Bridge Question

[William2]

Does the type of wood used for the bridge make a difference in sound? I was watching a demo of the new Taylor
Gold label 814e on Eddie's Guitars. The instrument uses Honduran Rosewood for the back and sides. It also uses Honduran rosewood for the bridge. The demonstrator said this is an incredibly resonant wood often used in marimba bars. He added it doesn't have the dampening effect of and ebony bridge. Is rosewood a better material for the bridge? I have to say I've never really liked the Taylor sound, but this 814 with its new fan V bracing does sound nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwlY8WHKzw0

[B0WIE]

Rosewood and ebony can make excellent bridges. Referring to the "damping factor" of ebony in relation to what a bridge does hurts my brain. The bridge is part of a sandwich that includes several materials (saddle, guitar top, bridge plate, glue). That area is going to be very stiff because of the layered materials. The part that transmits much of the sound (bottom of the saddle slot) is quite thin and trapped in that sandwich. If going from ebony to rosewood here is meaningful then going from a Martin-style  bridge to a pyramid would certainly have a massive impact due to the significant change in overall mass. Yet, it doesn't seem to.

 The reason a lot of people are jaded toward Taylor marketing is that, when Taylor comes up with something, it's always the greatest thing that has ever been done and everything else becomes old tech. I haven't seen a master luthier interview where they talked about the problem with ebony bridges. Just Taylor, coincidentally while they are selling something. The marimba thing is funny because mahogany, fiberglass, and aluminum are also used in high quality marimbas. With acoustic guitars, the magic doesn't happen because one thing is extremely ____ (hard, resonant, etc). It's because the combined things balance out.

Anyhow, that turned into a rant quite quickly. And, I will say that I love the way rosewood bridges look! The stripey quality is much more interesting than black. But, I don't believe my rosewood bridges sound any better than ebony. Not even the brazilian rosewood ones.

[William2]

Thank you, Mr. BOWIE.

[Koamon]

Another dynamic to the guitar's tone due to the type of wood for the bridge, is the type of wood for the bridge plate inside the body underneath the bridge. Rosewood is commonly used in modern construction but maple was used early at least on by Martin in the prewar days. I found out when I purchased a  Martin D 3-18 GOM in 1991. To capture the prewar era, it touted a maple bridge plate, scalloped bracing and the older advanced X brace. Best Martin I ever played until I replaced it for my Larrivee C10 Koa.

[Koamon]

After my last post, out of curiosity, I inspected the interior bridge plates of my 3 Larrivees. I never thought about it before so I looked under the hood. What I found out is that that my 000-40MT all mahogany,, similar to the traditional Martin bracing has a rosewood bridge plate. My traditional Larrivee C10K and DV10k has apparently maple bridge plates. FWIW, it probably lends to their unique tones that I always took for granted, but now I know.

[teh]

Koamon

One of the best things about this forum is reading about the experiences of other members.

It appears that you really like koa and I am interested in hearing about your experience. I feel the same way about mahogany although I have to give the edge to koa on looks and wood grain. I also noticed that you have L.R. Baggs pickups in all three of your guitars and I'd be interested in your thoughts about them. Three of my Larrivee acoustics also have L.R. Baggs pickups installed  (I-Beam, Anthem Dual Source and an Anthem SL). While not the same as a microphone, I have found that each of these pickups produce a clear, amplified acoustic tone.

When Martin offered the D 3-18 in 1991, my income was being diverted to three growing boys. I always wanted a Martin with a three piece mahogany back and sides and they only made 78 of the D 3-18 models so they went fast but I'm glad to read about someone who actually owned one. In 2015, I bit the bullet and ordered a 000 with a three piece mahogany back and sides, scalloped bracing and a 12 fret neck from the Custom Shop and ended up with a one of a kind guitar. It also led me to find two more 12 fret guitars, both Larrivees.

[Koamon]

Hi teh,
Thx for your kind words. Sine you asked for it, this is my tone quest. I started out with a Univox Hummingbird knockoff in 1967 with a Beatles and Dylan music book In 1969 after CSN&Y played at Woodstock, they became my acoustic band. They all sported Martin guitars, so not really knowing anything, I wanted one as well. Stills used a D-35 so that is what I wanted. Martin had just rereleased the D-45 and they were about $1,200. D18s were $375, D-28 $475 and a D-35 was just over $500. What teenager could afford that kind of money. That was a lot of coin back then. In 1971 at a music store in SF had all four of those Martins hanging side by side with the corresponding Takamine "lawsuit" copies. Playing them all side by side, they were close, really close so I figured I could afford a Takamine at a fraction of the cost but by the time I could afford one they were litigated off the market so I settled for a Sigma. By the 80's I had the income to afford a Martin so I went shopping for a D-35. The local music store only had a HD-28 so I settled and that was my first Martin. Around then Frets Magazine just came out and I remember a George Gruhn article about the rosewood /mahogany debate and which is better.
The general wisdom was that rosewood being more expensive was a better tone wood which was a myth. Rosewood was boomy warmer with more fundamental bottom whereas mahogany was drier, balanced and articulated better from string to string. Travis picking and fingerstyle was a majority of my playing so by 1990 I began shopping for a D-18. By then Martin was producing limited series Guitar of the Month runs sporting custom appointments and prewar specs. For me, that was the pinnacle for the Martin company. So in 1991 they came out with the D3-18 GOM. It was mahogany with a three piece back like an D-35. How cool. So I ordered one from Elderly Instruments for $1450. Best Martin I ever played.

Here is a description:

Martin D3-18 Limited Edition guitar of the month May 1991. The D3-18 was the first production 3-piece back mahogany guitar made by the Martin Guitar Company. In the same style as the original prewar D-18, the D3-18 is constructed with a genuine ebony fingerboard and bridge, and the 'X' bracing has been shifted forward to a position 1" from the soundhole. The solid Sltka spruce top is finished with aging toner and hand polished lacquer gives this instrument an aged appearance similar to its vintage counterpart. The headstock bears chrome tuning machines with special buttons, delicately embossed on both sides with a Martin "M" design. The low profile mahogany neck is equipped with an adjustable truss rod. The headstock is square and tapered like the Martin guitars of the 1930's. The fingerboard is bound with tortoise color material and inlaid with a contrasting black/white inlay. Mother of pearl diamond and square position markers complete the vintage look of this guitar. The fluted edges of the ebony bridge are also Inlaid with mother of pearl diamonds. Black 'Style 21' bridge pins inlaid with white dots have been chosen to enhance the simple yet elegant front view of the D3-18. The matched mahogany wings and center wedge used to form the back of the D3-18 are tastefully accentuated with herringbone inlay. Attention to detail, even on the back of the guitar, Is a time honored tradition at the Martin Guitar Company. The D3-I8 comes with a limited edition label signed by C. F. Martin IV.  This 1991 Guitar of the Month may well be the best sounding mahogany guitar you have ever heard.

Enjoyed that guitar until UncRob turned me on to Larrivee out of Andy's Guitar where he managed. I got a mahogany LV-05. Great addition to the D3-18 until the store started getting 10 series Koa guitars. More complex than mahogany they articulated better and was more balanced than either the D3-18 or the LV-05, I subsequently off loaded all my guitars and acquired an OMV-10 Koa, a C-10 Koa, a DV10K-10 Koa and a all Koa Parlor Larrivee. I foolishly sold my OMV-10K to a friend and sold the all koa parlor to get a CA Cargo composite for traveling out West and just got the 000-40MT, a great Larry to be sure! Stick a fork in me, because I'm done. I had posted pics years ago but they disappeared with the changes in the website.

Concerning my Baggs setups, I'll post when I have more time.

[teh]

Thanks for sharing the details about your entry into the world of guitars. Here's mine.

I started out with an inexpensive 0 sized guitar in 1968 and I still have it. I  bought my first Martin, a new D-35 with a shaded top, at Medley Music in Bryn Mawr, PA in early 1977 and paid $600 for it. There is something to be said about playing a guitar that is nearing the half century mark. In May 2004, a co-worker took me to Trinity Guitars in Jamestown, NY and they had five Larrivee parlor guitars in stock including two spruce/rosewood, two spruce/mahogany and a Special Edition model with a spruce top and a flamed maple back and sides. The maple parlor came home with me and included a gig bag but I immediately upgraded that to a hardshell case and the total cost was $570. I also removed the clear pick guard.

Over the past 20 years, I've added two more Martins, an OM-35 and 000, an Alvarez Artist dreadnought and three more Larrivee acoustics plus an electric Baker T Pro. I've added factory installed L.R. Baggs pickups to my Forum VI and my all mahogany 00-24. I have a Fishman Humbucking soundhole pickup to use on my acoustics without pickups. Right now, I have three of my guitars out on loan so every thing gets plenty of playing time.

[Koamon]

Teh,
I enjoyed reading your guitar journey! I was jealous to see you first Martin was a D-35. I wasn't able to satisfy my D-35 itch until I acquired my D3-18.
Regarding my stereo Ibeam/Crown GLM 200 mic, it first started out as a Fishman Blender Thinline UST/ Crown GLM 200 mic setup from the 80's.  I later replaced the Thinline with an active Ibeam. I later did the same for my other Ibeam and Element loaded guitars.
Don't DYI unless you can do fine detail solder work, let a skilled repairman to do it. For me, I find that there a a cool Zen to set up and work on your own guitar. It's a tough and steep learning curve but I find it is worth the effort. Kudos to  UnclRob as he taught me everything I know.
But if you are proficient and you choose to do it:
Carefully remove the active iBeam's preamp and unscrew the shielding cap to expose the solder pads. Thread the mic wire through the cap, splice the wires. On the preamp, you will see the hot wire from the Ibeam soldered to ring pad and neutral/ground soldered to ground pad. Adjacent to them, you will see the ring and pad for a mic.
Solder the mic: Solder the positive wire from your mini-mic to the ring pad on the preamp circuit board. Solder the neutral and ground wire to the ground pad.
Use a stereo cable: Plug a stereo TRS cable into your guitar's endpin jack and plug into a dual TRS stereo preamp like a Fishman Bender, Rane AP13, K&K Trinity preamp or DTAR. Set and balance the gain levels and EQ to taste. I have mics wired to my Ibeam and Element guitars I run mine through the Blender, K&K Trinity and Rane AP13. On the used market those older preamps can be had fairly cheap. I find that I have more control balancing and EQing than with my Anthem SL. It's old school but it works for me. Not knocking the Anthem SL as it sounds great when directly plugged straight into an amp.
Any decent condenser mini mic will work, but placement can be critical so experimenting is key. My crown setup came with a supplied mini gooseneck bracket. For my other mics I Velcro them inside the soundhole. For an interesting discussion about mini mics see this old post:

http://www.museweb.com/ag/amp/imics97_99.html


Currently I run my signal through a Boss Singer Live, EV Everse 8 or Alto Uber.