Larrivee Guitar Forum

Main Forums => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: rpm60912 on February 19, 2009, 07:09:40 AM



Title: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on February 19, 2009, 07:09:40 AM
Will it hurt our Larrivees if we install a strap pin like all Taylors on the treble side of the heel of the neck?   

(Is there some dowels or nut inside the dovetail joint that might get damaged by the strap pin?)

Or is it much better to just tie a string on the headstock side by the nut attached to the strap?

Any suggestions?

ricky



Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Mr_LV19E on February 19, 2009, 07:21:52 AM
Will it hurt our Larrivees if we install a strap pin like all Taylors on the treble side of the heel of the neck?   

(Is there some dowels or nut inside the dovetail joint that might get damaged by the strap pin?)

Or is it much better to just tie a string on the headstock side by the nut attached to the strap?

Any suggestions?

ricky



It won't hurt to put in a button, Larrivee's web site tells you exactly where to put it.

But I'd just tie the string to the headstock.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: lyric_girl on February 19, 2009, 03:43:26 PM
I had one installed on Holly, wasn't a problem. Ricky, just don't take it to L&M!


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: striper on February 19, 2009, 03:48:53 PM
I had one installed on my L-5 ..No problems and it puts the guitar in much better playing position than going around the headstock...I agonized about putting a "hole" in my perfect instrument for weeks but it was all worthwhile...


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on February 19, 2009, 03:52:26 PM
It won't hurt to put in a button, Larrivee's web site tells you exactly where to put it.

But I'd just tie the string to the headstock.
+1
I just failed to bid on a guitar because someone had installed a strap button. Probably won't hurt the value or the guitar, but reduces the number of people willing to buy it, in the event you decide some day to sell. Personally, if I use a strap I find it more comfortable tied to the headstock. but that's just me.
I try to keep my stock guitars "stock", not modified.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 19, 2009, 04:04:28 PM
I debated this issue with myself for quite a while before installing a button on my 000-50MT.   I really didn't want to drill into that beautiful guitar but attempts to tie a strap around the headstock were frustrtaing me.   Every spot I tried to tie the strap to seemed to interfere with my hand movements or ran across an open-gear tuner.   I finally just put in a strap button on the treble side of the heel  and never gave it another thought.  I used a black button so it is not very visible and I noticed that, for me, the guitar is a lot more balanced when the strap is in this location.   I'm not concerned with any loss of value if I ever decide to sell it.  I can't even conceive ot a situation where I would want to.

Tuffythepug


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: lyric_girl on February 19, 2009, 05:05:51 PM
II'm not concerned with any loss of value if I ever decide to sell it.  I can't even conceive ot a situation where I would want to.

Tuffythepug

This is how I feel about Holly, the guitar. I never thought about how it would devalue it and don't think that it really should. I will be having one installed on my Forum III.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: canoe65 on February 19, 2009, 07:46:20 PM
It won't hurt to put in a button, Larrivée's web site tells you exactly where to put it.

But I'd just tie the string to the headstock.
[/quote]

I agree.  I find it more comfortable to just tie off my strap beyond the nut at the headstock ... actually I have a Planet Waves 'quick release' acoustic guitar strap attachment ... which makes removing the strap easier ... for lazy players like myself.    :whistling:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GA-ME on February 19, 2009, 08:23:59 PM
If y'all getting the Forum III are not used to 12 fret neck joints you might want to wait for the strap-pin instalation. There is a definate difference in how your body relates to a 12 fret in comparison to the 14 fret. The neck is shorter at the same scale and you may find your whole fretting hand up and wrapped around the heel when you follow melody lines up the neck. If you are just cowboy chording, it might not matter, but I'd still wait because even cowboy chording starts to get tight as you capo. Just a suggestion if your not used to the wonder, joys, and LIMITATIONS of a 12 fretter


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: hadden on February 19, 2009, 08:54:10 PM
Button on the treble side is right in my way. Seeing that has stopped me from bidding or making offers on guitars before.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on February 19, 2009, 09:01:22 PM
actually I have a Planet Waves 'quick release' acoustic guitar strap attachment ... which makes removing the strap easier ... for lazy players like myself.    :whistling:
me too. I have a couple of them. they're pretty slick.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on February 20, 2009, 05:50:21 AM
Guys and fellow Forumites & family,

Sorry I have not been able to chime in - just barely skimmed through the responses.  I'll read them when I have slowed down in a day or two.

Extremely busy at work; a roller coaster ride of emotions as I dealt with 2 serious health issues in my community

and a close family friend passed on last Wednesday morning ---- so I'm on my way for a 12-hour road trip to Vancouver and spending the weekend there.

Driving through the night (11pm Mountain Time),

ricky


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Dotneck on February 20, 2009, 01:16:13 PM
I put them in...no problem. I've got one on my ForOm and I'll put one on my F3.  I like to have a strap even if I'm sitting on the couch. I hate the balance when the strap is tied to the headstock...


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Dotneck on February 20, 2009, 01:20:47 PM
This is how I feel about Holly, the guitar. I never thought about how it would devalue it and don't think that it really should. I will be having one installed on my Forum III.

I also don't believe it will devalue the guitar at all. Looks like there are some people who would pass on it if it were for sale but who cares? There are lots of potential buyers out there if you want to sell it...and I wouldn't let eliminating one potential buyer from the market (sometime in the future) prevent me from enjoying my guitar now.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: lyric_girl on February 20, 2009, 02:05:27 PM
I also don't believe it will devalue the guitar at all. Looks like there are some people who would pass on it if it were for sale but who cares? There are lots of potential buyers out there if you want to sell it...and I wouldn't let eliminating one potential buyer from the market (sometime in the future) prevent me from enjoying my guitar now.

Very well said


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 20, 2009, 02:50:05 PM
I put one in my D05 but not my triple 0. I play my D05 a lot while standing and there's just no way a strap attached to the headstock allows full freedom with the left hand. IMO anyway.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 20, 2009, 03:35:27 PM
Button on the treble side is right in my way. Seeing that has stopped me from bidding or making offers on guitars before.


They are removable you know... :bgrin:  Are you saying that you'd pass up a great deal on a wonderful guitar because of a button that could be removed in 10 seconds ?


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 20, 2009, 03:50:57 PM
Not only are they removable, for about 30 bucks, a good luthier can make the fill the old hole with ebony, make it look like a knot in the wood, and match the neck's finish so it looks like it's been there forever. I doubt you would lose a serious buyer over it.  That's what I do when I buy a guitar with a strap button.  They tend to just get in the way for me and I have no use for them.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/jpiazza67/Mabel/mabelnewknot.jpg)



Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on February 20, 2009, 03:53:02 PM
Not only are they removable, for about 30 bucks, a good luthier can make the fill the old hole with ebony, make it look like a knot in the wood, and match the neck's finish so it looks like it's been there forever. I doubt you would lose a serious buyer over it.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/jpiazza67/Mabel/mabelnewknot.jpg)
and if you filled it with mahogany sawdust & glue it would just about disappear altogether.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ffinke on February 20, 2009, 05:16:38 PM
I've seen responses to this same question on other forums and there has always been something that popped out that I haven't seen addressed here. Some luthier/techs recommend NEVER tieing to the headstock as this puts unreasonable strain on the neck. Jim Holler may be able to give something definitive on this.

 :coffee


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 20, 2009, 05:23:09 PM
I'm no luthier but I call BS on that one.  If it was true, the manufacturers would warn you or there would be a part of that warranty that says using a strap at the headstock will void your warranty.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Randy_R on February 20, 2009, 05:25:25 PM
Larrivee in the past has recommended tying to the headstock, but given instructions on how to safely put one into the heel of the neck, as in previous posts..


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 20, 2009, 05:25:52 PM
I agree. It's not hard on the guitar, merely harder to play the guitar.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: hadden on February 20, 2009, 05:28:46 PM

They are removable you know... :bgrin:  Are you saying that you'd pass up a great deal on a wonderful guitar because of a button that could be removed in 10 seconds ?

Don't want no hole in my git. Though those repair pics do look pretty good, so I guess it's not an issue.

When I played this morning I made a point of checking how my hand holds on up high there, and yes, the button would definately be in the way. I don't see it generally as a problem for someone's resale prospects however.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 20, 2009, 05:35:36 PM
Don't want no hole in my git.

I understand your viewpoint.   In fact I do prefer tieing to the headstock with the planet waves quick release for most of my acoustics.   I just couldn't come up with a satisfactory way to do it with the slotted headstock on my 000-50.  Not enough room under the strings behind the nut and anywhere else interfered with the tuners.   The tuning pegs going straight back like they do presented a problem witht the string getting caught on them or rubbing against the peg.   I got tired of fighting that and put on the button.   I haven't found the strap button to be a hindrance to my playing but I can see how it would be a problem for someone else.  To each his own.   :cheers


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on February 20, 2009, 05:43:13 PM

They are removable you know... :bgrin:  Are you saying that you'd pass up a great deal on a wonderful guitar because of a button that could be removed in 10 seconds ?
yes, I actually did pass on a guitar with a strap button. it was through an ivoroid heel plate. Not just a matter of wood filler.
Like I said, I don't think it hurts the guitar and I don't think it directly hurts the value.  but it turns out that there are a few "quirky" buyers out there like myself who want their guitars to remain "stock" and not modified in any way.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: teh on February 20, 2009, 10:32:37 PM
I have a Planet Waves strap that fastens around the neck and a couple of leather straps with strap buttons on the heel for two of my guitars. I have a D-35 and after 31 years, I am having Jim Holler put a strap button on tomorrow afternoon. I don't think it devalues the guitar but nothing I have is for sale and will be left to my kids after I am gone anyway so it's a moot point.

On the flipside, my parlor did not have an end pin or a strap button and I am not drilling any holes into it.




Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 20, 2009, 11:09:44 PM
I have a Planet Waves strap that fastens around the neck and a couple of leather straps with strap buttons on the heel for two of my guitars. I have a D-35 and after 31 years, I am having Jim Holler put a strap button on tomorrow afternoon. I don't think it devalues the guitar but nothing I have is for sale and will be left to my kids after I am gone anyway so it's a moot point.

On the flipside, my parlor did not have an end pin or a strap button and I am not drilling any holes into it.




It that standard for a parlor to have no end pin ?  I thought all models came with an end pin and were pre-drilled with a 1/2" hole for an end pin jack.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GeeNorm on February 21, 2009, 12:36:58 AM
My new, old stock, LV-10 arrived with no end pin.

Sort of a bummer since I have an LR Baggs iMix No-cut I want to install. I'm too much of a coward to drill the 1/2" hole, so I'm waiting until it is convenient to get it into a good shop for the install and a general setup check.

Norman


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on February 26, 2009, 05:58:46 AM
My new, old stock, LV-10 arrived with no end pin.

Sort of a bummer since I have an LR Baggs iMix No-cut I want to install. I'm too much of a coward to drill the 1/2" hole, so I'm waiting until it is convenient to get it into a good shop for the install and a general setup check.

Norman

I picked up my OM-40 from a local shop today with a newly installed K&K pwm.  I'm very impressed and no batteries!!!  Only thing is, I have to figure out a way to control the volume.   My guess is, I would need a K&K external preamp?

As for the original post and question of mine in this thread -

I decided to forego the strap pin on the heel of the neck - it's still clean and bought me a Diddario Quick Release strap to go on the headstock.

I tried playing the git with it and it does not seem to bother me.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 12:19:11 PM
Has anyone else found it difficult to play certain chords or measures, standing, using the strap attached to headstock method? I found that there were just things I could not play because I couldn't get a proper grip. With the guitar snugged to my body by a strap secured to the heel and end pin, I have no such troubles.     


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 26, 2009, 12:25:47 PM
Ricky, it doesn't have to be a K&K, LR Baggs Gigmaster is a nice little preamp...smaller than the K&K.

Duck, I've always been more comfortable playing when I'm sitting, no matter where the strap's attached standing.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GA-ME on February 26, 2009, 12:43:55 PM
I find it difficult to play ANYTHING standing up! I'm clumsy and only have one leg that works correctly. This creates a combination where there is sure guitar injury if I try to play standing up!


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 01:40:56 PM
Having started out in rock'n'roll bands, it always seemed proper to play standing. When I pay to see someone play, I'm actually a tad put-off if they sit through the entire show. I play standing even when no one's around.  :nana_guitar 


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GA-ME on February 26, 2009, 01:50:05 PM
Duck, I actually worry about peolple thinking I'm just phoning it in when we play out, because we all sit down except the harp player. Unfortunately, for me, I play much more accurately when I'm sitting and my injuries prevent me from standing with any semblence of balance!


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 02:11:34 PM
Duck, I actually worry about peolple thinking I'm just phoning it in when we play out, because we all sit down except the harp player. Unfortunately, for me, I play much more accurately when I'm sitting and my injuries prevent me from standing with any semblence of balance!

It's hard to guage or control what people think. I think I'd actually tell people that I'd like to stand if I could but I can't, maybe play a couple easy crowd pleasers while standing and ... get that other guy on his feet! ;)


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: roguegnome on February 26, 2009, 02:28:29 PM
Funny, I never thought of Leo Kottke, Pat Donohue, Adrian Legg, Kelly Joe Phelps, Jorma, Pierre Bensusan or Andre Segovia as just phoning it in because they sat down to play.
OK for piano players?


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 02:33:31 PM
And thousands, nay millions of people might say, "Who?" Maybe they should try standing.  :laughin:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 26, 2009, 03:33:15 PM
If a guitar player is doing what feels right and natural to play, I don't see why someone would be put off by that.   What puts my off is at when I see a show and .... well...it looks like all show .... musicans that look phony and not really connected to the performance or letting their instruments express their emotion.  I would rather wee John Lee Hooker (God Bless) than Kenny Wayne Sheppard, you know what I mean?  BTW, I like KWS on CD but I've seen his show twice and was dissapointed.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 26, 2009, 03:55:20 PM
Ducktrapper, yes I do find that a strap tied to the headstock gets in my way sometimes.  I haven't figured out a way to resolve this except to use a strap button on the heel.

I like to play in a standing position when I can.   A chronic back condition makes it very painful to stand for more than 30 minutes so I usually end up sitting down to play.

This discussion reminds me of a concert I attended many years ago.   I managed to get front row seats in an amphitheater setting to see Little Feat.  I was a big fan and I was really pumped to see them live.
The opening act was someone whom I'd heard briefly on the radio a couple of times but knew nothing about.   We got detained and arrived after the opening act had already started.  We quietly found our seats directly in front of the hot-shot guitarist who was opening.  I was surprised to see him sitting while the rest of the group stood around in the normal fashion.   The kid was an incredible guitarist who played an electric guitar sitting on his lap like a lap steel.  You've probably guessed by now that it was Jeff Healey.  It took me a little while to figure out that he was blind and had to play this way due to his handicap and the style he had developed.  Towards the end of his set he jumped up and swung the guitar behind his neck and started dancing around the stage with the bass player and a rhythm player watching his every move to make sure he didn't hit a mic or tumble off the stage right into my lap.
They guided him back to his chair as he finished his song to a standing ovation. 
I guess the point of this little nostalgic detour is that you shouldn't make any assumptions about someone who is playing sitting down.   I saw B B King a few years back and he never got up once but he was still able to captivate an packed house.

Tuffythepug


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 04:06:16 PM
I make no assumptions, of course, although everyone else does! Obviously, there are exceptions and I'm not trying to make ironclad rules but I think it's hard to deny that a guitarist who's sitting tends to fold himself into his guitar. While it might not matter when recording, it's not the best presentation for an audience. I also think it depends on whether you sing, as well. Succesful singer songwriters? Dylan stands (even when he's playing piano). Prine stands. Simon stands. Cohen stands. Lightfoot stands. Earle stands. 
BTW, the strap attached to the headstock doesn't get in my way, it just that it requires you to hold and play the neck at the same time. An activity that I find makes certain chords or measures more difficult to play. 


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: roguegnome on February 26, 2009, 08:07:25 PM
Funny, I never thought of Leo Kottke, Pat Donohue, Adrian Legg, Kelly Joe Phelps, Jorma, Pierre Bensusan or Andre Segovia as just phoning it in because they sat down to play.
OK for piano players?
And thousands, nay millions of people might say, "Who?" Maybe they should try standing.  :laughin:
Better to be very good than to be noticed by the masses. Maybe. I think. Others are certain to disagree, I know. Fame is their game. To your later post about singers, I think I would agree. But then I think of guys like Chris Smither. Always sits while he plays. And he sings and plays and writes right up there (seated, of course) with the best of them.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on February 26, 2009, 09:33:40 PM
Chris Smither would have a difficult time doing his dual foot tapping rhythm thing while standing.   I think he sits while he plays out of necessity.  Seeing him play while seated did not distract me or make me feel any less amazed by his talent.   He could have been laying down for all I cared.

Tuffythepug


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 26, 2009, 09:47:17 PM
When I gig, I sit and use a foot tapping thing to give rhythm to the music, but if I didn't, I would still sit!  Duck wouldn't like my show.  :whistling:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GA-ME on February 26, 2009, 09:59:02 PM
+10 on Smither. His song Hold On is one of the tunes I consider to be perfect.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on February 26, 2009, 11:37:47 PM
Wouldn't like your show? Unfortunately, if I don't like the music, I want to go home and play guitar. If I like you? I want to go home and play guitar, even more.   :smile:
Is it germane to point out that the most popular instrumental guitarist today and maybe ever, Tommy Emmanuel, stands to play?


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on February 26, 2009, 11:54:59 PM
Oh I'm just teasing you a little, Duck, because I know you can take it.
 :beer


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ffinke on February 27, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
In reference to whether it's safe to tie onto the headstock here's what Richard Hoover (Santa Cruz Guitar Co.) has to say:

 Re: headstocks and straps
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 07:44:36 PM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi ZeeBee,
Warnings against tying the strap on to the peghead go back way farther then my career in lutherie. Concerns being that the weight of the guitar, or antics of the player can exert forces that could throw the neck out of whack. I see this repeated by experts today, however...
in three plus decades of guitar science, repair, and failure analysis have I seen or heard of
any instance where this has created a problem in normal use. Consider that your strings pull with up to 160 lbs of force and that the weight on the end of the strap is probably under 4 lbs. and that the wood in the dovetail joint will fail due to torque before the glue joint will and because the guitar in its case or stand rests a percentage of its weight on the upper neck without neck problems... I have chosen to resign the peghead/strap threat to folklore. I will, as always, welcome others experiance to the contrary that may temper my judgement.
That said; there realy isn't a handy palce to secure the strap on the peghead that won't worry the finish eventually or perhaps interfere with tuning. If that doesn't concern you I say go ahead and tie one on.
All the best,
Richard


I still prefer the strap button on the heel but we shan't be snobbery, 'eh whot?

fred
 :bgrin:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on February 27, 2009, 05:53:31 PM

Is it germane to point out that the most popular instrumental guitarist today and maybe ever, Tommy Emmanuel, stands to play?
touché , sir. Tommy rocks with few if any peers.
as to Chris Smither (who I am going to see for the 4th time in early April) Intelligent Design is a favorite and certain to be a crowd pleaser, what with this being Darwin's 200th birthday.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on March 01, 2009, 12:51:24 AM
Hey Friends... I totally got lost when the discussion went to the performers sitting versus standing part.

I'll try to read up the previous posts but many artists I don't know (pardon my ignorance); but this too is expanding my musical taste.

ricky


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Danny on March 01, 2009, 04:05:15 AM
  Back to the ? I wouldn't put one in any of my better gits. My F-III won't get one for sure. But I don't gig so no need to stand. If you don't know exactly how to put one in, take it to someone who does. I've seen cracks from bad angles and just ugly pin installs where they are crooked because the screw angle is not right.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on March 01, 2009, 05:18:54 AM
  Back to the ? I wouldn't put one in any of my better gits. My F-III won't get one for sure. But I don't gig so no need to stand. If you don't know exactly how to put one in, take it to someone who does. I've seen cracks from bad angles and just ugly pin installs where they are crooked because the screw angle is not right.

Being accustomed to the standard strap pin in Taylor heels, I thought I'd have one on my Larris (I can't believe I now have more than one and one more coming).

But, I have somewhat been influenced by others here who want their heels clean - so I got me the Planet Waves quick release gadget that some suggested.

No problems so  far and I'm getting lots of practice playing standing up.

ricky


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: es-335 on March 01, 2009, 06:00:50 PM
I never put strap pins on my guitars!
My [now]beater no name guitar has a strap pin... Just because I used to do sunday services with the guitar for 4 years with it... but that was a really cheap guitar.. it only had a solid sitka top and laminate back/side...

But I won't put any holes on my gibson or larrivee, just because... I don't see the need.. If I did sunday services every week again? Maybe I'll think about it.. but still then, Bob dylan never put any holes on his guitars.. and that's how I  :roll

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:E85RxX0_T9Rx4M:http://webclass.edublogs.org/files/2008/04/bob_dylan12641.jpg)
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:-x_XuZXeo-IbmM:http://www.tererevip.com/wp0/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bob-dylan.jpg)


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: teh on March 01, 2009, 07:16:59 PM
After much deliberation I had Jim Holler install a strap pin in the heel of my D-35 last Saturday and it works great for the new Long Hollow Leather strap I bought from Gruhn Guitars. Standing up to play via strumming or finger picking is a nice change of pace and even for sitting. I have played sitting down using a strap fastened to the heel button and using a Planet Waves on the neck and fastened to the heel button feels better. My son took a lesson from Blues Guitar Player Scott Ainsle a couple of weeks ago who said he uses a strap to play when sitting and standing. Check out his web site.

A word to the wise to all do-it-yourselfers out there. While Jim was installing the strap button, he told me about a guy who decided to install a strap pin on his own into the heel of his Taylor Guitar and managed to hit the bolt from the bolt-on neck not once but twice and he succeeded in breaking off the screw both times.

No strap buttons or holes are being drilled into my Larrivee Parlor which didn't even come with an end pin or my OM-35 (which did). i will use the Planet Waves for those rare occasions when I would be standing to play the OM which I use mainly for finger style sitting down.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on March 02, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
I think maybe I should point out that once the pin is in, the hole is ... gone.  :smile:     


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Queequeg on March 02, 2009, 01:19:13 PM
I think maybe I should point out that once the pin is in, the hole is ... gone.  :smile:     
OK, we're launching a full-blown investigation.
Things don't just disappear, Sir.
Exactly where did the hole go?
When did you last see it, and can tell us your particular whereabouts when the alleged hole went missing?


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Danny on March 02, 2009, 01:27:33 PM
  Was it a "Black Hole?''


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 02, 2009, 01:28:16 PM
To each thier own.
 To me a guitar is to play. I don't like a strap tied to headstock at all.

1st off it gets in the way of left hand or at the least makes it feel like it's space is being encroached upon.

2nd it moves the guitar to position I don't like. With regular guitar, 14 fret, I sit down when setting strap length, then when I stand up, guitar is in same proper position as if I were sitting.  With 12 fret it does move guitar but puts it in a better position for me.

3rd I don't like the idea of neck being pulled on. The neck has impact on tone and to me should be left to vibrate freely and transfer those vibrations to the body. Plus it doesn't take much pull to affect tuning.

If you play sitting then sure, why put one on? Sitting is usually good when playing the guitar is only thing going on, but there are good reasons for standing. If you were going to sing, no guitar, would you sit? I wouldn't. My lungs can take in more air when I'm standing and hold notes better/longer with stomach and chest not compressed in sitting postion. That makes a big difference to me and I need everything I can get in that department.  When playing with others I also like to be able to turn to them easily, especially when playing rythm, and lock in on them, not only with ears but visually. To pick up on thier body lingo and let them pick up on mine.
 If you use a mic, it allows you to move into and out of, more easily.

If you're going to stand,  don't let the very idea of putting a button on the heal stop you from doing whats best for the playing.
To be honest, I wouldn't really get someone who stands getting hung up on this when there's almost always a piece of metal stuck in the rear end already. And I would rather buy a guitar with button in already.  





Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on March 02, 2009, 01:32:41 PM
OK, we're launching a full-blown investigation.
Things don't just disappear, Sir.
Exactly where did the hole go?
When did you last see it, and can tell us your particular whereabouts when the alleged hole went missing?

The alleged hole was last seen at The Albert Hall. ;) 


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Will Fly on March 02, 2009, 01:44:18 PM
Some facts as far as I know them...

1. Larrivee leave the choice of strap button or not to the customer - but there is nothing within the construction of the guitar that will cause a problem if a button is installed.

2. A strap looped around the headstock, behind the nut and under the strings, does not put undue strain on the guitar neck.

3. There's very little indication that an installed button is going to have any effect on a resale price.

So, basically, it's down to personal choice. I've always preferred a button at the side of the neck heel, personally, as I find the balance of the guitars I use to be uncomfortable if strapped at the headstock. Many players, however, prefer a headstock strap.

What I REALLY want is what my electrics have - a straplock fitting that can be snapped on and off both ends - but the jack socket/strap button at the bottom of the acoustic precludes this...


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 02, 2009, 01:51:10 PM
The alleged hole was last seen at The Albert Hall. ;) 
But finding your hole could be difficult when to mission was to see how many holes it took to fill it.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: bluesman67 on March 02, 2009, 02:11:11 PM
Anybody here a fan of "The Office"?  There's a few "that's what she said's" in this thread.  :whistling:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: GeeNorm on March 02, 2009, 02:55:43 PM
This has been an interesting thread. I've hesitated to post because it seems to come down purely to preference. I don't imagine many if any of us expect this thread to change our minds or opinions. Really, does anyone care if I prefer oatmeal to cream of wheat? Or if I eat breakfast at all?

I buy guitars to play. When I play solo I prefer to sit. When I play in groups I need to stand. When I stand I prefer a strap button.

My Ovation and Takamine OM sized beater have strap buttons. My LV-10 will be getting one, my LSV-11 will not.
Bless Jim Holler's heart, I haven't decided on the FG-III. I have flip flopped. Today I think it will start without one, I won't decide until it gets here.

Thanks for listening. Hey, was there a thread somewhere on which, if any, pick guard needs to be on the FG-IIIs? Easy answer to that one, "I don't know yet either!"

Norman


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Skyver on March 02, 2009, 08:52:41 PM
Electric guitars are made to be played standing up. Acoustic guitars are made to be played sitting down. That's why they don't have strap buttons.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 02, 2009, 09:00:26 PM
Acoustic guitars are made to be played sitting down. That's why they don't have strap buttons.
Almost every acoustic I see new in shops has a strap button. They're just leaving it up to you to make the choice about the second one.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on March 02, 2009, 10:14:17 PM
Thanks for all the comments.  For the first time, I'm trying the headstock sling thing.  Used to the Taylor strap buttons at the heel.

My OM-40 nearly got one earlier this past week, but when the clerk just asked me where in the heel I wanted it;   he sounded like he did not care nor had any clue

where to put it properly.  I pointed out that apparently the Larrivee website has specific recommendations where to put it in the heel.   Clerk did not care and just

put a masking tape to mark where the pin would go.   At that point, I said, "uh.... no thanks!"   Asked for the quick release Planet Waves headstock thingy

and that's what I'm trying out.


ricky


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Will Fly on March 02, 2009, 11:00:32 PM
Electric guitars are made to be played standing up. Acoustic guitars are made to be played sitting down. That's why they don't have strap buttons.

Well, that's an interesting thought, but I would respectfully disagree. :-)

Will


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on March 02, 2009, 11:33:57 PM
Electric guitars are made to be played standing up. Acoustic guitars are made to be played sitting down. That's why they don't have strap buttons.

If you add a   :winkin:  or a  :wink:  we'll know you're kidding. Otherwise,  :whistling:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 02, 2009, 11:37:20 PM
But it's too late now to say you were kidding, cause then I'll feel stupid.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Danny on March 02, 2009, 11:44:07 PM
But it's too late now to say you were kidding, cause then I'll feel stupid.
                     10-1614 more than a number for 28 years. 

                                Where's your smiley dude man :-)


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Mr_LV19E on March 03, 2009, 02:22:15 AM
I never put strap pins on my guitars!
Maybe I'll think about it.. but still then, Bob dylan never put any holes on his guitars.. and that's how I  :roll

(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:E85RxX0_T9Rx4M:http://webclass.edublogs.org/files/2008/04/bob_dylan12641.jpg)
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:-x_XuZXeo-IbmM:http://www.tererevip.com/wp0/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bob-dylan.jpg)

I was going to point out the strap that Willie Nelson uses and say he never put any holes in his guitar. But  :ohmy: I would have been wrong.   :winkin:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Skyver on March 03, 2009, 03:05:54 PM
 :wink:


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: pennerblue on March 03, 2009, 08:26:21 PM
Hey Ricky-  Good call for bailing out when the indifferent clerk was just going to put the pin anywhere.  As someone mentioned, Larrivee has a specific recommended location (treble side).  My Guild has a big fat beefy neck where it connects to the body and the shop put the pin dead center on that one.

I quick checked the other posts, and maybe I missed it, but another consideration is that tying around the headstock tends to pull the body of the guitar farther away from your body (pulls toward the fretting hand).  A strap pin tends to hold the guitar closer to the body (because the strap now drops almost straight down from your left shoulder- if you are a righty).  Preference will determine what is best.

I like the position when tied around the headstock, but like others, I don't like getting my hand tangled up in the strap when playing an open E, etc.

So I guess the pin just gives you move options (if it is installed properly).  I decided to get one on the FIII, hope it won't be a problem because of the 12 fret design.

Penner


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on March 03, 2009, 09:12:57 PM
Unlike Brother Bob, I tend to play more than a few strummed cowboy chords.  :wink:
Anyway, I find that attaching a strap that way mostly works but again, am I the only one (not talking about the strap actually, physically in the way) who finds that with the strap attached to the headstock, that it interferes with your ability to (comfortably) play certain things? Like you can't get a proper grip? For example, I find I have to pull the body of the guitar to the right, nearly under my right arm and squeeze my left elbow in tight to my rib cage in order to grip a grande barred F or Bb at the first fret. This becomes a very awkward manouver at times which is why I've abandoned that method of strap attachment. I assume it's a matter of leverage rather than magic as I have no such trouble with a strap attached by the heel.
Therefore (even if I'm alone on this) I'm going to have to fail the Planet Waves system and the entire shoelace theory on purely technical grounds. Like playing a G chord with your first three fingers, it may work for some but in the end, it's an inferior method.   


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 03, 2009, 09:36:33 PM
I think the reason to put to button on treble side is because it grabs the strap better with the angle coming around sharp.
 The button on 12 fret shouldn't be a problem, at least mine isn't, and using a strap with it makes it
fall in a more comfortable position for me. I am slowly getting more used to playing it sitting however.
 Ricky, how are you going to compare and see how much better having the strap button on neck works? (sorry). I had the same eary feeling on first one I had put on as a teen but it really is the way to go if you're going to use strap much. I still don't like watching people drill on one of my guitars anymore than I enjoy watching open heart surgery on TV. If fact I'll walk away while they drill! But I'll have a button put on as soon as I get any guitar.
 And yes Duck, there's nothing about having strap tied to neck that I like. The way it pulls, or getting in my left hands space.
 It's not a big deal to have button put on neck by anyone who can drill and use the appropriate size starter bit.
Highly recommended.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: tuffythepug on March 03, 2009, 09:50:20 PM
Unlike Brother Bob, I tend to play more than a few strummed cowboy chords.  :wink:
Anyway, I find that attaching a strap that way mostly works but again, am I the only one (not talking about the strap actually, physically in the way) who finds that with the strap attached to the headstock, that it interferes with your ability to (comfortably) play certain things? Like you can't get a proper grip? For example, I find I have to pull the body of the guitar to the right, nearly under my right arm and squeeze my left elbow in tight to my rib cage in order to grip a grande barred F or Bb at the first fret. This becomes a very awkward manouver at times which is why I've abandoned that method of strap attachment. I assume it's a matter of leverage rather than magic as I have no such trouble with a strap attached by the heel.
Therefore (even if I'm alone on this) I'm going to have to fail the Planet Waves system and the entire shoelace theory on purely technical grounds. Like playing a G chord with your first three fingers, it may work for some but in the end, it's an inferior method.   

Ducktrapper
RE:  forming the G chord.  yeah, I never could figure out why some people play that chord with the first three fingers when it makes changes more difficult.  Simply going from G to G7 quickly becomes way more difficult than it needs to be.   using 2nd, 3rd and pinky to form the G makes it so much easier:  lift the pinky and hammer down the index finger on the 1st String, 1st fret and you're there.
Of course there may be advantages the other fingering that I'm not aware of.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: flatlander on March 03, 2009, 10:17:52 PM
Ok best way to make a G guys. I use 3 different fingerings for G and they all serve a purpose.
I use your perfect fingering when I fingerpick usually. Mainly to get the G7 without having to interupt the thumb thing going on in the bass.
 Flat picking I usually use 4 fingers with pinky on 1st string and ring on 2nd/3rd fret. That's good for a couple reasons. Playing the D note on 2nd string sounds good to start with and gets rid of that annoying open B string. It also has my pinky and ring in position to slide up the neck and get 3rd's or slide up to 7th fret and get G chord there, with 3rd string open. Lots of stuff to do there. On the bass end it puts my strong 1st finger in position to do a strong G run if playing bluegrass or just good strong bass runs including hammer ons
of middle finger against 1st finger,  in general for any kind of music.
 The truely inferior G with 3 fingers I use for the bass string reasons just mentioned but sometimes the D on 2nd string just can't be played without clashing. 
 I makes chords with different fingerings depending on how they are going to be used, what chord is next, or before it and what fingers can be freed up to addmelody or just additional notes. Hope that opens your minds some.


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: ducktrapper on March 03, 2009, 10:49:35 PM
Perhaps a different thread but being able to easily play the chord both ways isn't a bad thing. The "wrong" way allows some interesting melody playing on the D string with the ring and pinky, as in Goodtime Charlie's Got the Blues or Tequila Sunrise.   


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: Danny on March 04, 2009, 01:56:07 AM

 am I the only one (not talking about the strap actually, physically in the way) who finds that with the strap attached to the headstock, that it interferes with your ability to (comfortably) play certain things? Like you can't get a proper grip? For example, I find I have to pull the body of the guitar to the right, nearly under my right arm and squeeze my left elbow in tight to my rib cage in order to grip a grande barred F or Bb at the first fret. This becomes a very awkward manouver at times which is why I've abandoned that method of strap attachment. I assume it's a matter of leverage rather than magic as I have no such trouble with a strap attached by the heel.
Therefore (even if I'm alone on this) I'm going to have to fail the Planet Waves system and the entire shoelace theory on purely technical grounds. Like playing a G chord with your first three fingers, it may work for some but in the end, it's an inferior method.  
                Your points are all valid on the strap interfering as you stated. I don't know if it's long arms or what but I also bump into a strap with my arm. Probably because of the way I bend my wrist.
                 And on the G chord. I wish I could play it another way. Not much strech left in my hands. Sometimes I just Barre chord a G. Or transpose a song into something I can mostly use barres for to avoid the "stretch"
                 Finger style has limbered me up some though and I will work on that G with the pinky on E.
 I do use the pinky with ring on B as flatlander stated, that is a convienent chord formation. You can pivot off the ring finger and play a D etc.
                 If I played like you and Matt do I would definitely go for the pin in the heel. I like the feel of the strap when it's on the pin right out of the back of the heel. I know most prefer the treble side.
                                                 Brother Danny, (Cowboy chording my way down the road)  :guitar


Title: Re: Strap Pin or Not?
Post by: rpm60912 on March 05, 2009, 06:18:33 AM
 Matt,

I a/b my Taylor with strap pin on treble side of heel & my OM with Planet Waves quick release sling on headstock

could not honestly say I prefer one over the other. The bigger size GS made my OM more comfy to play.

Sling in headstock does not get in the way of forming any chords.

Would be interesting to a/b on same size git - strap pin versus headstock sling.

ricky