Torrefied Guitar Tops

[William2]

Are torrefied guitar tops less likely to crack? I assume they are dried out, but does that mean they are less likely to absorb moisture? Are there disadvantages to torrefying?  I just bought a guitar with a torrefied top.

[Queequeg]

I believe that this is true- less likely to crack from low humidity, however probably more likely to crack from bumps and/or drops because that wood becomes brittle through the baking process.
What did you get, William?
Let us know what you think.

[William2]

I picked up an Eastman E-20DL. I wanted an instrument with an Adirondack top. I was initially going to get an all-mahogany instrument. I've had all hogs before but never ended up playing them as much as a spruce topped instrument. I like the clarity but miss the overtones. My dealer handles Larrivee, Eastman and others. But he really liked this E-20D for its long sustain. I had been thinking about something smaller but then I thought why? I like big guitars with standard scale. I was looking at the Furch Vintage 2 and 3 which he has also has in left hand. I love that finish on the Vintage line. And I love the balance over the entire range of the instrument. So, Dave sent me and audio of both instruments titled Eastman vs Furch. After recording one of the instruments, he said "and now instrument 2." I told him I like the full round tones of the first instrument and the clear balanced sound of the second. He said "well, I thought you wanted a different top". So, he wasn't trying to trick me, and I did want an Adi top, so I got the first instrument. It does have a nice sustain but so does my Larrivee D-40R which I've played for 6 years. I would say there is some sort of snap to the attack that is punchier than a spruce top. So, this is different and I like the overtones of the Adi / rosewood combination which will work well with what my repertoire is. Viewing recent reviews of Eastman, they impressed me by their attention to detail (see the recent Driftwood Guitar review of the cheapest Eastman model). The instrument seems lighter than my earlier instruments I had from Eastman. The E-20D weighs the same as my Larrivee D-40R. My early Eastman E-00R seemed so heavy for a small instrument but I liked the Adi top it had. Well, all Eastman's have this torrefied top now and I was just wondering if they held up better from cracking. Not that I worry, I keep ev3erything in a controlled environment. This might be the last guitar. I'm getting too old to keep doing this or waiting for something.  Dave did tell me he thought I made the right choice between Furch and Eastman. That Furch would have been too much like what I currently have.

[B0WIE]

 It may, but I wouldn't consider that a reason to buy a baked top unless you're traveling. If you have humidity issues it's going to show up in other ways too. As was mentioned, it's very brittle so be careful not to bump it or drop a tool on it.
The process was designed for things like decks and patio furniture. It was initially sold to the guitar market with the idea that it will give you the sound of an aged guitar. It doesn't really do that because that's not how wood ages. It does sound different but there's no consensus on it being better or worse. The guitar still has to go through the process of the woods relaxing into their new form.

[William2]

I actually prefer the looks of a non-torrefied top. Everything Eastman makes now is torrefied. I agree with your sound analysis.

[Queequeg]

It may, but I wouldn't consider that a reason to buy a baked top unless you're traveling. If you have humidity issues it's going to show up in other ways too. As was mentioned, it's very brittle so be careful not to bump it or drop a tool on it.
The process was designed for things like decks and patio furniture. It was initially sold to the guitar market with the idea that it will give you the sound of an aged guitar. It doesn't really do that because that's not how wood ages. It does sound different but there's no consensus on it being better or worse. The guitar still has to go through the process of the woods relaxing into their new form.

But we do know that wood dries as it ages, so in that sense, yes, it mimics an older guitar.
Think about the sound of a guitar as it dries from lack of proper care with respect to the humidity.
Many people have reported that their guitar actually sounded better...
right up to the point when it cracked and split along the top seam just below the bridge. Why? Because it dried out.
Conversely, when exposed to high humidity conditions, the guitar sounds muddy or muffled.

[B0WIE]

Well, wood will lose it's capacity to hold moisture.
Here's what I was referring to though; the reason torrefied spruce is not like aged spruce is because of what happens to the cellular structure and resins. In naturally aged wood, they oxidize, polymerize, and harden over decades. However, the torrefaction process converts them in a more volatile way that's partially destructive. This is why it has great rigidity, but poor elasticity compared to naturally aged wood, which becomes reinforced by the slowly converting resins.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm bashing it because it's been proven to make quality guitar tops when it's done right. I have no problem with it other then the way it was marketed to the guitar buying public.

[Queequeg]

Well, wood will lose it's capacity to hold moisture.
Here's what I was referring to though; the reason torrefied spruce is not like aged spruce is because of what happens to the cellular structure and resins. In naturally aged wood, they oxidize, polymerize, and harden over decades. However, the torrefaction process converts them in a more volatile way that's partially destructive. This is why it has great rigidity, but poor elasticity compared to naturally aged wood, which becomes reinforced by the slowly converting resins.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm bashing it because it's been proven to make quality guitar tops when it's done right. I have no problem with it other then the way it was marketed to the guitar buying public.

And I am not saying that it is the same as a 75 year old guitar.
But here's what the experts have to say about the process and the results:

Dimensional Stability: The heat burns away moisture-absorbing sugars and starches, meaning the wood shrinks, swells, and warps significantly less when exposed to humidity.
-Taylor Guitars

Improved Resonance (for Instruments): In guitar and violin making, torrefied "tonewood" mimics wood that has aged for decades. It becomes stiffer, lighter, and more responsive, producing a louder, "played-in" sound.
-Pre-war Guitars Company

Darker Color: The wood caramelizes, taking on a rich, uniform color (often honey to dark brown) that goes all the way through the board.
-Highland Hardwood

Increased Brittleness: As a trade-off for its stiffness and stability, torrefied wood becomes slightly more brittle, meaning you should pre-drill holes for fasteners.
-Koetter Woodworking

[B0WIE]

Not sure if that was anything meant for me to reply to or if it was meant for the general topic. It's a subject I've been learning about for a while now so I'm very familiar with the pros and cons. I was initially excited but I've since played some guitars that use it and it wasn't something I cared for. Not that it was bad, they just didn't sound or feel like old guitars and the look was not a positive for me. Plus, my favorite builders generally don't use it very often.

[teh]

This has been an interesting topic to read.

While I have not played a guitar with a torrified top, I would be curious to know how a new torrified topped guitar would stack up against the natural aging of my 50 year old Sitka topped Martin D-35 or my 22 year old Sitka topped Larrivee parlor. I watched an interesting interview with George Gruhn yesterday where he talked about vintage as well as relic'd guitars but no discussion on torrified tops. After listening to him though, I would be more inclined to invest $25,000 into vintage guitars than investing in cryptocurrency or bitcoin.

On an unrelated note, I recently bought a Violet Series, no frills Furch Grand Auditorium with an Englemann Spruce Top, EIR back and sides, Venetian cutaway and soft V neck profile. The tone on this $1,300 solid wood guitar is incredible but if I were to rank my top three guitars based solely on comfortable neck profiles, they would land as follows:

1) Larrivee 12 fret 00-24 with a 1 & 3/4" neck,  24.75" scale

2) Larrivee Forum VI 12 fret LSV-03 with a 1 & 3/4" neck, 25.5" scale

3) Two way tie: Martin 14 fret OM-35, 25.4" scale and Martin 12 fret Custom Shop 000, 24.9" scale; both have 1 & 3/4" low profile necks.

All four guitars have scalloped bracing, the Larrivees are both Satin Finish and the Martins are Gloss Finish. YMMV on preferences regarding torrified vs natural aged tops, bracing patterns, neck profiles, scale length and finishes.

[Queequeg]

This has been an interesting topic to read.

While I have not played a guitar with a torrified top, I would be curious to know how a new torrified topped guitar would stack up against the natural aging of my 50 year old Sitka topped Martin D-35 or my 22 year old Sitka topped Larrivee parlor. I watched an interesting interview with George Gruhn yesterday where he talked about vintage as well as relic'd guitars but no discussion on torrified tops. After listening to him though, I would be more inclined to invest $25,000 into vintage guitars than investing in cryptocurrency or bitcoin.

On an unrelated note, I recently bought a Violet Series, no frills Furch Grand Auditorium with an Englemann Spruce Top, EIR back and sides, Venetian cutaway and soft V neck profile. The tone on this $1,300 solid wood guitar is incredible but if I were to rank my top three guitars based solely on comfortable neck profiles, they would land as follows:

1) Larrivee 12 fret 00-24 with a 1 & 3/4" neck,  24.75" scale

2) Larrivee Forum VI 12 fret LSV-03 with a 1 & 3/4" neck, 25.5" scale

3) Two way tie: Martin 14 fret OM-35, 25.4" scale and Martin 12 fret Custom Shop 000, 24.9" scale; both have 1 & 3/4" low profile necks.

All four guitars have scalloped bracing, the Larrivees are both Satin Finish and the Martins are Gloss Finish. YMMV on preferences regarding torrified vs natural aged tops, bracing patterns, neck profiles, scale length and finishes.

Thank you, teh.
I have to state at the start that I'm not here as a cheerleader for torrefied tops. I do not own one.

But regarding your curiosity highlighted above in bold type, I am suggesting the best fair test is to compare two new guitars, same make and model, one with and one w/o the torrefied spruce top.
Then, and only then will we hear the value (or lack thereof) of the process.

I happen to like Collings guitars quite a bit, and currently have as many of these as I do Larrivées.
Collings offers an optional torrefied upgrade on their guitars and their MT mandolins.
The baked top upgrade cost is $300-$400 for Sitka and $400-$600 for Adirondack.

If I wasn't 1300 miles away, I would drive over there and test it myself.