Perils of Left-handed conversion: 12 string edition

[jasonchamb]

Greetings all.

So, I've been thinking about a lefty 12-string for awhile, and while I know Larrivee would gladly make me a new one for $2500, I'd like to a) spend a bit less, and b) find something with some age to it. However, finding a vintage lh 12-string is like finding... well, create your own high-difficulty analogy. So I've been eyeing a couple of relatively cheap (6-800) RH D-03-12s from 1999 and 2002.

The mechanics of the basic changes aren't too daunting to me. Bridge removal/change, saddle, nut, remove-or-don't the clear pickguard. I can do that.

My concern is the layout of the bridgepins/holes in the top. The usual layout is that the upper (high octave) string of each pair is forward on the bridge and the lower is set back:
e
  E
a
  A
d
  D
g
  G
b
  b
e
  e

So, switched to lefty, without changing the hole schematic, it would be reversed:

e
  e
b
  b
G
  g
D
  d
A
  a
E
  e

Will the reversal of the high and low octave pin placements forward or back affect the intonation? If not, then as I see it, I would need a new right-handed bridge, with the saddle channel cut at the angle for a left-handed guitar.

Have I interpreted this scenario properly, and what are my pitfalls?

[Rockysdad]

How about.    https://www.larrivee.com/shop/larrive-standard-bridge

[unclrob]

I've don a few righty to lefty Larrivee's,no 12 strings yet.The last 3 conversions I did is to leave the righty bridge including my own L10 koa from 98 and that was going from lefty to rigthy .As for the pin hole goes ther all the sam size.

[B0WIE]

As you're probably aware, 03/05/09 Larrivees are perfect candidates for lefty conversion because of their symmetrical bracing. The tone stays intact. And, many of the late 90's models have clear pick guard so the conversion is inconspicuous. Another (cheeky) bonus is that, in converting an old one, you're essentially getting a new frets as the worn spots will not affect the wound strings much and the plain strings will now be on mostly flat frets.

Couple ideas;
-I would not change the bridge. I would fill and route the current one. I believe a lefty bridge might not line-up the holes in the bridge plate the same. You don't wont to be plugging and cutting the bridge plate if you can avoid it. Re-routing may sound scary but it's not that difficult. I believe TWoodford on youtube has done the process many times in his videos as a lot of old acoustics have the saddle cut wrong.

-Also, using the same bridge means you reverse the Larrivee pin arrangement and get the thicker strings to have the better break angle. Here's what I mean; you'll notice most makers have the standard strings pinned-in close to the saddle with normal break angle. Larrivee has the opposite with a steeper break angle on the additional (thinner) 6. I personally find break angle to affect the sound of lower strings the most the so I would prefer to have it pinned out Martin/Gibson style and, if you convert the current bridge to lefty, that's exactly what you will end up with.

-No matter which bride you use, intonation will not be affected by the placement of the bridge pins, so long as the saddle is correct. Only break angle (which can affect feel and tone to a small extent) may change.

Oh, and by the way, I've been considering selling my 12-string because I just don't play 12-string more than once a year and I've got to make an effort to get my collection down. If you end up deciding on a conversion, feel free to message me.

[teh]

My first suggestion would be not to go cheap on a 12 string if you can't find a Larrivee and don't try to convert a right handed 12 string to a lefty without checking first. If you aren't happy with the guitar, selling a lefty that you converted yourself may prove to be a challenge.  I would email Larrivee's customer service team and ask them how they would brace and set up a left handed 12 string model. If you are still confident doing the conversion yourself, go for it.

I also did a google search and looked up a left handed version of a used Larrivee Jumbo 12 string (JV-05e) listed at Jerry's Lefty Guitars in FL. I'm not sure how recently it was posted or if it's still for sale but it would be worth a phone call or email to find out. If available, a jumbo Larrivee 12 string would be both rare and pretty cool but I'm not a fan of the barn door electronics on this one. I tried to post a link to this guitar but was unsuccessful.

If you do buy new, I believe that Larrivee offers any guitar they make as a left handed version. My right handed 2005 LV-03MT 12 string has a bone nut and a compensated bone saddle that was made for me and set up by my dealer in early 2006. This guitar is everything I ever wanted in a 12 string and it is ideally suited for finger picking and strumming. My guitar is also set up for light gauge strings to reduce some of the tension on the neck. When I pulled mine out of the case tonight and put my tuner on it, I only had to make minor adjustments to it. When I ordered my 12 string back in November 2005, the Larrivee LV-03 made in Vancouver came out on top against the Martin, Taylor, Guild and Yamaha 12 strings I played.

[jasonchamb]

Thanks. I'll take that under advisement

How about.    https://www.larrivee.com/shop/larrive-standard-bridge

That's kind of where I started. I was thinking about the hole configuration being reversed on the 12 LH vs the 12 RH. I thought by sticking to a RH bridge that problem would go away. Then the options remain, as Bowie noted, use the old bridge after filling and rerouting, or using a new RH bridge and requesting it either routed for a LH saddle, or unrouted and then do it myself.

[jasonchamb]

I've don a few righty to lefty Larrivee's,no 12 strings yet.The last 3 conversions I did is to leave the righty bridge including my own L10 koa from 98 and that was going from lefty to rigthy .As for the pin hole goes ther all the sam size.

Did you change the saddle angle to account for the change? Fill and reroute?

[jasonchamb]

I also did a google search and looked up a left handed version of a used Larrivee Jumbo 12 string (JV-05e) listed at Jerry's Lefty Guitars in FL. I'm not sure how recently it was posted or if it's still for sale but it would be worth a phone call or email to find out. If available, a jumbo Larrivee 12 string would be both rare and pretty cool but I'm not a fan of the barn door electronics on this one. I tried to post a link to this guitar but was unsuccessful.

If you do buy new, I believe that Larrivee offers any guitar they make as a left handed version. My right handed 2005 LV-03MT 12 string has a bone nut and a compensated bone saddle that was made for me and set up by my dealer in early 2006. This guitar is everything I ever wanted in a 12 string and it is ideally suited for finger picking and strumming. My guitar is also set up for light gauge strings to reduce some of the tension on the neck. When I pulled mine out of the case tonight and put my tuner on it, I only had to make minor adjustments to it. When I ordered my 12 string back in November 2005, the Larrivee LV-03 made in Vancouver came out on top against the Martin, Taylor, Guild and Yamaha 12 strings I played.

That guitar is not a Jerry's anymore. Its from several years ago, before he moved to TN. I emailed him the other day to see what he had on hand, but didn't find what I was looking for. I'm actually going down there next week to take a look around and see if there's anything I can't live without.

There are 2 J-03-12s available online, in RH. I thought about grabbing one of those and converting. It would be a little more investment than I might want on this project. Maybe for the future.

I know that Larrivee will make one if I ask, and it will be a good one.

[jasonchamb]

you'll notice most makers have the standard strings pinned-in close to the saddle with normal break angle. Larrivee has the opposite with a steeper break angle on the additional (thinner) 6. I personally find break angle to affect the sound of lower strings the most the so I would prefer to have it pinned out Martin/Gibson style and, if you convert the current bridge to lefty, that's exactly what you will end up with.

This is a new consideration I didn't know about. Thanks for that.

No matter which bride you use, intonation will not be affected by the placement of the bridge pins, so long as the saddle is correct.

This was my expectation, but am glad to hear it confirmed.

If and when I'm ready to dive in, I'll drop you a line to see if something can be worked out.

[unclrob]

Did you change the saddle angle to account for the change? Fill and reroute?

I made a new saddle for them but I did not change the angle.Every body sad it wouldn't play in tune and freaked when they found out I didn't change it.New righty nut on my L10.

Going to the cave before the rocks come falling down.

I'v also been a service and repair tech for 58 years.

[jasonchamb]

Interesting. Do you think that would be a problem for a 12? Obviously that simplifies the whole ordeal, if I just have to switch the nut and saddle and make action adjustments.

[unclrob]

I'm crazy ask anyone here change the nut make a saddle and do a setup and then play away

[teh]

I've never peeked under the hood of my 12 string with an inspection mirror but this thread has raised some interesting questions in my mind.

1) If a RH model can be converted to a lefty by changing the nut and saddle and modifying the bridge, does Larrivee simply build a RH model and make these changes to convert to a lefty? This obviously wouldn't work with a cutaway.

2) How do you compensate the saddle to ensure accurate intonation up the neck?

3) The old adage is that a 12 string player spends half of their time tuning. How would the wood body shape, wood choices and bracing patterns impact the tone and intonation up the neck?

For perspective, when I ordered my 12 string in 2005, I paid $1,000 using a mahogany L-03 as a base model. I added the following modifications: Mahogany top, Venetian cutaway, bone nut and an archtop case. Jim Holler added a compensated bone saddle and installed an I-Beam pickup. The best way I can describe the effect of the mahogany top is this: It brings a fullness to the 12 string sound without the jangle you sometimes hear from a spruce top.

P.S. Here's an interesting link to a website for a builder in Antietam, MD who specializes in recreating old style 12 strings. These include ladder braced versions like Leadbelly and some of the other 12 string pioneers used to play.

http://hauverguitars.com/

The website also includes a price list showing the estimated cost of setups, repairs and modifications to give you an idea of the going rates. For some strange reason, I've never stopped by this shop for a visit but I need to add that to my bucket list of places to go. I have however taken several online lessons from Tom Feldman who is featured in at least one of the videos.

[jasonchamb]

I'm crazy ask anyone here change the nut make a saddle and do a setup and then play away

I like it. Simplest solution. If I'm not satisfied, then I can tinker later.     

[unclrob]

My personal moto is KISS.After a few years working on guitars in the start I was mostley making the job more complex then they needed to be.Then I hit the KISS rule and thats when the insanity started.Now look at me

[eded]

I made a new saddle for them but I did not change the angle.Every body sad it wouldn't play in tune and freaked when they found out I didn't change it.New righty nut on my L10.

Going to the cave before the rocks come falling down.

I'v also been a service and repair tech for 58 years.

I believe it will play in relatively good tune, but if you left the angle the same and just dropped in a new saddle, it kind of says all the study and work that's been done on intonation and compensated saddles has been a waste of time over the past century and a half or so. 

I've seen conversions (6 and 12 string) and some have worked, some haven't. It seems to me a Larrivee with symmetrical bracing would be the best candidate but I think finding a guitar made to be played left handed would be the best option.

Ed

[B0WIE]

Ultimately, it comes down to what is acceptable to you and what's "close enough for rock n roll."
There's no getting around the physics that determine which pitches will be produced at certain intervals. But, we can look at the fact that Gibson was installing frets in the wrong place for decades (and still does for certain models) and realize that doing it wrong doesn't necessarily mean it's unacceptable.

I think part of the charm of the guitar is the imperfect temperament. I personally find fan fret guitars to feel odd, like playing a synthesizer. They lack that slight dissonance that makes a guitar a guitar. An instrument with an attitude. An instrument that's literally "ill tempered".

All that said, a little dissonance across 6 strings is one thing. Doing it on a 12 is going to really limit you to open chords as you won't have to go far up the neck to start hearing the sourness. Expect the low Es to feel particularly off. If you tune down (as it common with a 12 string) it will get worse as the bridge wants to be moved back.

[eded]

Ultimately, it comes down to what is acceptable to you and what's "close enough for rock n roll."
There's no getting around the physics that determine which pitches will be produced at certain intervals. But, we can look at the fact that Gibson was installing frets in the wrong place for decades (and still does for certain models) and realize that doing it wrong doesn't necessarily mean it's unacceptable.

I think part of the charm of the guitar is the imperfect temperament. I personally find fan fret guitars to feel odd, like playing a synthesizer. They lack that slight dissonance that makes a guitar a guitar. An instrument with an attitude. An instrument that's literally "ill tempered".

All that said, a little dissonance across 6 strings is one thing. Doing it on a 12 is going to really limit you to open chords as you won't have to go far up the neck to start hearing the sourness. Expect the low Es to feel particularly off. If you tune down (as it common with a 12 string) it will get worse as the bridge wants to be moved back.

I'm still waiting for the (any) guitar to be the weak point in my playing!   

Ed

[B0WIE]

I'm still waiting for the (any) guitar to be the weak point in my playing!   

Ed

I see that come up a lot but, unless it's in a professional context, I don't think we should let other people's standards influence how we feel about our playing or our guitars. I've never heard anyone say, "I'm not a skilled enough driver to justify this car." It's all about what you enjoy. No justification needed.