OM-02 Neck Reset

[Gar_206]

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Hello All,
First post here. I would like to get your opinions, please, on a neck reset for a 2019, OM-02. It's a 4th generation with the hybrid, scalloped asymmetrical or Legacy bracing. I bought it used and it came without a case. I am guessing that is a contributing factor to the need for a neck reset only 7 years after the guitar was manufactured. Otherwise, the guitar looks new. I am assuming it's been played very little. The tone is nice with a rumbling bass, perhaps due to the Legacy bracing, but the volume seems a bit muted. I'm assuming that's at least partially due to the insufficient break angle of the strings at the saddle, but also could be due to the guitar not being played.

Any OM-02 owners (or if you've played one) think muted is a characteristic of this model or might I expect more volume with a neck reset? Would you consider resetting the neck a worthwhile investment on an entry level model such as the OM-02? I cannot afford a new Larrivee at this point or even a somewhat comparable new guitar. In other words, buying another used guitar might put me in the same position I'm in now.

I appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

Thank you!

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[Rockysdad]

Did you take a 18'-24' straight edge and lay it along the fretboard? does that edge lay below the top edge of the bridge?
Are the strings 1/2" above the soundboard at the bridge?

How tall is the saddle?

More details please.

[Gar_206]

The straight edge hits below the bridge. The strings are about 1/2" above the top at the bridge and the action is still reasonable but not ideal. The shop evaluating the guitar said the saddle is almost as low as it can go. I think 3/64ths. Thank you.

[StringPicker6]

Welcome, and thanks for the donuts!

Sorry your wonderful purchase came without a case... it may be a humidity issue. Wiser members will chime in, but perhaps your OM can be saved by some re-humidificafion? Take it in the bathroom and run the shower hot to get it steamy in the bathroom, and you might see some positive results. However, a good guitar tech will offer some educated answers.

[B0WIE]

Welcome to the forum! Careful what you read online as you have have picked up some misconceptions. The need for a neck reset isn't likely to happen from not being in a case, and a neck reset isn't likely to change the inherent tone a lot. It's more of a playability thing. In most cases, it's the body around the shoulders flexing in from stress that causes the neck to pitch up. If it has come up early, there may be a defect in the wood. Or, the wood or glue joint could have warped from being kept in an environment that's not healthy for an acoustic. Such things can also cause the tone to suffer, especially if the braces were compromised.

If you have a straight edge that's at least 18" (the problem with a 12" rule is that it is too affected by the end of the fretboard, which is typically not flat) you can lay it over the fingerboard and see where it lands on the bridge. Usually, it will be somewhere near the top of the bridge (not saddle). But, it won't always be as bridges can vary, frets and fretboards aren't always flat, etc. If you can post pics of this straight-edge measurement, I can give you a much better idea if you might look into a neck reset. The standard reply would be "take it to a tech" but these days there's a lot of shoddy work being done and in this economy there seems to be a lot of people who need the work so they will gladly reset it, whether it needs it or not. There's a good tech on the forum here (Rob) who has worked on many Larrivees and I'm sure he'd be glad to chime in.

EDIT; I see some other posts came in while I was typing made my post. I'd definitely need pics to add more input. A couple of the bridge area and one of the neck joint.
Also, please fret at the 1st and 12th frets and tap on the string between them. Do you hear/feel the string having a little gap? A big gap? Or, is it laying flat against all the frets?

[StringPicker6]

Here is also a great resource, the care and maintenance info on the company website:

https://www.larrivee.com/care-maintenance

[Gar_206]

Hi again, all, and thank you for your replies. Unfortunately, I cannot provide pictures because the guitar is at the tech--a very reputable shop that is definitely not trying to talk me into a neck reset. They did a free evaluation. Other than a few uneven frets, everything else seems in good condition, though it would be difficult to tell if the wood was compromised like Bowie mentioned above. The tech was impressed with the tone of the guitar and also suggested some stopgap measures, but indicated that a reset will be necessary on the near horizon.

I guess the options are: Abandon the guitar (or do nothing) or sink money into it and hope it helps.

I just wonder if an entry level model is worth the investment?

Thank you.

[B0WIE]

I would expect them to be able to give an idea of what went wrong. This is definitely not a normal thing and they would hopefully at least have a guess at what failed. Especially if they're proposing a reset.

If it's playable, maybe consider selling it as-is for a fair price, being sure to state that the saddle is low and the guitar may need work in the future. Some buyers don't mind this if they can get a good price. The reason I don't recommend keeping it is it sounds like you aren't in love with the tone to begin with. A reset is unlikely to change that as it has nothing to do with resonance. Larrivees generally don't sound muffled and, if anything, the brand is known for articulation.

[Gar_206]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Bowie. I'm kind of the buyer you mentioned who got a good deal and will need to put some money into the guitar. I was just hoping not to need a reset. I do like the tone (and feel) of the guitar. The articulation is really good too. In addition, as I mentioned above, the bass has a nice rumble as one might expect with the Legacy bracing. I just think the guitar sounds a bit muted or quiet. Perhaps it didn't get played much by the previous owner and hasn't really opened up yet. Of note: The tech said that several of the staff at the shop played it and all raved about the tone and resonance. He said a colleague said I should get a dreadnought if I don't think the OM is loud enough! Just to check, I recently put a taller saddle in, and though the action was way too high, the guitar was a bit louder. That's why I decided to bring it into the shop. There's almost no break angle with the current setup. Regarding causes, the tech believes it's probably environmental like you mentioned above, but he really isn't sure. He also doesn't think there are any other issues with the guitar. I will definitely ask about possible causes again though. The tech also said he thinks the reset could wait a bit longer. It's a free evaluation, so I could delay and bring it back at a later point. However, he did say the current setup or the next would likely be the last adjustment before a reset. I just wonder if whatever the issue is could become significantly worse if I wait on the reset (since something failed (likely in response to mistreatment/improper care) after only 7 years)? I was just wondering if doing a neck reset on an OM-02 makes sense. Based on the impressions of the shop's staff, it sounds like it makes sense.

I appreciate your and everyone's thoughts.

[jpmist]

I'll add my 2¢ here, though with inflation it's more likely only a penny. Rereading the good info here, no one mentioned the option of shaving the bridge saddle. Likely because it's irreversable and has the theoretical chance of changing the tone due to reduced mass on the soundboard . . .

I stumbled on an excellent luthier site that covers the pros and cons of doing this repair. https://calicoguitarworks.com/planing-a-bridge-restoring-playability-when-a-neck-reset-isnt-an-option/

I had this frustrating issue once and ended up ramping the peg holes a bit with just a coping saw blade which was a simple attempt to increase the break angle, but can't say it changed anything. Never bonded to it's tone so out the door it went. I hesitate to also add that it had a high angle direct from the factory. That's the way it goes sometimes . . .

Lastly, in the hopes that your guitar might still be under humidity stress, wouldn't it be prudent to wait a month or two to see if the neck moved any?

Best of luck!

[mike in lytle]

http://www.larriveeforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=37064

The above is a good thread on bridge profiling.
The second post is from Matt Larrivee.
I am just adding it as reference, since John brought it up to widen the conversation.
Larrivee also sells replacement bridges in various heights.
Mike

[Queequeg]

I'll add my 2¢ here, though with inflation it's more likely only a penny. Rereading the good info here, no one mentioned the option of shaving the bridge saddle. Likely because it's irreversable and has the theoretical chance of changing the tone due to reduced mass on the soundboard . . .

I stumbled on an excellent luthier site that covers the pros and cons of doing this repair. https://calicoguitarworks.com/planing-a-bridge-restoring-playability-when-a-neck-reset-isnt-an-option/

I had this frustrating issue once and ended up ramping the peg holes a bit with just a coping saw blade which was a simple attempt to increase the break angle, but can't say it changed anything. Never bonded to it's tone so out the door it went. I hesitate to also add that it had a high angle direct from the factory. That's the way it goes sometimes . . .

Lastly, in the hopes that your guitar might still be under humidity stress, wouldn't it be prudent to wait a month or two to see if the neck moved any?

Best of luck!

Actually, the OP does reference the saddle, which indicated to me that this really wasn't an option.
What he says is, "insufficient break angle of the strings at the saddle" which would indicate to me there's not much saddle left.

[jpmist]

Thanks Mike for adding the link!

"Our bridge starts off at around 10.5mm and you can safely take the bridge as low as 7.0mm with no loss in tone or stability."

Hmmm, had I known that I might have had that done, under warranty perhaps. And good to hear him state no change of tone due to the lightened mass on the soundboard.

A 2-3mm drop may well have fixed the high action on mine, but it wasn't unacceptably high, plus I play with a capo 95% of the time which lowers the strings where I like it. The hog-top didn't speak to me so I'd have still sold it off . . .

[jpmist]

Actually, the OP does reference the saddle, which indicated to me that this really wasn't an option.
What he says is, "insufficient break angle of the strings at the saddle" which would indicate to me there's not much saddle left.

My clumsy way with words, I was referencing the bridge . . .

[StringPicker6]

My gut still makes me feel that it's a humidity issue.  Larrivees are not known for early neck resets. They are built to last 100 years (in a good way).

[B0WIE]

 Sanding the bridge is a popular remedy and certainly less expensive, initially. The only thing I'll add is that, while it's a good fix for a 30+ year old instrument that has shifted over time, and may put off a neck reset for another 10+ years, I'd be concerned about temp fixes on such a new guitar. Being that the wood has shifted so quickly, you may end up paying to have the bride profiled, and then paying again in the next few years to have a new bridge installed after you have the neck reset.
One choice isn't necessarily right or wrong, it's just a matter of gambling on whether the movement has stopped or not. It's only a decision you can make.

[Gar_206]

Thanks, all, for your ideas and continuing this discussion. Should this thread be moved to the Technical Board?

I did see that bridge discussion with Matt Larrivee. Also, the Calico Guitars site has great info.

The tech at the shop doesn't believe there is enough bridge to shave without opening up a different can of worms (similar to what Bowie mentioned above). He doesn't recommend ramping either because he doesn't think it's a long-term solution. The saddle is really low. I believe he said 3/64s. According to the tech, the current adjustment might be the last one or maybe it'll get one more depending on how much movement there is in the near term. The shop has a great reputation. I feel very confident in their recommendations.

Also, I live in the Pacific Northwest, so humidity issues aren't as problematic as other regions. However, the previous owner had the guitar in the Northeast US. I've owned the guitar for about a year, so any acclimation to the environment probably already occurred.

What seems likely is that the previous owner in some way exposed the guitar to extreme conditions. It seems much less likely, based on Larrivee's reputation, that there's a manufacturing issue. The guitar is otherwise flawless and so solidly built. Something had to have happened with how the previous owner cared for it.

What I'm wondering: If a neck reset is done, can I expect the guitar to perform well going forward? The tech at the shop believes so. A reset is much cheaper than a new guitar. I like the guitar. It's my best guitar and will be my best guitar for the foreseeable future. Thanks everyone.

[B0WIE]

What seems likely is that the previous owner in some way exposed the guitar to extreme conditions. It seems much less likely, based on Larrivee's reputation, that there's a manufacturing issue. The guitar is otherwise flawless and so solidly built. Something had to have happened with how the previous owner cared for it.

What I'm wondering: If a neck reset is done, can I expect the guitar to perform well going forward? The tech at the shop believes so. A reset is much cheaper than a new guitar. I like the guitar. It's my best guitar and will be my best guitar for the foreseeable future. Thanks everyone.

I don't want to be a dominant voice here, so everyone please feel free to chime in and contradict. I think a pool of thought is always healthy. That said, I'll share two scenarios I've personally seen.

 One is that a guitar is exposed to too much humidity. This is not as obvious as when a guitar dries out (the more common sort of damage) because it doesn't leave cracks and a sunken in top. Over humidification can cause the wood to soften and move in the direction of stress (the build stress). When combined with warmth, both the wood and glue may move, causing any number of issues including the neck possibly folding inward, braces to shifting or becoming unglued. If this was the case, then a a neck reset should get things in order. Signs of over humidification are usually most obvious in metal hardware like tuners and strap buttons. When I'm shopping for a guitar, I avoid instruments with corroded hardware because I've found some of these to have internal damage from over hunidification.

 The other scenario is unavoidable when dealing with organic materials like wood. You can choose the best woods and they may still do odd things after they are cut and glued up. Even when they are dried for decades, just cutting and thinning them changes the stresses and can cause warping. The fibers have grown to counter the weight and stress of a tree, take away the tree and those fibers are still pushing and pulling. I have a very expensive guitar that was made in the last few years and, within a 2 years of being built, the fretboard extension over the body developed a subtle ramp. The builders are master luthiers and the frets and fret board were given the full computerized PLEC treatment. The computer literally scanned it and made it geometrically perfect to a fraction of an inch. But... woods can move. They can crack, they can do all sorts of things. So, if you were to get the reset, absolutely impress upon the tech that you want them to first evaluate the structural integrity of the woods that meet at the neck joint (the shoulders and upper-back) to make sure they aren't building a house on sand. If there's no signs of weakness or shifting, then a reset should hold.

[gtrplayer]

I've owned at least 12 Larrivees through the years.  Two Larrivees had neck issues (12 fret hump) where the guitar would buzz at the 12th fret and beyond.  I think one dried out at some point prior to my purchase.  Larrivee repaired it by sanding down the fret board and saddle.  To most it would seem that a neck reset was in order however neck resets are time consuming and more expensive.  Could this be your problem and would re-humidifying help?

BTW the guitar was fine after Larrivee repair.

[Gar_206]

gtrplayer,
Larrivee repaired a guitar you bought second-hand? You sent it to them? Thanks.