Action Issue - "stiff"

[rpg51]

I have heard the term "stiff" action used and I wonder what it means and what causes it.  I have often played guitars that feel "stiff" and hard to play even though they have the same strings and same scale length as other guitars that play like butter.  

Is this feeling the result of a too high saddle, or too much neck relief?  Does the curvature of the fretboard affect this feeling?   Do you all know what I mean?  

Keep it clean boys.  B)  

[ronmac]

There is some talk of this in other postings...

It really boils down to physics, pure and simple. Feel can be changed by altering any number of factors, including:

string brand and guage
scale length
fretboard radius
saddle height
nut slot height
fret height
neck width
neck thickness and profile

Any two instruments with the same specs in all of the above should feel the same. Alter any one of the above and it will feel different. A good luthier can assess your instrument, your playing style and your request of how it should feel to determine the physical changes required.

[HanSoo417]

wow. he difinitely got em all covered there. although i don't see how 2 instruments could be identical. I think even with all the specs the same every indtument is still different. theoretically they shouldn't be but they are. lol :)  

[rpg51]

Yea, i guess you can't gain all the knowledge you need in a 10 minute forum post.  But I sometimes feel that when I am shopping around for guitars and playing them in a shop, some very nice sounding guitars, made by very good builders, feel "stiff" to me and I suspect that that feeling can be completely eliminated with a good set up but I'm never sure about it.  Frankly I have often gotten this sense when I play Larrivee's in a couple of local shops.  I wonder, is it something about the guitar's inherent characteristic that I am reacting to, or is just a set up issue???  How does the newbie tell the difference? Do you know what I mean? It is a big concern because some of the variables you mention above are adjustable with a set up.  Others are not.  

My son bought a Larrivee D 5 a few years ago.  It felt stiff to me.  He had it set up and when it came home it was, to my way of thinking, a complete transformation.  Played like butter.  He came home to visit recently - a few years later and no interim set ups - and it felt stiff again.  To be specific, on a Larrivee, with their particular neck profile and radius etc., does a set up make as big a difference as I think?  Should I shy away from a Larrivee with a factory set up because it feels stiff to me or should I assume that the stiff feeling can be eliminated with a good set up?    By the way, I have experienced this same thing with a Gibson J45 and several Martins I have played.  The Gibson in particular - which I believe is a short scale - felt VERY stiff to me.  

My sense is that the stiffness I perceive in these guitars is completely related to the set up and has little to do with the inherent characteristics of the guitar such as the fret board radius and neck width and neck profile which cannot be changed with a set up.  Do you agree?

[Ratishna]

Points out the value of having a really *good* luthier who understands the interaction of all the issues related to 'stiffness' in playing feel.

E. Shoaf

[Edavis]

The two new Larrivees' I got this year (unlike several other guitars I've got) both came with great factory set-ups.They feel so good to play just dont want to put em down and they sound mighty fine too.

[ronmac]

My sense is that the stiffness I perceive in these guitars is completely related to the set up and has little to do with the inherent characteristics of the guitar such as the fret board radius and neck width and neck profile which cannot be changed with a set up.  Do you agree?

Not totally.

If the neck width, profile and fretboard radius is outside your physical comfort zone, ie. too fat, too narrow, too flat, etc., altering the setup may not be enough to make you happy.

Fretting the strings is work, and your fingers, hand and arm are the machines that perform that work. If they are not in the optimum position to perform that work it is not going to feel right.

And that brings up another good point,that just came to me...

The body style and shape could very well be another factor to consider. This will dictate how the guitar is positioned relative to your right and left hand,and that can make a big difference. If you want an experiment to prove this point do the following:

Play any guitar you happen to have beside you (we all keep at least one next to our computer, right?) with the waist resting on your right leg. Now barre a full F chord at the first fret. Now reposition the guitar so that the waist is resting on your left leg and play the same chord. You should notice a difference in how it feels when playing in this position. Shifting the position of the guitar changes the angles and alters the mechanics of your playing.

So perhaps, considering the above experiment, some people will notice enough difference in the dimensions of the neck of some instruments to perceive a difference in tension. This may explain why some brands "feel' different than others. Our hands are forced into a position that is not optimum, for our physical attributes, to apply pressure to the string easily.

I am sure I am forgetting another, perhaps invisible, force that will prove everything here wrong:(

[SlowFingers]

I am having similar difficulties with my OM-3MT. It definitely feels like it plays stiff to me. I tried changing string on it to some I am more comfortable with (Martin 80/20 lights), but that did not really help. The action on it is definitely higher than that of my Seagull, and less uniform up the neck. As much as I love the tone of the Larrivee, it is just not as much fun to play to me right now as my M6 is. It definitely needs a setup done to make it match more closely with the Gull.

[oldrockfan]

I'll just add that it is really amazing what a good setup can do to the "stiffness" of a guitar. I think there are 3 factors that are critical:
accurately leveled frets
proper bridge/sadle height
proper relief on the neck

An average guitar tech will tend to do the easiest of the three which is tweak the relief on the neck. A good tech will level any high frets and then tweak the neck. A really great tech will evaluate the nut/bridge and frets along with the neck to get the guitar in balance.

One more thing, even a perfectly setup guitar can drift out of that perfect condition over time. Humidity and weather conditions can require adjustments to even the most expertly setup instrument. In fact, if you insist on the lowest of actions, you have to expect to make occasional adjustments.

I used to be too cheap to spend the money for fret leveling with my setups but now I am a big believer. Even big name makers often have issues with some of the frets being a bit high. It seems it is especially true down near where the neck contacts the body of the guitar.  

[sacredground]

Really good thread guys!

At the risk of redundancy I will say that paying 50-75 bucks for a professional setup is worth it. Over time frets will move from changes in humidity and being played. Fret leveling is important for new as well as older instruments.

[rpg51]

I personally believe that the biggest single factor that makes a guitar feel "stiff" is the action height.  Next is scale length.  I know the other issues are also factors but that is my gut feel about this.  To the average player stiff translates to high action.  I will be receiving a new larrivee soon and when I do I expect that I will want to bring it to a good luthier and have a first rate set up done where the string height at the nutt is measured and adjusted, the frets are checked and leveled if need be, the neck is adjusted to provide minimal relief and the saddle height is adjusted to yield lowish string height at the 12 fret.  If I get a little buzzing over time, or in the winter, I can tweak the neck a tiny bit to put a little more relief in, or I can through in a saddle with a bit more height.  Thats my plan.  If that doesn't produce a guitar with a nice soft feel then I'll sell it.  My expectation is that these steps will yield a soft feel.  We'll see.  

Thanks for all your input. It is nice to have folks to bat these ideas around with.  

[ronmac]

Knowing exactly what you want is a lot of the battle. Sounds like you have a good handle on that.

Let us know how it turns out.

[thomgs1]

I tend to figure "stiffness" usually means "high action."   But unless something is much out of whack, there's usually a trade-off there.  A guitar with higher action will be a bit more dynamic-- a bit louder, more versatile.  And I suspect it will help make you a better guitarist in the end.  A guitar with lower action will be easier to play.

I think it was Bob Taylor whom I read as saying he's put a lot of effort into making guitars that play well with low action.  Taylors are known as very easy to play.  On the other hand, a friend of mine had his Taylor set up with lower action, and I thought it was a lot more fun to play, more interesting, with higher action.

[rpg51]

Its funny, I heard very nice things about Taylors, but every one I played left me cold.  Sometimes I think my 40 year old medium level epiphone has it all over all these modern guitars.  It is toast now, not worth repairing.  But it was soft and easy to play with great tone even though it never had a real set up in its entire life.  

I love the Larrivee, i am concerned that I won't be able to get it to have that soft playability I am looking for.  We'll see.

[JohnM2001]

I've noticed stiff action on some guitars.  In fact, my L-01 seems noticeably stiffer than my OM-03W.  On the OM, playing leads and bending alot are very easy, not so on the L, despite the actions looking the same:  saddle height, neck relief, etc.  As others have mentioned, I believe its probably in the nut, I should bring both to my tech, and let him see how the OM feels, and ask him to make it like that.  I bet he'd tweak the nut slots.  I do some setup things on my guitars, but am afraid to mess up my guitar's nut.  

[rpg51]

It really boils down to physics, pure and simple. Feel can be changed by altering any number of factors, including:

string brand and guage
scale length
fretboard radius
saddle height
nut slot height
fret height
neck width
neck thickness and profile

I have some questions about a few of these factors:

All other things being equal and within normal limits for steel string guitars:

Does a flatish fretboard radius tend to feel stiffer than a more sharply curved fretboard radius?

Do higher frets tend to feel softer?

Does wider neck tend to feel stiffer than narrow neck?

Does thick neck tend to feel softer than thin neck profile?


If I'm looking for a soft feeling playable fretboard - (the more I play the more I personally value the playability of a guitar even more than subtle nuances of tone - I need to be able to move the strings around a bit - its that blues thing I guess) - what combination of these non adjustable factors is most likely to meet my needs?

[Randy_R]

I'll comment on the frets part.

Some players like high frets. I've heard it said that strings should be depressed behind the frets only enough to get the string to ring out (at the new pitch).

If you are a good enough player to do this, then it makes sense to use higher frets.

However. I don't have that kind of selective touch in my fretting fingers. I also find high frets make it more difficult to run full barre chords up and down the neck.

If there are high frets, then you can expect some distortion of the tone as the string is pulled down behind the fret either playing or with a capo. I THINK this is what some other players have referred to as stiffness in the action, or perceived higher tension in the strings (which is a false perception).

That being said, I prefer a medium-low action and will put up with occassional string buzz if I'm digging in too hard.

I expect lots of varying opinions on this.

[ronmac]

I expect lots of varying opinions on this.

Yes Randy, but only  you offer quantity discounts! ;)

As I mentioned in the earlier post above, your own physical characteristics will play as much a roll in what is comfortable as any other factor. We have seen many instruments for sale on this Forum due to the owner not being comfortable with a neck width that was a mere 1/32 of an inch too wide/narrow!

I have a friend that has a mid 50's D-18 that he adores. He should, it is an exceptional sounding guitar. It has a very sharp "V" profile neck that I can not play for more than a few minutes. It is one of the only guitars that I have trouble with, my guitar necks range in width from 1 5/8 to 2 1/16 (and every one a different neck profile) and I can switch between them with no discomfort.

Sometimes it is just one little spec. that pushes your comfort level on/off

[rpg51]

Yea, I am still trying to figure out what I like and what I don't like.  I know this, I don't like those Martin V necks.  I don't have long thin fingers and I don't like extremely thick or wide necks.  I'm going to give a Larrivee 1 3/4 wide OM neck a try. We'll see.  I think it will be fine as long as I get it set up fairly low - at least at first.  

[Hoser Rob]

Ronmac's list, plus the stiffness of the top and neck.  They actually give somewhat when you're fretting, and less stiff components will make the guitar feel softer.  Conversely inlaying graphite into the neck will make it feel stiffer.

I also think that low action compromises dynamic range and tone, and I know a bunch of players who prefer high action for that reason.  The best player I know around here uses big strings and really high action on a Grit Laskin (a magnificent guitar ... pant, pant) and most of his students can't even play it, it's so stiff.  Myself I think a lot of otherwise nice guitars ship with too low action, like Seagulls (I have one and like it a lot but I'm going to put in a new taller saddle) and many others.  If you want to get a good sound you have to get the strings vibrating a bit, don't you?

I saw a comment about a Larrivee whose action got stiffer over a couple of years ... that's totally normal.  Guitars settle a bit with all that tension.