D70 Radius/tuning problem

[Tim Chipman]

Oh boy! I'm really glad I joined this forum. I've been playing for 60 years and it's amazing how much I don't know about guitars. Some of you sound like luthiers?
I'm in northern Iowa and there are a few techs in the state and I'll get this information to one or maybe two of them and get the work done.
Please accept my sincere thanks for your help.

[Queequeg]

Oh boy! I'm really glad I joined this forum. I've been playing for 60 years and it's amazing how much I don't know about guitars. Some of you sound like luthiers?
I'm in northern Iowa and there are a few techs in the state and I'll get this information to one or maybe two of them and get the work done.
Please accept my sincere thanks for your help.

Yeah, joining this forum was totally free and now it's going to cost you probably $150 or so to fix your guitar.
 
Unclrob and Bowie comprise the braintrust here, and there's other smart folks too with a wealth of experience.
I don't include myself among those.
I'm just old and have owned a lot of different guitars over the years and been around this forum for a long time.

[Silence Dogood]

I find the amount of guitar-knowledge in this thread pretty impressive!  I've been playing 30+ years and have never fully understood many of the terms tossed around (e.g. - intonation, neck relief, etc).  I mean, I know what it is *supposed* to mean and I get what's being referenced, but I don't fully understand the inner workings of such things. 

This thread reminds me of something about my own guitar, though. 

I've had it over 20 years and from day one, when I do an old-school D chord, something just sounds just a little off.  Nothing major, but just some little shimmering, warbling sound that lets me know something isn't entirely in tune. 

The strings are all in perfect tune when open, but when I press down that D chord, the B strings is just a tad out of whack.  Sometimes I'll retune with the strings pressed down making the D chord, and it will be better: but it's super rare for me to get it perfect. 

I showed it to the luthier and he thought I was imagining it.  "It's in tune, man! Play guitar!"  But I can hear that it's slightly out.  At this point, and esp all these years later, I've just learned to deal with it, and it's even caused me to slightly alter the way I play a D chord in a song.  But there are times when I'll pick up another guitar, and the first thing I'll do is play a reg D chord.  When I hear it ring out perfectly, it always makes me a bit envious!
 

All said, I hope the OP gets this sorted out.  It can be quite maddening!

[B0WIE]

I find the amount of guitar-knowledge in this thread pretty impressive!  I've been playing 30+ years and have never fully understood many of the terms tossed around (e.g. - intonation, neck relief, etc).  I mean, I know what it is *supposed* to mean and I get what's being referenced, but I don't fully understand the inner workings of such things. 

This thread reminds me of something about my own guitar, though. 

I've had it over 20 years and from day one, when I do an old-school D chord, something just sounds just a little off.  Nothing major, but just some little shimmering, warbling sound that lets me know something isn't entirely in tune. 

The strings are all in perfect tune when open, but when I press down that D chord, the B strings is just a tad out of whack.  Sometimes I'll retune with the strings pressed down making the D chord, and it will be better: but it's super rare for me to get it perfect. 

I showed it to the luthier and he thought I was imagining it.  "It's in tune, man! Play guitar!"  But I can hear that it's slightly out.  At this point, and esp all these years later, I've just learned to deal with it, and it's even caused me to slightly alter the way I play a D chord in a song.  But there are times when I'll pick up another guitar, and the first thing I'll do is play a reg D chord.  When I hear it ring out perfectly, it always makes me a bit envious!
 

All said, I hope the OP gets this sorted out.  It can be quite maddening!

 Tune to the 2nd fret and see if the 1, 2, 3, 4 positions on that string are all in tune. Often, those will all be in-tune but the open will be off. This can be fixed at the nut. The nut is usually slightly off from the factory and is largely overlooked by techs (which is why I started learning about repair 25 years ago). The common thought is that you set the nut for comfort but then you've doomed the guitar to never intonate correctly between the open and fretted notes.

 If you tune to the 2nd fret and everything else is off, then it's probably fret wear in that position. That spot sees a lot of use from various chords so 2nd on the B is one of the first to go.

[Silence Dogood]

Tune to the 2nd fret and see if the 1, 2, 3, 4 positions on that string are all in tune. Often, those will all be in-tune but the open will be off. This can be fixed at the nut. The nut is usually slightly off from the factory and is largely overlooked by techs (which is why I started learning about repair 25 years ago). The common thought is that you set the nut for comfort but then you've doomed the guitar to never intonate correctly between the open and fretted notes.

 If you tune to the 2nd fret and everything else is off, then it's probably fret wear in that position. That spot sees a lot of use from various chords so 2nd on the B is one of the first to go.

Great info!  I'll give this a try soon. (I've been in mandolin mode a lot and my Larrivee is getting sorely neglected.)  This same tech changed my frets a few years ago.  He chided me and told me my frets should've lasted much longer, possibly a lifetime, but I play so hard I wore them down in about ten years of casual use.
 

[Tim Chipman]

Here's a picture of the Music Nomad guage I use for setting up my guitars. I bought the kit, along with the neck brace to rest the guitar on and the mat to protect the body. I got it when I blocked the tremelo on the PRS DGT that I bought. Since then I've used the kit for setting up all my stuff, except this Larivee. Not that it matters but it looks like "millimeters" is what they're saying the 1.50 indicates. According to this if my action was 4mm at the 12th fret it would be hard to play
I really appreciate the wisdom you all have shown, I've learned a lot in very short period of time. I contacted a luthier in Coralville Iowa and he's going to take a look. I sent him quotes from this thread to at least get him on the right track!

[Queequeg]

Here's a picture of the Music Nomad guage I use for setting up my guitars. I bought the kit, along with the neck brace to rest the guitar on and the mat to protect the body. I got it when I blocked the tremelo on the PRS DGT that I bought. Since then I've used the kit for setting up all my stuff, except this Larivee. Not that it matters but it looks like "millimeters" is what they're saying the 1.50 indicates. According to this if my action was 4mm at the 12th fret it would be hard to play
I really appreciate the wisdom you all have shown, I've learned a lot in very short period of time. I contacted a luthier in Coralville Iowa and he's going to take a look. I sent him quotes from this thread to at least get him on the right track!

Right.
My bad.
I shouldn't be multi-tasking when I post here, especially with numbers.
 

[Tim Chipman]

Not a problem! I just watched Uncle Rob's interview video. There's a wealth of information there. When he mentioned there was one brand that didn't get that "belly" effect I hope he was referring to Larivee. Mine doesn't have that........ I don't think anyway. I went right back to the guitar and checked the intonation on the 19th harmonic and the fretted 10th. Not as bad at all, and different. The high E and B were dead on. The G was slightly flat along with the low E. So now from reading more of what you guys are saying I think there might be a nut problem, and a saddle problem. The frets are definitely worn and now I know that's also a problem! I hope it's only $150!!!

[unclrob]

As you saw in the video a setup should include the frets and the nut adjustment.The pix of the saddle shuold be pulled and clean and make sure it fits in the saddle slot properly not to tight and no leaning.

[Tim Chipman]

As you saw in the video a setup should include the frets and the nut adjustment.The pix of the saddle shuold be pulled and clean and make sure it fits in the saddle slot properly not to tight and no leaning.

Rob, what do think about a compensated saddle?

[unclrob]

I make them now and again,I find the pre made ones will some work.Me I like the non comp for myself and many of my clients like them too make's them play better,its kinda like a tele with a three barrel bridge.

[Tim Chipman]

Thanks for that Rob. And thank you for the video. You and I are of roughly the same vintage, I'll turn 71 this year. I don't gig very much at all anymore but I do write and record my own songs. You mentioned Guild in the video. I still have a D50 I bought in 1972. I'm sure it could use your expertise as well!

[Tim Chipman]

So I took the D-70 to a luthier with an impeccable reputation. He did some beautiful work. He made and installed a new bone nut. He installed a compensated saddle. Replaced the the fishman bridge pickup because it was damaged. He also replaced 12 frets. He did not file the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. The guitar sounds great, but it's really hard to play. I told him where I liked the action at the 12th fret and he said that it was way too low. OK.......Now, even at the first fret it's fatiguing to play for very long.
At the 12th fret he has it set at .10 for the low E and .08 for the high E.(inches) or in 64ths it's 7/64's for the low E and 5/64's for the high E. For me (and maybe I'm being a baby, and if I am please tell me) it's just really hard to play. I've picked up countless cheap guitars that played way better than this...........it didn't play like this from the factory.
Another VERY positive thing is that the tuning issue is fixed. It's dead on everywhere up and down the neck. He also put more relief in the neck, (he said I had it about as straight as it could get) Yes, I did that on purpose.
He's very reluctant to make the action lower because he said that Stewart McDonald says that the way he has it set is the minimum that they recommend. He's afraid if he goes lower we'll have fret buzz or some other problem. I can say for sure we're no where near fret buzz.
Is there anything I can do to improve the way it plays, I guess is there a simple way to lower the action without going to a Luthier or will I need to go somewhere else. Maybe I'm being a baby, I just think a guitar this nice should play a lot better. He did great work I think we just disagree about how an acoustic should play........maybe I'll have to go back to lifting weights or just play my Guild D-50 instead.........just kidding....I'm not giving up just yet.
Tim

[Queequeg]

If this was my guitar I would have a conversation with him (because you respect him) but it is, after, all your guitar.
Have him cut a new nut and a new saddle to bring the action on this guitar more to your liking and ease of playing.
KEEP THE EXISTING NUT & SADDLE!
This business about not filing the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. - I'm not buying that at all.
How long are you supposed to wait for the nut to get to where you like it?
That's just unacceptable to me. If/when it digs in further, then you can have a new nut cut for it, but I want it properly fitted right now, today.

[Tim Chipman]

If this was my guitar I would have a conversation with him (because you respect him) but it is, after, all your guitar.
Have him cut a new nut and a new saddle to bring the action on this guitar more to your liking and ease of playing.
KEEP THE EXISTING NUT & SADDLE!
This business about not filing the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. - I'm not buying that at all.
How long are you supposed to wait for the nut to get to where you like it?
That's just unacceptable to me. If/when it digs in further, then you can have a new nut cut for it, but I want it properly fitted right now, today.

I hear you. It's a little disappointing. I'm not sure he'll do that, but I could try. The saddle really looks like it's up in the air a ways comparatively.

[Tim Chipman]

Maybe one of you wise gentlemen or ladies can tell me what Larivee or even other manufacturers are recommending for string height at he 12th fret and maybe even nut slot depth. As was said, I do respect him and want to give him a chance to do it over if possible. He did fix the intonation problem and the new fret work is really great.

[unclrob]

I never measure anything I set the guitar to play its best for the player and want to see it back with notes from the player{I don't read mine's}.I'll make any adjustments the player feels are needed for him/her.Sometimes its not the guitar but the player may be squeezing to hard puling the strings sharp.
As always if I can be of any help contact me via PM  with your number and we can talk.My email is being locked by yahoo and I have no way of prev who I am.

[Tim Chipman]

Thanks much Rob.

[Rockysdad]

Here is a site worth looking through, Frets.com. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html

It's by a fellow named Frank Ford, quite knowledgeable about guitars.

There is a TON OF INFO.

[Tim Chipman]

thank you Rockysdad, I will check that out.