Campfire guitar size

[hman0217]

So here's what i realized last weekend: by beloved 00-40, whom I spend many an intimate hour picking on the couch, is very poor in cutting through the mix in a campfire setting with hand drums and singing and such.  Though I'm primarily into the solo finger picking, I do want the flexibility to play in around a circle and I am just unsure which way to go to cut through the mix better: do I go to an 0 ora T to cut through with my trebles more? Or do I go to the SD and lay down that heavier bass? Or course flat picking would do the trick, but let's just say what guitar would you go with to stand out? Or do I just get a banjitar?

[hman0217]

And I should clarify: not as a one quiver guitar that fits the couch playing superbly but in addition to...

[B0WIE]

Body size influences both bass and overall volume. If your 0 or T have no competition in the musical arrangement, they will cut through nicely. But, that sort of organization doesn't really happen in a campfire setting so a good ol' dread can always be relied on. You mentioned SD and I'm a huge fan. I find a traditional 14-fret dread is better for the "cut", while a 12 fret SD is the master for filling space (like a piano) so the vocal can ride on top. However, if you already have an SD, it should be more than good enough if you just play close to the bridge.

It's a fun sort of "dilemma" to think about. When it comes to cutting through in the trebles, the thing I'll caution is that it may be unpleasant for the person across from you. When we play in an open area, we don't get trebles bouncing back at us like we do in a room. We mostly hear the low-end and feel the vibration. This can cause us to push for a more aggressive, biting sound, and whoever or whatever is on the projecting end of the guitar will hear something much brighter than what we're hearing as we play. I've learned this the hard way with people giving me a sour look as my "awesome tone" grates their ear drums.

[hman0217]

Body size influences both bass and overall volume. If your 0 or T have no competition in the musical arrangement, they will cut through nicely. But, that sort of organization doesn't really happen in a campfire setting so a good ol' dread can always be relied on. You mentioned SD and I'm a huge fan. I find a traditional 14-fret dread is better for the "cut", while a 12 fret SD is the master for filling space (like a piano) so the vocal can ride on top. However, if you already have an SD, it should be more than good enough if you just play close to the bridge.

It's a fun sort of "dilemma" to think about. When it comes to cutting through in the trebles, the thing I'll caution is that it may be unpleasant for the person across from you. When we play in an open area, we don't get trebles bouncing back at us like we do in a room. We mostly hear the low-end and feel the vibration. This can cause us to push for a more aggressive, biting sound, and whoever or whatever is on the projecting end of the guitar will hear something much brighter than what we're hearing as we play. I've learned this the hard way with people giving me a sour look as my "awesome tone" grates their ear drums.

Thanks. I do hear you on the dreads. I just fear my hands won't like going back to the narrower nut. Maybe that fear is unfounded ...

[StringPicker6]

I agree with what Bowie said. A guitar can sound vastly different between what you the player hears, and what the person in front of your guitar hears.

[teh]

As Bowie suggested, a good dreadnought or SD would be a good choice for a "campfire" guitar. You could also try an L body or a jumbo. Using medium gauge strings and setting the guitar up to tune it down one or two steps will also help but others here can comment on whether that makes sense. Using a larger bodied guitar to be heard over other instruments will also take up more space.

If you're looking for a 1 & 3/4" (or wider) neck, Larrivee's 12 fret SD-24 and 14 fret L-24 (both short scale) or their J-03 (Jumbo) all have that neck width. My three large body guitars include a Martin D-35, an Alvarez Artist and a Larrivee 12 string LV-03. Each of them also have a 14 fret neck. For 27 years, my D-35 was my only good guitar and it went everywhere with me including camping trips and festivals and it has the battle scars to prove it. Five years ago, I paid $200 for the Alvarez and I added medium gauge strings and keep it tuned down a whole step. Other options include using a resonator guitar or a six-string banjo to be heard and both will (or should) keep wildlife away from your campsite.

In closing, my D-35 has a 1 & 11/16" neck whilst the Alvarez has a 1 & 12/16" (aka 1 & 3/4") neck. I find that neck profile is more important than neck width. YMMV.

[Koamon]

How about this comparison of body sizes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USerh03mWpI

[jpmist]

my beloved 00-40, whom I spend many an intimate hour picking on the couch, is very poor in cutting through the mix in a campfire setting with hand drums and singing and such.
- do I go to an 0 ora T to cut through with my trebles more? Or
- do I go to the SD and lay down that heavier bass?

My take here is that what is keeping your OO from cutting through the mix is the fact that it's a 12 fret. It's increased bass and midrange is perhaps holding back your overall perception of its output making it sound like the treble isn't ringing out enough. In other words, the wide range of tones you enjoy in your living room, might not work in competition with campfire gits where you want to hear your treble ring out over the competition.

My hunch in going to a smaller parlor is you'll end up with a quieter guitar simply due to it's lessor body volume. Going to a 12-fret SD compounds the problem with even more bass and midrange in competition with it's trebles. I hate to use the word "muddies" here, but it's close. The lack of crispness with a larger 12 fret body is why two OOO passed thru my hands and didn't take.

So perhaps a compromise is a 14 fret OO or "parlor" of which there are many out there as most brands hate to make small bodied 12 frets but want to offer something smaller than an OM.

Here's an inexpensive campfire Fender pick I'd gamble on. Fenders are hit and miss for me, but when they're good they're perfectly fine instruments - https://www.fender.com/products/cp-60s-parlor?variant=45940659093726

The only Larrivee OO 14 I've heard of was a special order . . .

[hman0217]

My hunch in going to a smaller parlor is you'll end up with a quieter guitar simply due to it's lessor body volume....

So perhaps a compromise is a 14 fret OO or "parlor" of which there are many out there as most brands hate to make small bodied 12 frets but want to offer something smaller than an OM.

Thanks for the input. So, do I interpret this as wanting the quieter guitar so long as the bass and mids don't overpower the treble?

I guess that's where it's players choice, seeing as others seem to have chimed in more in favor of bass, saying that you actually don't want to go crazy with your trebles. Playing style and preference do come into play or course.

But for fun, the other not-too-precious guitar that fits your bill that I've considered as a small beater is the alvarez delta delite, which has my preferred 1-3/4 nut width

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DeltaDeLite--alvarez-delta-delite-mini-acoustic-guitar-shadowburst

Short scale too, good for those big jumps in fretting with the gypsy scales.

[jpmist]

Thanks for the input. So, do I interpret this as wanting the quieter guitar so long as the bass and mids don't overpower the treble?

Yikes, no I think we got terminology mixed up. A parlor to me is much smaller than an OO as per Larrivee's definition of those models. Their OO model measures at

· Lower Bout: 14"· Upper Bout: 10" · Waist: 8.25"· Depth: 4"
· Scale Length: 25.5", 12 fret to body · Nut Width: 1 & 3/4"" . Length 19-1/8"

Which is a bit bigger than the Alvarez "parlor" you cited. So, no, you don't want a quieter brighter smaller guitar cause you still wont hear it around that campfire. My suggestion was a standard OO size 14 fret which will have the brightness that should cut thru the campfire mix.

Since I have it in front of me, I'll throw in Larrivee's specs for their parlor and you'll see the difference. I've not had much luck with the few Parlors I've tried. This seems to be pretty close to what I found on your Alvarez

Parlor
· Lower Bout: 13.25"· Upper Bout: 9.5"· Waist: 7.75"· Depth: (3.5") or (3-7/8),(4-1/8")
· Scale Length: 24"· Nut Width: 1 & 3/4" · Fretboard Radius: Compound (17" to 21")

I guess that's where it's players choice, seeing as others seem to have chimed in more in favor of bass, saying that you actually don't want to go crazy with your trebles. Playing style and preference do come into play or course.

To be clear, the context of where you'll play it is what's driving my recommendation for a OO 14 fret. In a studio or my living room in front of my GarageBand mics I wouldn't be happy at all with it's lack of midrange and bottom end compared to my OO 12 frets. But competing with OMs and Dreads around a campfire, I figure you'd have a good chance of hearing yourself strumming a bright 14 fret OO.