Any downsides to 12 fretters?

[StringPicker6]

I'm extremely excited to eventually get my Forum VII 000-03, and I'm trying to think of any downsides to 12 frets to the body designs. Obviously, you lose some easy access to the highest frets, but other than that, any other losses that 14-fritters are better at providing?

[Silence Dogood]

You already listed the only downside I can see with a 12-fretter. I love playing up on the higher frets, and even enjoy doing so on a non-cutaway as it seems more traditional (maybe that's a strange view since improvements have been made, so why not use them? It doesn't even make sense entirely to me.  It's just the way I am). 

Having said that, there is something absolutely magical in the sound of a 12-fret guitar.  Strummed chords seem to have a more open and "airy" sound.  I've noticed this when I pick them up in shops. 

The absolute best guitar I've ever played was a Larrivée slope dread 12-fret some years ago at the late FQMS in Louisville.  That guitar was absolute magic. 

I'm looking forward to seeing and hopefully hearing some of these Forum guitars when you guys get them.

[eded]

Like already said, access to those upper frets is the biggest downside, but only if you play up there.  Since everything is shifted down, it is different playing geometry than a 14 fret.  The bridge is closer to the end (bottom?) of the body, the nut is closer (depending on how you hold the guitar).  All subtle changes but considering the lower bouts of a parlor and 00 are (approximately) 13 and 14 inches, respectively, obviously subtle changes can make a big difference.

Be careful, smaller bodies and 12 fret necks can change your approach to the instrument. It did mine and I'm a better player for it. 

Ed

Ps, edited after checking bout sizes

[StringPicker6]

I can see how people become 12-fret converts.

[VinhoTinto]

I love my SD-40 12 fret guitar as the chords ring clear and crisp. It is my favorite guitar to lay down tracks with during my home recordings as it mics incredibly well too!

[B0WIE]

Aside from access, which can be worked around, the main issue I see is with folks who have a specific tone (usually country or rock sounds they heard on an album) in mind. For instance, they want to sound like ____ artist and anything else is not as good. The 12 fret sound is richer and more complex. They have less of the twang than the 14 fret dread sound we've heard for decades. They also aren't good as a background instrument mixed to sound like a tambourine. They are better at solo or singer/songwriter material because they need room to breathe. When you add a lot of other instruments, the richness of the 12 fretter can sometimes get stomped on by brighter instruments.

 Think of it as a folk singer compared to a bluegrass singer, one voice is likely to sound more mellow and breathy while the other is reedy and projecting. Anyhow, that's how it comes across to my ears having owned both 12 and 14 fretters in small, med, and large body sizes.

[StringPicker6]

Excellent analogy, and it makes sense to me!

[fantex]

Love both of mine. A recently purchased used SD-60 and an almost year old 00-44.

[unclrob]

I used mine as a main gigging guitar for all style's.Its an OM03 pete anderson.You get used to playing things past the 12 fret.

[teh]

Bowie made some excellent points in his post for readers of this forum to consider based on his experiences with a variety of guitars over the years. I'll get to a couple of other noticeable differences I've discovered over 20 years of playing both 12 and 14 fret necks.

Historically, larger acoustic guitars evolved so they could be heard and hold their own in a band or orchestra setting. Bandleader Perry Bechtel went to Martin in 1929 and asked for a 14 fret neck which started out as a 000 and evolved into the orchestra model. My 14 fret guitars include two spruce/rosewood Martins (D-35, OM-35), a customized Larrivee 12 string (LV-03MT) and an Alvarez Dreadnought with a solid spruce top and laminated mahogany back and sides. Some other differences I've noticed between my 12 and 14 fret guitars:

Open or lower tunings
My 14 fret guitars generally sound better in Open or lower (tuned down) tunings. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Joni Mitchell, John Fahey, Leo Kottke and Michael Hedges are great examples of players who used 14 fret guitars to create new and different sounds. The 12 fret guitars offer more flexibility on tone and ease of playing on the fretboard.

String Gauges
Over the years and as I've gotten older, I find that lighter gauge strings offer more flexibility, less player fatique and longer string life, especially on my 12 fret guitars. I do know that Larrivee used to set up and use medium gauge string their parlor guitars. I'm not sure if they still do but my spruce/maple parlor really likes light gauge strings. I've found that strings are an easy and inexpensive way to experiment with sound and texture.

Volume
Scalloped bracing is a plus on smaller bodied guitars. I also added factory installed pickups to my Forum VI (Anthem Dual Source) and 00-24 (Anthem SL) and purchased a Fishman Humbucking soundhole pickup for my other acoustics. I'm also experimenting with external microphones.

Wood choices
Every one of my 12 fret guitars has a different wood combination for the top, back and sides. If I was on the waiting list for a Forum VII, I would be completely comfortable with either body size or any wood combination. Three of these four guitars were purchased and paid for before I ever touched them.
Parlor - Sitka/Flamed Maple - straight bracing
Forum VI - Moonwood/Walnut - scalloped
00-24 - All Mahogany - scalloped
Martin 000 - Spruce/Three piece Mahogany Back/Sides - scalloped

[William2]

That is an excellent post, Teh. I am still undecided whether my last will be a 12-fret or an all-hog instrument. You touched on a point I have a question about, the scalloped bracing on a smaller guitar. My SD-40R is amazingly responsive to a light pluck. I wonder if you lose this and if some of that open breathiness is lost with a non-scalloped instrument on a 12-fret guitar. I see Larrivee now offers the SD with non-scalloped bracing (03 line).

[teh]

William

A Larrivee SD body is the only one missing from my collection but I'd like to try a scalloped versus a non-scalloped guitar. I do have to say, I really like Larrivee's approach to scalloped bracing which is why I probably have two of them.

I would also describe my LSV-03 (Forum VI) as a "Big/Little" body size and the Venetian cutaway eliminates the issue of accessing the neck beyond the 12th fret. Having said that, I am not a fan of cutaways on smaller bodied guitars which are also labor intensive and costly to build. I do like them on L, OM and Jumbo guitars, not so much on dreadnoughts, 00 and smaller guitars.

On a side note, the scalloped bracing that was a standard feature on my 2006 Martin OM-35 made a difference noticeable difference in sound and volume over my 1976 D-35. Since 1965, Martin has used 1/4" top bracing on their standard straight braced 35 series guitars instead of the 5/16" bracing used on the 18 and 28 models. When they introduced the 35/series in 1965, they made three prototypes that included 1) Dreadnought top braces, 000 back braces, 2) 00 top braces, dreadnought back braces and finally 3) 00 top braces and 000 back braces which became the standard. I didn't know any of this at the time but my ear sure did.

As long as I'm rambling, my Martin 000 has a slotted headstock that I requested when I ordered it. It adds a vintage look and is lighter but I don't know if it makes a difference on sound. All of my other guitars have a solid headstock which is fine by me.

[Silence Dogood]

Lower tunings is another great point for 14-fretters.   I keep my D03 (the best guitar in the world) tuned down a step (at least) at all times.  With the right combination of string gauge, it's a magical combo. 

[teh]

I'm not trying to derail this thread but I'm thinking of taking my LV-03MT 12 string in for a set up to tune down a whole step.

Pete Seeger used to tune his 12 string down TWO whole steps and here is John McCutcheon playing one of the same 12 string models that Pete himself played. Sonorous, compelling and powerful is the only way I can describe this guitar and John makes it sound like a one man orchestra. The story captured in the song lyrics written by Woody Guthrie will grab you too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtnHMKW0oZk

[guitarman001]

I reckon there is no perfect guitar (except the D03 ?  ).
Sometimes I swear I'm 12-frets only... then I pick up a Larrivee 14-fret OM and it's love all over again.

[William2]

I reckon there is no perfect guitar (except the D03 ?  ).
Sometimes I swear I'm 12-frets only... then I pick up a Larrivee 14-fret OM and it's love all over again.

The D-03 really is the perfect guitar LOL. I like the 14-fret instrument because mine seem to have a more defined, focused upper register sound. And depending on how you attack the strings, I think both can sound equally pretty.

[William2]

William

A Larrivee SD body is the only one missing from my collection but I'd like to try a scalloped versus a non-scalloped guitar. I do have to say, I really like Larrivee's approach to scalloped bracing which is why I probably have two of them.

I would also describe my LSV-03 (Forum VI) as a "Big/Little" body size and the Venetian cutaway eliminates the issue of accessing the neck beyond the 12th fret. Having said that, I am not a fan of cutaways on smaller bodied guitars which are also labor intensive and costly to build. I do like them on L, OM and Jumbo guitars, not so much on dreadnoughts, 00 and smaller guitars.

On a side note, the scalloped bracing that was a standard feature on my 2006 Martin OM-35 made a difference noticeable difference in sound and volume over my 1976 D-35. Since 1965, Martin has used 1/4" top bracing on their standard straight braced 35 series guitars instead of the 5/16" bracing used on the 18 and 28 models. When they introduced the 35/series in 1965, they made three prototypes that included 1) Dreadnought top braces, 000 back braces, 2) 00 top braces, dreadnought back braces and finally 3) 00 top braces and 000 back braces which became the standard. I didn't know any of this at the time but my ear sure did.

As long as I'm rambling, my Martin 000 has a slotted headstock that I requested when I ordered it. It adds a vintage look and is lighter but I don't know if it makes a difference on sound. All of my other guitars have a solid headstock which is fine by me.

 found this an interesting history lesson of Martin guitars. I've always found their bracing changes interesting. I don't think you can go wrong with an SD model. I really like mine. And I think Larrivee now offers the SD in the 03-model line. I have often thought most members here prefer the non-scalloped parabolic bracing for Larrivee guitars. You seem to prefer the scalloped bracing. I have three scalloped braced instruments and one non-scalloped. My dealer just prefers scalloped Larrivee's and that is what he usually carries. I was surprised when he had a D-03R and a L-03R available. Listening to his videos of these instruments and wanting the best guitar in the world, I purchased the D-03R. I play it against my D-40R to see which I like better but can't decide. All I can say with certainty is that they are equally powerful and have a similar sustain. I think the sustain is a little longer on the D-40R on the high notes and the D-03R just keeps ringing on mid-range notes. I don't know how this will change over time. The D-03R is less than a year old and the D-40R is over three years old. I do think the D-03R wins on note separation in chording. And I like however hard I attack the strings it handles everything I do. I really like the singing upper register of the D-40R. The notes are pretty, and they have a nice sustain. I don't know if this is the bracing or just being played every day for 3 years. I'll probably get a non-scalloped instrument for my last one but I'm not sure what it will be. I'm thinking either a D-03, D-03mh, or an L-03R. I'm thinking a hog dreadnought would be different. The thing is some people say non-scalloped offers longer sustain and now Martin comes out with their 17 series hog and says the scalloped bracing offers better sustain. Who do you believe?

[Silence Dogood]

I reckon there is no perfect guitar (except the D03 ?  ).
Sometimes I swear I'm 12-frets only... then I pick up a Larrivee 14-fret OM and it's love all over again.

It has been firmly established here for a good while that the D03 is indeed the best guitar in the world. 
 

[Rockysdad]

It has been firmly established here for a good while that the D03 is indeed the best guitar in the world. 
 

I think you may have mistakingly made a typing error, you put a *D* instead of an *L*.   

[Silence Dogood]

I think you may have mistakingly made a typing error, you put a *D* instead of an *L*.