12-Fret vs 14-Fret based on The Music You Play

[William2]

I own a 12-fret and two 14-fret Larrivee instruments. I play classical pieces, jazz standard arrangements, and am adding Celtic pieces to my play list on these instruments. While I can play over the 12th fret on my 12-fret guitar, I find it much easier to play the jazz arrangements on the 14-fret instruments. I think this might be for a couple of reasons. These jazz arrangements often use the second string for the top voice where many of my classical pieces use the first string when they go past the 12th fret. The other reason might be the key signature. Most of the jazz guitar arrangements are in flat keys like the original song. A lot of these arrangements use the second string for the melody going past the 12th fret while I suppose they could just be brought down the neck and put on the first string. I do however see why they are playing these things where they do (smoothness, legato, and for what is coming next). Some of these chords with fingers on the low strings on the 12th or 13th frets just work better on 12-fret guitar. One thing that always bothered me about classical guitar was the limited number of keys they use like the Celtic arrangements. And yet, I think I prefer these Celtic pieces best on my 14-fret instruments. There is nothing overly demanding and they seem to stay in guitar friendly keys and not go past the 12th fret. They can be played on a 12-fret instrument, but I like the sound of these pieces better on the 14-fret instruments. Do you think certain styles of music work better on a 12 or 14 fret instrument?

[B0WIE]

My playing is mostly fingerstyle folk, classical, little bit of jazz, and ambient. Once I discovered the sound and feel of 12 fret steel strings I never went back. There's a somewhat nasal sound I hear that comes out in that moving of the bridge. If I was playing bluegrass or country I'd want that 14 fret sound but it's something I don't like. Larrivees naturally have less of this "twang" which is why I was drawn to them. 12 fretters articulate in a more piano-like way than 14 fretters. That's my personal taste, no one should be offended if they hear it different. I'd say I'm in the minority based on the popularity of OMs and dreads. 

The comfort is another big thing, but it's secondary for me.

I don't have any problem getting past the 13th fret. I guess it's because I learned to play by watching classical players. I don't rely on the thumb for a lot of leverage and I sit in classical position so the guitar is very stable if I let go of the thumb when going higher on the board.

[Myopic Squirrel]

William, I'm curious. Are you switching frequently between the 12 and 14, and if so do you feel any ergonomic difference. I understand there is less than a 2" difference. I ask because I'm considering downsizing from a Larrivee OM to a Larrivee 00 for ergonomic reasons.

[unclrob]

My main guitar for years is an OM03PA which is a 12 fret maple B+S.A 12 fret puts the bridge in the middle of the lower and added a real nice bass responce.I play all styles on it but I do find that I really play past the 14 fret which isn't much of a reach for my pinky.

[ducktrapper]

Here's the rub. Whatever guitar I play, I sound exactly like me. 

[William2]

William, I'm curious. Are you switching frequently between the 12 and 14, and if so do you feel any ergonomic difference. I understand there is less than a 2" difference. I ask because I'm considering downsizing from a Larrivee OM to a Larrivee 00 for ergonomic reasons.

I play all three of my instruments every day. For me, size doesn't matter. When I returned to the guitar 6 years ago, I sat in the classical position. I think this sitting position allows all sizes to work for me. I sometimes felt sitting like this with my Waterloo WL-12 that I felt too big for the instrument, but it felt just right with the Waterloo Jumbo King. Watching some of the young classical guitarists today, I often wonder are these people a lot bigger than me? They appear to dwarf the instrument and with this new device called the guitar lift, I think it looks ridiculous. I don't feel this way with a foot stool, however. And to 20 years I didn't sit in this position playing lute. This has worked out well for me. However, getting back to Mr. BOWIE's comment about 12-fret instruments and his sitting in the classical position, I decided this morning to go back to sitting in my classical position, use the 12-fret guitar, and play some jazz pieces and some Celtic tunes. I have never really played the Celtic tunes on the 12-fret instrument. They use a drop D on the sixth, and I keep one of my dreadnoughts in that tuning. That said, maybe this post was all wrong. I like Celtic on the 12-fret instrument. Some of those tricky upper position chord positions are much more doable in the classical sitting position, and lastly there is that 12-fret sound easy quick attack the 12-fret instrument offers. I will say, if I could only keep one instrument, it would be the SD-40RW and it is the 12-fret. The OM never really did it for me. I always like a 00, 000, or 12-fret dreadnought the best. I think it all about comfort and what instrument allows you to do what you want to do. I'm still trying to decide whether I prefer rosewood or mahogany. But I'm still kind of leaning toward rosewood. If that ends up being the case. I've got everything I need.

[unclrob]

Drop D tunings sound great on a 12 fret,My OM03PA is in drop tuning now.

Drop tunings my fav is DADDAD,full D tuning and open G tuning.


keep smilin and keep dancin 

[ducktrapper]

Drop D tunings sound great on a 12 fret,My OM03PA is in drop tuning now.

Drop tunings my fav is DADDAD,full D tuning and open G tuning.


keep smilin and keep dancin 

These days I prefer a partial capo rather than tuning down. It allows a normal G chord for one thing.

[unclrob]

I HATE capos they do so much damage to frets and the neck back.

Let me tell you why...most people put the thing against the fret.causing the plan string to cut into the frets,next he clapping is to tight pulling strings out of tune,last but not less the damage they do to headstock.

By the way I also have a 14 fret L and a Guild 12 string and play them all the same way.


keep smilin and keep dancin   

[B0WIE]

I agree about most capos. They put too much clamping pressure, not to mention messing up the tuning. I do think there are good ones that can be adjusted, but if the radius doesn't match the fret board then you get unnecessary pressure and bad tuning.

[William2]

The only time I ever used or owned a capo was when I was young, I took flamenco guitar lessons. It was wood and had a nylon string that wrapped around the neck and was attached to a violin tuning peg which you screwed into the capo. I just prefer having the whole length of the neck at my disposal. Iris guitars has an interesting model with removable capos of various lengths that screw into the fretboard.

https://www.irisguitarcompany.com/de-11-model

[ducktrapper]

I agree about most capos. They put too much clamping pressure, not to mention messing up the tuning. I do think there are good ones that can be adjusted, but if the radius doesn't match the fret board then you get unnecessary pressure and bad tuning.

I strongly disagree. For my purposes, they are indispensable items. I use several different ones including a Shubb (my favorite), Planet Waves NS or G7 and generally avoid trigger type capoes although the partial that I occasionally use is a Kyser. It's true you have to be careful how you put them on but you can easily avoid most problems they might cause with a little care. However, like most things, if you don't need or like it, don't do it.       

[mike in lytle]

Iris guitars has an interesting model with removable capos of various lengths that screw into the fretboard.
https://www.irisguitarcompany.com/de-11-model

Now that is cool. And I have Dan Erlewine's book too.

[ducktrapper]

Now that is cool. And I have Dan Erlewine's book too.

Nice guitar. Sounds good, looks good but as for the built in capo? Maybe but it seems unecessarily complicated and, I imagine, slow to change but how does it work better than a Shubb? If it's actually more accurate it could be good in the studio, I suppose. I need capoes on stage when I'm performing and singing and I'd rather not get into a long song and dance to move the capo a couple of frets. I only have so many jokes and stories. And what if you use more than one guitar? 

[B0WIE]

I strongly disagree. For my purposes, they are indispensable items. I use several different ones including a Shubb (my favorite), Planet Waves NS or G7 and generally avoid trigger type capoes although the partial that I occasionally use is a Kyser. It's true you have to be careful how you put them on but you can easily avoid most problems they might cause with a little care. However, like most things, if you don't need or like it, don't do it.       

Not sure which part you disagree with. Seems like we both use adjustable capos and avoid the trigger clamp style.

[mike in lytle]

Nice guitar. Sounds good, looks good but as for the built in capo? Maybe but it seems unecessarily complicated and, I imagine, slow to change but how does it work better than a Shubb? If it's actually more accurate it could be good in the studio, I suppose. I need capoes on stage when I'm performing and singing and I'd rather not get into a long song and dance to move the capo a couple of frets. I only have so many jokes and stories. And what if you use more than one guitar? 

I think it is a cool story, about one particular guy (Dan) who had particular concerns and managed to get a guitar built that fixed his itch. There aren't many of that guitar, and they aren't for everyone. For sure, Dan Erlewine is a character.

[ducktrapper]

Not sure which part you disagree with. Seems like we both use adjustable capos and avoid the trigger clamp style.

Not (just) with you but with those who dislike or won't use capoes. I never really have trouble with them. I think guitars with tuning or intonation problems have ... tuning and intonation problems whether you use a capo or not.   

[ducktrapper]

I think it is a cool story, about one particular guy (Dan) who had particular concerns and managed to get a guitar built that fixed his itch. There aren't many of that guitar, and they aren't for everyone. For sure, Dan Erlewine is a character.

It might just be a better mouse trap or it might be a Rube Goldberg machine. I'd like to try one. 

[B0WIE]

Not (just) with you but with those who dislike or won't use capoes. I never really have trouble with them. I think guitars with tuning or intonation problems have ... tuning and intonation problems whether you use a capo or not.   

The thing I was referring to about the radius is just a physics thing, not a fault of the guitar. My best Larrivees had issues with a lot of capos. What happens is, if the radius of your capo doesn't match the radius of the board, some strings get pinched harder than others. Not only does that mess up the tuning but it does what Rob says and wears on the frets. That used to drive me nuts until I figured out what was happening. With guitars like older Larrivees that don't follow Martin standards, this can be particularly noticeable. That's when I started keeping a few adjustable capos of different radius. Problem solved.

 I recognize why Rob dislikes them as there's a lot of bad ones that mar up guitars. I know some people can't hear tuning imperfections from a capo, but a lot of us do and it can ruin the enjoyment of playing, hearing the guitar out of tune in those higher notes.

[ducktrapper]

The thing I was referring to about the radius is just a physics thing, not a fault of the guitar. My best Larrivees had issues with a lot of capos. What happens is, if the radius of your capo doesn't match the radius of the board, some strings get pinched harder than others. Not only does that mess up the tuning but it does what Rob says and wears on the frets. That used to drive me nuts until I figured out what was happening. With guitars like older Larrivees that don't follow Martin standards, this can be particularly noticeable. That's when I started keeping a few adjustable capos of different radius. Problem solved.

 I recognize why Rob dislikes them as there's a lot of bad ones that mar up guitars. I know some people can't hear tuning imperfections from a capo, but a lot of us do and it can ruin the enjoyment of playing, hearing the guitar out of tune in those higher notes.

Okay. I used to have problems 50 years ago with the capo that had a stretchy rubber band that you had to pull around and put through a hole but really I have not noticed any issues for years. I switched to a Jim Dunlop and then to the Jim Dunlop with the adjustable strap about 40 years ago and if you were careful they worked pretty well. About 25 years ago I went with a Shubb and problems solved. NS capoes are nice and light but don't work on all guitars. The G7 is a little too heavy but it works well. The only "good thing" with a trigger capo is that you can pinch it on your headstock where it will damage your finish and turn your guitar into a Ya aha. Shubb it is!