be your goal.You want us to say that Larrivee should just fix it under warranty as that produced a bad product,this isn't going to happen.They say shave the bridge.If the bridge is shaved its shaved from the bottom not the top.I have shaved many a bridge bottom for those that don't want to pay for a neck reset,in my book its a viable option,many don't,too each his own.In the long run you bought the guitar from a dealer and too the dealer you should go to get resolution.We do not own Larrivee on this forum were just fan's for the most part.We do not dictact there policies.Many have posted things that there not happy with and wanted what you want and didn't get it.Some still hang here some don't.I don't understand why your beating us up and yourself for that matter.The solution is now in your hand and the dealers hands as again you bought it from them not Larrivee.Call,email showup at the store and I am sorry its 4 hours away but thats out of all of ours control.Which has been stated in almost all the post.Hey maybe you should show up at the factory and demand that they honour there warranty no matter the fact that they see no problem.If it helps I had a client that spent $8K on a custom build that had the worst setup and abunch of other things wrong with it.He sent it back the builder told him that that was the way he built his guitars and it was perfect and he should learn how to play.When he asked for a refund he was told "That ain't gonna happen" hung up the phone on him.$250 latter he got the guitar he thought he paid for.

If I may .... could I ask you why it's the bottom of the bridge you say to sand and not the top.  I think Larrivee suggested the top.  And when you look at the picture, it is at it's thickest along the saddle and bridge pins and it's thinest at the outer edges.  So removing wood from the bottom would make the outer edges even more thin, not to mention you would have to remove and then re glue the bridge.  It just seems a lot easier to take it off the top.  But I am sure you have a reason.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: JOYCEfromNS on November 28, 2010, 05:36:27 AM


You say to simply return it to the dealer and get one that is not marginal .... do you think the dealer wants this one back on the shelf?  That they will simply agree to exchange it?  
 

Yes I do!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 05:38:23 AM
Yes I do!!!!!!!!!

I'll let you know if it works  :bgrin:


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: jeremy3220 on November 28, 2010, 03:15:08 PM
If I may .... could I ask you why it's the bottom of the bridge you say to sand and not the top.  I think Larrivee suggested the top.  And when you look at the picture, it is at it's thickest along the saddle and bridge pins and it's thinest at the outer edges.  So removing wood from the bottom would make the outer edges even more thin, not to mention you would have to remove and then re glue the bridge.  It just seems a lot easier to take it off the top.  But I am sure you have a reason.

Removing material from the bottom can be done in a standardized fashion, from the top will be free hand. Removing from the top will lower the depth of the saddle slot and mess up the bridge pin hole chamfers.


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: xeroid on November 28, 2010, 03:20:56 PM
Removing material from the bottom can be done in a standardized fashion, from the top will be free hand. Removing from the top will lower the depth of the saddle slot and mess up the bridge pin hole chamfers.

I see your logic, but wouldn't it be an easier job and a more clean / neat job to increase the depth of the saddle slot and and clean up the bridge pin holes instead of removing the bridge off the sound board and having to re glue it back on.  Just a thought  :arrow


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: SMan on November 28, 2010, 03:35:14 PM
I see your logic, but wouldn't it be an easier job and a more clean / neat job to increase the depth of the saddle slot and and clean up the bridge pin holes instead of removing the bridge off the sound board and having to re glue it back on.  Just a thought  :arrow

A good repair person can remove the bridge reduce its height not affecting the bridge pin holes, contours or any shaping the bridge may have, and reglue.  To me this would provide the best result.  (And easier IMHO)

That said, if I had a brand new guitar that had an issue like you describe I would return it to the dealer.  I don't buy many new guitars but the ones I have purchased came from dealers with good return policies regardless of what the manufacturer is willing (or not) to do.   


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: jeremy3220 on November 28, 2010, 03:40:42 PM
I see your logic, but wouldn't it be an easier job and a more clean / neat job to increase the depth of the saddle slot and and clean up the bridge pin holes instead of removing the bridge off the sound board and having to re glue it back on.  Just a thought  :arrow

No


Title: Re: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially
Post by: Barefoot Rob on November 28, 2010, 05:39:34 PM
Back in the late 70's early 80's we took it off the top.Now for reason's stated we take it from the bottom.Please take it back,call or email first.