Fishman Sonitone in an Epiphone Hummingbird

[Sandstorm]

I've got the Radial PZ pre and a K&K pure for my OM40.  I'm playing into a traynor block 10 keyboard/mixer amp.  This is my first experience using a pickup with my steel string.

I recently rented an Inspired by Gibson Epiphone Hummingbird with the Fishman sonitone system.  I wanted to try the dreadnought size and see if I liked it enough to consider the Gibson equivalent.  I think the Sonitone sounds rather poor but I think it might just need some dialing in so had a couple questions to get me going in the right direction


1.  The sonitone has a 9v battery preamp but it is technically a piezo system, so do I need to engage that piezo booster button on the Radial pream?

2.  Since it had the preamp, do I even need to use a preamp or can I plug right into a powered speaker or the keyboard amp?

I've tried both engaging the booster on and off and it seems to work either way, as well as plugging right into the keyboard amp and although it seems to work I'm not sure I've found the ideal way to get the most out of this system.  I'm aware the Gibson had a different Lr baggs system but the concept is the same in that it has the built in preamp.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks, fellas

[William2]

I know nothing about electronics but would be interested in your thoughts on the Epiphone inspired Hummingbird and how you like a dreadnought instrument.

[jpmist]

Sandstorm -
I've got the Radial PZ pre and a K&K pure for my OM40.  I'm playing into a traynor block 10 keyboard/mixer amp.  This is my first experience using a pickup with my steel string.

I recently rented an Inspired by Gibson Epiphone Hummingbird with the Fishman sonitone system. I think the Sonitone sounds rather poor but I think it might just need some dialing in so had a couple questions to get me going in the right direction. I've tried both engaging the booster on and off and it seems to work either way, as well as plugging right into the keyboard amp and although it seems to work I'm not sure I've found the ideal way to get the most out of this system.  I'm aware the Gibson had a different Lr baggs system but the concept is the same in that it has the built in preamp.

Any suggestions are welcome.



I did a quick search on AGF and it confirmed my hunch that there's no love for the Sonitone with "icepick" mentioned a few times. You have the right idea with trying out and comparing, but the Sonitone and K&K have very little in common.

The Sonitone feeds the piezo's that are placed directly under the saddle - IMHO the absolute worst place and the reason "ice pick" comes up so frequently. In contrast the K&K's are glued to the soundboard directly under the saddle so the string vibration and attack are modulated down quite a bit by the properties of a wood soundboard compared to a higher mass brittle saddle in direct contact to the strings. Certainly there's a few decades of engineering involved by Fishman to get these things sounding better so there are a multitude of EQ boxes offered to tame the awful attack and treble the saddle pickups offer.

Your best bet IMHO is to simply audition the Epiphone acoustically with the idea that you'd place a K&K in the future. Best of luck with it!

[Sandstorm]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

After reading the Radial manual over again with the Sonitone in mind, it does not need the piezo booster engaged on the Radial.  No matter what I did, it always seemed to have that harsh single note sound and rather cheap sounding amplified tone.  My best results was simply plugging right into the keyboard amp and I think the only reason that works is it has a built in preamp.

As far as the guitar, it is fairly heavy feeling and unplugged sounds and plays pretty good.  Makes me shake my head why as soon as I plug in I just go in circles tweaking everything and never getting something I like.

To me it had the Gibson, heavy paint, muted type sound that you really have to strum the hell out of to get it going.  I don't mind that sound, but one of the things I've always liked about most the Larrivees I've played is their bright, crisp sound.  I think that Gibson sound would be a welcome addition for me, it's different enough and I think I'd have a use for it.  I didn't mind the dreadnought size, but any intricate playing beyond the 1st position I found myself seating the guitar on my left leg, classical style.  I thought I'd be wrestling it around to keep it in place but it felt fine on the left leg, just looks kind of funny sitting with a dread that way vs an OM that has more of a classical silhouette.

The Epiphone finish looked good, binding work was clean...really I don't think there was any imperfections that stood out.  I prefer the hummingbirds with the more reddish colour than the Gibsons that all seem to have more orange/yellow.  Cosmetically, it looked better than the few Gibsons I've come across that appeared to have gunky nut work or visible paint spatter in the burst finish.

My idea was that if I really liked the Epiphone Hummingbird that the Gibson Hummingbird should be even better.  After this experience, I'm not sure any other under saddle system is going to sound so much better than this one.  The way that braided wire under the saddle sits can't be good for the acoustic unplugged tone. 

If you buy a $1200 Cdn Epiphone, remove all the electronics and install a K&K, replace the saddle because the stock one would be sized to accomodate the under saddle wire, then purchase a decent hardcase, get the new electronics installed and set up...its probably close to another 40% of the value of that guitar which you'd never get back if you sold or traded it.  And when you consider that overall cost, you are so close to adding a little more and getting a simple 6 or Yamaha red label that come with a case and made in USA or Japan vs Indonesia or goddamm China.  But if you really want a little bit of a Gibson look and sound, you won't get that from much else other than Epiphone.

Personally, I would take issue with having to harvest out the electronics on the Gibson version if I had no luck with the Lr baggs system that they ship with the Gibson models.  That issue is only because for a guitar in that price point, you really shouldn't have to muck around to make it sound good.
My hope would be that it sounds good enough to use as is because the reason I went for the Radial box is it has two inputs so I can plug a K&K guitar into one input and engage the piezo and if I had another guitar with an integrated preamp, like an Lr baggs, I wouldn't need a second preamp box.

I guess my overall feeling is, the Epiphone is a decent guitar for the Gibson flavour, the Fishman sonitone sucks and if I want to see if the Gibson system is any better, there's no short cut around trying the actual system with my set up.  I probably shouldn't paint all under saddle systems with the same brush.

I wouldn't be opposed to considering the Epiphone and I don't mind modifying or personalizing my guitars, but I also like investing in professional gear that I'm happy to have in my possession and not yearn to upgrade to the better model in the future like if I bought the Epiphone, I may still yearn for the Gibson.

[William2]

Thanks for your comments on the Epiphone. When I was considering a Gibson, I also looked at the Epiphone. I
 have heard the comments about it being heavy. And apparently in Bozeman they made or make some Epiphones and from the review I watched the instrument is much lighter and more responsive. So maybe those foreign made Epiphones don't come up to the Montana versions. Anyway, I mentioned to my dealer who doesn't carry Gibson but loves Gibson I was considering getting a Gibson. He said OK but beware they vary greatly from instrument to instrument. I think it was that comment and the QC issues I've read about in the AGF that changed my mind. And he said he always considered the Hummingbird a strummer instrument. And I was only interested in their Faded series as I don't like gloss guitars. Then he puts out this demo of the D-03. That's what I ended up with and couldn't be happier. I have no problem sitting with a dreadnought in the non-classical position. Maybe it just takes getting used to, In fact I sometimes think the classical position looks a little unnatural.

[Sandstorm]

Thanks for your comments on the Epiphone. When I was considering a Gibson, I also looked at the Epiphone. I
 have heard the comments about it being heavy. And apparently in Bozeman they made or make some Epiphones and from the review I watched the instrument is much lighter and more responsive. So maybe those foreign made Epiphones don't come up to the Montana versions. Anyway, I mentioned to my dealer who doesn't carry Gibson but loves Gibson I was considering getting a Gibson. He said OK but beware they vary greatly from instrument to instrument. I think it was that comment and the QC issues I've read about in the AGF that changed my mind. And he said he always considered the Hummingbird a strummer instrument. And I was only interested in their Faded series as I don't like gloss guitars. Then he puts out this demo of the D-03. That's what I ended up with and couldn't be happier. I have no problem sitting with a dreadnought in the non-classical position. Maybe it just takes getting used to, In fact I sometimes think the classical position looks a little unnatural.

I can play electrics comfortably on my right leg, but I'll raise my right leg up with a footstool.  I also play electric in my left leg.  With a larger bodied acoustic, since I'm about 5'7", I find my thigh slopes downward instead of being flat when seated in most chairs and also my wingspan isn't that wide to hold the guitar comfortably for long periods or securely for confident playing.  I do agree, with a dread, seated in a classical position may look unnatural.

I don't doubt a Larrivee dread would be a fine choice, I just feel for a Gibson itch, there's nothing that will really fill that void.  I guess I'm enamoured by the red body and cream binding and larger inlays...and a bird in the pickguard, lol.

I also agree the Gibson QC can vary from instrument to instrument.  The hummingbird, J-45 and SJ-200 tend to go in sale at Gibson retailers a few times a year where savings are $700 to $800 cdn off regular price which if you can find one that checks all the boxes, would be a good choice.  Also a good opportunity to trade something you wish was worth another $7 or $8 bills, lol.

[William2]

I think it is the Gibson look that attracted me to the Hummingbird and to a lesser extent the J-45. Too bad you mentioned that $700 discount, I might get the fever again LOL. And yet, with my 4 Larrivee's, 3 of which are rosewood, I always seem to grab the rosewood instruments first. And Larrivee D-40 is such a gun. I sold my Martin DSS-17.

[Sandstorm]

I had my Larrivee in getting the input jack tightened up which is why I rented the Epiphone.

After 4 days with the Epiphone, I really disliked the sonitone.  The set up was not bad on the guitar, a little bit low action for my liking.  I tried micing it up for some recording just to hear how it sounded and overall I was warming up to it.  I did find fingerstyle acceptable on it although the bridge spacing was tighter than my OM40.

I found myself much preferring to play it with a pick and even adding some other chord voicings and rythems and keeping engaged just playing it with a pick.  I returned it today and picked up my Larrivee.  My final thoughts were, yeah, I like the Hummingbird, but I'm not sure I'd spend the money for the Gibson.

Then I plugged in my Larrivee with the K&K and I think that's much more of my sound and style for me.  I'm really impressed with the K&K and the size and comfort and tone of the Larrivee.  I thought the bridge spacing was acceptable on the Epiphone until I went back to the Larrivee.  Maybe it's just what I'm used to.  I thought I might want something different for a second acoustic but now I might just consider a rosewood Larrivee OM or Lv and Gibson fever might be cured for a while.

[unclrob]

I have this system in MIC Guild 12 string,though I hate most pu its really not bad no preamp needed direct into board it does the job with fairly nice tone.