Larrivee Guitar Forum

Main Forums => Other Guitar Makers => Topic started by: Sabatini on February 20, 2006, 08:17:42 PM



Title: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Sabatini on February 20, 2006, 08:17:42 PM
The following guitar is up to $192,100 on e-bay, but hasn't met its reserve.
Jump right in!


http://cgi.ebay.com/One-Owner-1942-Vintage-Martin-D-45-Guitar_W0QQitemZ7390877541QQcategoryZ33028QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Redeemed on February 20, 2006, 08:28:26 PM
Yeah, that's just crazy...

And some guy offered him a Maybach!!

I also like the huge stain on the lower bout.  :EM>


-dan


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: parsky1 on February 20, 2006, 08:39:00 PM
Look how straight grained the back is! 


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Redeemed on February 20, 2006, 08:46:13 PM
Look how straight grained the back is! 

Oh I know!  that's pretty nice.  But $192,100 nice? hardly... IMO.


-dan


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Sabatini on February 20, 2006, 08:51:34 PM
Anything that is made of wood and costs $192,000 should have at least 4 bedrooms.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: parsky1 on February 20, 2006, 09:26:24 PM
Anything that is made of wood and costs $192,000 should have at least 4 bedrooms.

So true... :P


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Fergy07 on February 20, 2006, 09:28:26 PM
either way your taking out a mortgage, and at least a house is deductable!

Andy


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 20, 2006, 10:10:33 PM
Quote
I also like the huge stain on the lower bout.
 

Yeah, every time you played that guitar, you'd be reminded of some guy in Baker City sticking his wet armpit in that spot every day for 50 years.  No thanks.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: FNG on February 20, 2006, 10:45:18 PM
Pure insanity.  I say buy a new D-45 and spend the rest on a house!


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Randy_R on February 20, 2006, 10:51:18 PM
And for those hopefull soles who are constantly trying to convince us that THEIR indian rosewood guitar is really brazilian, and hence worth lots of extra money..

You'll note that one can tell the difference even with a very premium piece of quartersawn wood.  ^_^



Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: woody b on February 20, 2006, 11:41:09 PM
I would bid $192,000 on it but I'm afraid MY bid would be the one to reach the reserve price. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 21, 2006, 12:54:48 AM
I don't think $192K is the reserve; it looks they're not listing the reserve to discourage...well, something or other.  Beats me.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Calvin on February 21, 2006, 05:22:12 AM
Just ridiculous.  I dont get the point.  BTW it's alreay pass the 192K haha.  I guess you gotta have what you gotta have.  I think I'd save the money and buy myself 20 custom made guitars, each one will sound just as good if not better.  And each will be more unique than the next one.  But then again, what the heck would I do with 20 guitars.  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 21, 2006, 05:32:54 AM
I liked the fact that they're anticipating special fly-ins from bidders tomorrow to have a look.

I guess if I were going to spend over $200K for a guitar, a couple more thou for a last minute flight wouldn't be that big a deal.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Denis on February 21, 2006, 01:41:24 PM
US $202,322.23  and reserve still not met.



Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: mazareth on February 21, 2006, 02:05:29 PM
Just think, for 192K you could buy 19 new Olsons, Ryans, Petros, etc and still have enough left over for an 05 or 09 series Larrivee. Or I could forego the guitars and simply not work for 5 years!


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Ratishna on February 21, 2006, 05:34:02 PM
The point you guys are missing is that in ten years this guitar will be worth far more than any new owner pays today.  Ten years ago you could have bought this guitar for less than $100K but people scoffed at the price then just like they are now.

E. Shoaf


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: fitness1 on February 21, 2006, 07:12:15 PM
just about two years ago Elderly's sold an OM-45 (similar year and condition) for 145,000 after being on the site for a while, so Ratishna is likely right.......one thing that gets me though, if you have plans of getting in excess of 200k for an instrument, couldn't you at least polish it up a little.....the pics of the endpin area don't look like it's very tidy :SHK>


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Sabatini on February 21, 2006, 09:38:20 PM
Fitness1,

Haven't you owned this guitar at least once already? -_- ^_^


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: fitness1 on February 21, 2006, 11:57:52 PM
you'd have to remove a couple of zeros first...... :GRN>


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: C-10-4-me on February 22, 2006, 12:57:09 AM
Now up to $204,900.00!!
If I could afford this guitar I doubt I could ever turn loose of it. I have wanted a D-45 for about 30 years now, and looking at this guitar makes me want one even more. Of course, I'd have to buy a poor man's D-45 and this one is not in that category!


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: mdrulez on February 22, 2006, 03:24:35 AM
i wonder what the Martin D-100 will get on ebay in 50 years.  ^_^


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: lestrouble on February 22, 2006, 04:24:13 AM
this is crazy........ are we talking about RUPEES or wat or maybe RUPIAH......great americans spirit....


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Denis on February 22, 2006, 12:14:22 PM
US $215,200.00 and still the reserve is not met!!!



Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: jimmyd on February 22, 2006, 06:03:21 PM
This is an investment piece for sure. I doubt it will ever be played again and that's just too bad. I didn't see any mention of how it sounds or it's playability. The little secret about pre-war Martins is that not all of them were stellar souinding guitars and are still not stelllar sounding guitars. Probably all very good instruments. Just not all with that elusive mojo. I'd laugh if this super collectors item was no better sounding than a current issue Martin Golden Era instrument. I'd suspect the investor who buys it cares nothing about it's tone. In the vault and out of sight.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Acoustickler on February 22, 2006, 06:29:01 PM
This is an investment piece for sure. I doubt it will ever be played again and that's just too bad...I'd suspect the investor who buys it cares nothing about it's tone. In the vault and out of sight.

Unless the buyer's a stinkin' rich recording artist, which is possible.  They say that one of the forces driving up prices on vintage axes in the past was the Rolling Stones team combing America for prime vintage instruments with big chequebooks...

Cheers,
B.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Ratishna on February 22, 2006, 08:33:56 PM
I don't know who "they" are who say the Rolling Stones team drove up prices on vintage guitars, but it isn't true.  Rich musicians have always been only a small part of the group who buy lots of vintage instruments.

E. Shoaf


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Acoustickler on February 22, 2006, 09:14:02 PM
I don't know who "they" are who say the Rolling Stones team drove up prices on vintage guitars, but it isn't true.  Rich musicians have always been only a small part of the group who buy lots of vintage instruments.

E. Shoaf

Hi Ratishna,

I think you read too much into what I said.  I said "one of the forces".  Clearly we agree rich musicians are part of the market.  Perhaps you take issue with what portion of the market they constitute.  I have no first hand knowledge of that, nor did I purport to.  I'd be interested and happy to see any info you have on the breakdown of who buys these vintage guitars. 

The "they" I was referring to in my post were the authors of several published articles I've read.  One I saw recently (IIRC) reported a discussion between people in the vintage guitar market, who referred to the Rolling Stones American tours over the years as "vacuum cleaners" sucking up vintage instruments along the way.

Cheers,
B.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Acoustickler on February 22, 2006, 09:24:48 PM
This was the quote from Jim Washburn's recent MSN article:

"Just how much can a guitar possibly be worth?

The question came up as several top vintage-guitar dealers sat at a picnic table backstage at a Rolling Stones concert in Arizona on a December day in 1981. They were guests of Keith Richards' guitar tech, Alan Rogan, who, along with keeping Richards' guitars in tune, was charged with obtaining more rare ones for his collection. As with other guitar-driven bands, a Stones tour was like a huge vacuum cleaner sucking up America's rare instruments, and these dealers were the bristles."


I've seen similar comments before elsewhere.

Cheers,
B.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Ratishna on February 23, 2006, 02:00:32 AM
KR doesn't have a huge stable of guitars.  Rick Neilson used to, but he has sold off many.  Slash has over 50 Les Pauls, Steve Howe has maybe 100.  Randy Bachman has his 300 or so Gretches but he is the only well-known Rock musician that has that many guitars, to my knowledge.  Malmsteen talks about having hundreds of Strats but I don't know about that guy.

I've been closely associated with the vintage guitar market for over 20 years.  My expereince is this: it isn't musicians with the big collections, its other guys.  Its the guy up in New Hampshire with 1500+, the guy in Philly with 600+, the guy I met at the big Dallas show a few years back who beat me to a lap steel deal but who bought me a beer because it was the 1,000th instrument he was adding to his collection and he wanted to celebrate.   Nice guy, he was in his early 60s and still acquiring.  I know these people and I know what they have.  They have a LOT of nice guitars.  Chinery had over 1200 when he died, and he had been selling some of the lower quality ones for some time.

Musicians see guitars as tools of the trade.  KR uses his guitars in the studio.  They don't keep hundreds and hundreds of guitars, and for the most part they use them.  Collectors have a different agenda and are more interested in building a collection around a theme or simply in acquiring more and better instruments.  Most play, but a few don't.

Dealers in 1981 would have been more than pleased to have the Stones crew buying prime collectible guitars, since the bottom had pretty much fallen out of the retail guitar market at that time (remember the transition to synth music?).  Dealers were also happy to sell to Japanese, German, and other foreign buyers.  They might give lip service to how it was wrong to sell off Americana outside the borders but I never knew any to turn down a sale.  Most still don't, and it doesn't matter.  As we learned with the Tsumura sell-off, guitars from Japan *do* come back to the USA.  In that case we're talking about several hundred prime vintage collectibles.

To me, the discussion of this particular D-45 leads to the same place any discussion of high prices for vintage guitars does:  that it somehow isn't fair to players that those great old collectible guitars cost so much and that regular players can't afford to play them.  This has always sounded like jealousy to me.  You know, the haves versus the have-nots.  I'm definitely part of the latter group.  I'm a  regular guy with a mortgage and kids to support.  I've got a few guitars.  Okay, more than a few, and some are nice vintage examples, but I got mine a long time ago.  No big deal.  Let the people with money spend it on whatever they want.  You want a nice guitar?  Buy a new Larrivee or any of dozens of other makes.  There have never been more quality guitars available.  They may not have that vintage "mojo" but they sound and play extremely well.

I've played a lot of pre-war Martins over the years, including 2 of the vaunted pre-war D-45s like the one for sale on ebay.  Most of them were fine sounding and playing the guitars. One was the finest I've ever played.  Worth over $200K   YES!!  I believe so.   If, that's *if* you have the money.  I don't, so I don't care what it sells for except as a benchmark for the market.  I like the guitars I have just fine. I don't really need another.  Play yours some tonight and you'll probably feel the same way.

There will always be people with more money than you or me.  That's life. If they choose to spend some on guitars, why should we whine about it?

I generally keep a low profile on this board.  I think I'll go back and hibernate for a while now.

E. Shoaf


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 23, 2006, 02:43:36 AM
I don't really understand collectors with way more guitars than they can play.  I'm nudging 20 now, and that's getting me nervous.  If I played out more than I do, I could maybe see having more, but as it is some of my guitars have never seen a stage.

On the subject of stars, the article on John Fogerty in Vintage Guitar said he had some very large number, I can't remember what it was.  But he also said he sold quite a few at Gruhn's when he was living in Nashville.



Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Acoustickler on February 23, 2006, 03:27:36 AM

There will always be people with more money than you or me.  That's life. If they choose to spend some on guitars, why should we whine about it?

I generally keep a low profile on this board.  I think I'll go back and hibernate for a while now.

E. Shoaf

Hey there,

Not sure how much of your post was directed to me, but I am in complete agreement with you on what I'll call the economics of the situation.  I have not and will not criticize others for how they spend their money.  I don't care how much people spend on a collectible or how many of an item they have in their collections.  FWIW, on this BB and anywhere else, I'll back you on everything you said there.

I don't know who or what would drive you into hibernation, but I sure hope it wasn't me.  My only point on this thread is that we don't *know* who will end up with this guitar.  So before we bemoan its loss to the "vault" we would have to know it won't end up in a studio held by Neil Young.  Or Clapton.  Or...   There are only 71 of these guitars known to exist, so it stood to reason to me that an acoustic-playing recording artist with money to burn might well want this - and have the bucks to get it.  And even if it is going to the "vault", is it our business?  Not really.

Cheers,
B.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: drh64 on February 23, 2006, 03:55:59 AM
It's amazing at how much you can tell about someone on the other transactions they have made.  Go check out the higher bidder's items.....


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Acoustickler on February 23, 2006, 04:01:23 AM
Well the high bidder right now ($216,000) says he was in George Jones' band in 2000.

Cheers,
B.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Daysailer on February 23, 2006, 07:20:14 AM
$$$$$  217,100.00       reserve still not met        :huh:

 :mellow:


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Ratishna on February 23, 2006, 02:34:51 PM
If it doesn't make reserve, you'll never know how high the seller valued it.  But you'll know how the market did.

E. Shoaf


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: inspector13 on February 23, 2006, 03:11:46 PM
$218,100.01   (Reserve not met) 


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: CF Larrivee on February 23, 2006, 04:20:49 PM
I would venture that the reserve is at least $225,000. Happy bidding.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: jimmyd on February 24, 2006, 02:19:12 AM
It is sure an entertaining topic. The truth is that in my little world it means less to me than the new traffic light out on the highway. I do find it interesting that it can evoke so much emotion. I think it's just fine if a three chord banger buys it, or a collector who hides it in a vault, or if Jim Hurst buys it and plays it for all it is worth. It's also just fine if it really steams up some people to see it go where they don't want it to. They are entitled to their opinion as much as the guy with the deep pockets is entitled to take it home. If ebay figures out that people are enjoying watching and speculating on these types of auctions they might start charging for the entertainment.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: roknroll on February 24, 2006, 02:57:28 AM
I think it would be hilarious, If Bill Gates or some other rich guy buys it...Then smashes it at a bluegrass festival in front of all kinds of Martinheds.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Calvin on February 24, 2006, 07:49:34 AM
Who cares who is buying the vintage instrument.  If people have the money, then they should have the freedom to buy it, musicians or not.  If a rich bachelor can live in a mansion/drive a Lambo, should he be told he doesn't need it/can't drive the car to its limits?  If man walks up to me on the street and said I dont need my sports coupe, I'd be like "what's your problem buddy?"

Nevertheless I can see where some of the frustration is comming from.  But I must also quickly point out, todays guitars are just as good if not better than the Pre-war Martins. Let's say a musician has to have a prewar D45, when any of the Boutique makers or even the factories can produce one 99.99% indentical to it for 1/20th of the price (heck you can buy a very decent Larrivee or Martin for under $1500), doesn't that make the musician as "pretentious" as what some of the collectors are accused of being.

I bought a guitar (err...  :EM> GuitarSSSS) because I love the way they are and how they look and sound.  But most importantly, I bought them because I love music.  Most people that own 250 dollar yamaha's play 250 times better than I do, but does that mean me owning Larrivee's (or any other high end brand for that matter) make it... well... WRONG?


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: didymus21 on February 24, 2006, 08:10:44 AM
I would venture that the reserve is at least $225,000. Happy bidding.

If it doesn't hit reserve, they'll just sell it to the highest bidder.  It sold a week ago for about $230K, so I bet it's $230K.  The last guy didn't pay.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: cldplytkmn on February 24, 2006, 07:39:43 PM
so why have a reserve then?


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: didymus21 on February 24, 2006, 10:24:21 PM
so why have a reserve then?

To entice people to bid higher.  For all we know the reserve could be $500K.  All sorts of little tricks to play in ebay.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: TrinityGuitars on February 24, 2006, 11:02:21 PM
The news from my Martin rep is that a similar guitar sold last month for $285,000
  That is more that 1/4 of a million dollars for a guitar. Bet its seen the end of playing bluegrass out in the rain!


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: didymus21 on February 25, 2006, 12:20:40 AM
The news from my Martin rep is that a similar guitar sold last month for $285,000
  That is more that 1/4 of a million dollars for a guitar. Bet its seen the end of playing bluegrass out in the rain!
:SHK>


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: cldplytkmn on February 25, 2006, 02:52:47 AM
wow... you guys see the end of the auction?  spot pony had his max bid at 255,000... and 'hennythehammer' bid with about 15 seconds left and got it.  henny has 4 feedback, the most recent of which was over a year ago... hope for the sellers sake the guy is legit.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Calvin on February 25, 2006, 03:34:47 AM
What is this guitar worth?  BMW M3 CSL + MERCEDES BENZ CLK 55 AMG + AUDI RS4 + PORSCHE CARRERA GT3, give or take.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: jeremy3220 on February 25, 2006, 03:22:54 PM
What is this guitar worth?  BMW M3 CSL + MERCEDES BENZ CLK 55 AMG + AUDI RS4 + PORSCHE CARRERA GT3, give or take.

Except this guitar is a better investment.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: mazareth on February 25, 2006, 05:54:51 PM
This has turned into an interesting thread. And has given me a lot to think about. I've never had the privalege of playing any prewar guitars. The closest for me was a '47 Epiphone archtop, which is of course a very different animal

I'm up to 9 guitars and two basses, along with assorted amps mics and PA gear. I'm getting ready cut down to four guitars and 1 bass. Once I reach that goal, I may self-impose a 1 in 1 out policy.

I haven't actually checked the auction for a while, but IIRC, the seller is doing this on behalf of a family, as much as I hate see a family sell off a part of their history, I can certainly understand the need to do so.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: drathbun on February 25, 2006, 06:28:43 PM
Unfortunately this guitar will probably go to a non-guitar player collector. It is too bad it becomes about the money and not about the instrument.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 25, 2006, 07:34:35 PM
The winner probably used esnipe or similar program.  I was a complete ebay virgin, so two weeks ago I got a friend of mine to bid for a Les Paul I wanted.  He used esnipe and had warned me that's what he was going to do.  I was sitting there watching at the end of the auction, getting more and more agitated because my bid wasn't coming, and it showed up in literally the last three or four seconds and won.  (To tell you the truth, I was sure I'd be outbid, but it didn't happen.)

I know that there's some debate among seasoned ebayers over these sniping programs, but as I understand it, a snipe bid will only win if the bidder intends to outbid all other previous bidders, and they're helpful for buyers because they prevent bidding wars.  So in the case of this Martin, the winner might have been prepared to pay even more than he actually did, but as long as he paid more than everyone else was willing to pay, both buyer and seller still come out ahead.  Sure, the seller might have gotten even more for the guitar, but in this case I don't think he has anything to complain about.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: cldplytkmn on February 25, 2006, 09:05:42 PM
yeah i don't really think that the 'sniping' is necessarily a bad thing... i'm sure he put in a number higher than the actual selling price... and i'm sure that the others had their max bid set as far as they'd go, if they didn't, they should have.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Tycho on February 26, 2006, 12:42:05 AM
Yeah, exactly.  A snipe gets you nowhere if there's somebody out there willing to pay more than you are


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: schnitz on February 26, 2006, 03:30:02 AM
Sold on Feb 24 for $255,100!!! "hennythehammer" must have some dollars.


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Randy_R on February 26, 2006, 12:38:31 PM
Sold on Feb 24 for $255,100!!! "hennythehammer" must have some dollars.

All those $200/seat concert ticket dollars got to go somewhere...  :WNK>


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Gemnoc on February 26, 2006, 08:28:24 PM
There's a 1941 D-45 on auction too, though that one seems to have been extensively repaired, so it won't probably go as high.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1941-VINTAGE-MARTIN-D-45-MUST-SELL-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ7391181236QQcategoryZ118981QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Big Martin on February 26, 2006, 09:12:30 PM
$255,000

reserve met

I believe reserve was $210,000 so the owner probably made a tidy little extra windfall

hmmmpf, it's only money


Title: Re: $192,100 but reserve not met.
Post by: Ratishna on February 27, 2006, 04:41:07 AM
High profile big dollar sales tend to bring more guitars to market.  Its been happening with vintage Strats and Teles for the past 9 months in a big way.

E. Shoaf