Patina

[fantex]

Hello,

I've recently become very interested in smaller body 12-frets so I'm on the look out for an 00 with rosewood. I've got a couple guitars to sell first so I'm in no hurry.

As I researched the Larrivée line up I notice that a lot of the Sitka Spruce tops are very light. Do these develop a patina over time and use?

[B0WIE]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Larrivee's sitka tops definitely age. Because they don't use nitrocellulose lacquer you won't get the secondary yellow or orange color like a Martin. Instead you just see the pure color of the Sitka spruce, which is a nice reddish brown. It takes about the same amount of time as spruce from any other maker. My Larrivees from the late 90's are quite dark.

[fantex]

Thanks for the info. That sounds great.

[StringPicker6]

I'm looking forward to my tops darkening!  Makes me feel like I'm not the only thing that's getting older around here.   

[jazzereh]

When you note the lightness of some tops you have seen, is it possible you are looking at 'moonwood' tops?  They are very 'white' but will age.  Great tops, btw.

[William2]

Do moon spruce tops have less of a darkening affect over time? I am considering two Larrivee instruments. One has a moon spruce top and the other a Sitka top. Visually I prefer the moon spruce top with its tighter grain structure. It also appears to lighter in color. The Sitka has a very straight but wider grain structure. Of course, sound will be the determining factor. I have heard the Sitka instrument and was very impressed. My dealer is preparing a video on the moon spruce instrument.

[jpmist]

As I researched the Larrivée line up I notice that a lot of the Sitka Spruce tops are very light. Do these develop a patina over time and use?

Here's mine. The 2011 model has Italian Spruce and is still pretty light compared to the Sitka 2010 model. I keep em out on stands all day in a bright room for what that's worth.

[B0WIE]

Do moon spruce tops have less of a darkening affect over time? I am considering two Larrivee instruments. One has a moon spruce top and the other a Sitka top. Visually I prefer the moon spruce top with its tighter grain structure. It also appears to lighter in color. The Sitka has a very straight but wider grain structure. Of course, sound will be the determining factor. I have heard the Sitka instrument and was very impressed. My dealer is preparing a video on the moon spruce instrument.

They darken slower, but they do darken (see old Italian violins).

[StringPicker6]

I feel like it hasn't been that long since Larrivee started making the moonwood tops, so maybe it's too early to see how dark they get?

[fantex]

The ones I'm referring to are Sitka. I'm not sure I've seen a moon spruce yet.

Do the gloss finish models also patina?

Here's mine. The 2011 model has Italian Spruce and is still pretty light compared to the Sitka 2010 model. I keep em out on stands all day in a bright room for what that's worth.

Those look great!

[247hoopsfan]

My Sitka tops have noticeably turned a natural amber color. From left to right, 1998 D10 Brazilian, 2007 JCL 40th Anniversary Edition, 1998 D09 Brazilian.



This is the JCL 40th about 10 years ago,you can see the top is much lighter.

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2j8gY5Y"]

[fantex]

My Sitka tops have noticeably turned a natural amber color. From left to right, 1998 D10 Brazilian, 2007 JCL 40th Anniversary Edition, 1998 D09 Brazilian.



This is the JCL 40th about 10 years ago,you can see the top is much lighter.

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2j8gY5Y"]

Wow, those are really getting dark. Nice.

[B0WIE]

I feel like it hasn't been that long since Larrivee started making the moonwood tops, so maybe it's too early to see how dark they get?

300 year old moonwood top;

[StringPicker6]

That's some nice quartersawn silking with some bearclaw and tight even grain on that 300 year old fiddle!!! I think it's an 03 series based on the satin finish. Fretboard could use some hydration, and I would use elixir lights if I had that fiddle.
 

[William2]

Do moon spruce tops have less of a darkening affect over time? I am considering two Larrivee instruments. One has a moon spruce top and the other a Sitka top. Visually I prefer the moon spruce top with its tighter grain structure. It also appears to lighter in color. The Sitka has a very straight but wider grain structure. Of course, sound will be the determining factor. I have heard the Sitka instrument and was very impressed. My dealer is preparing a video on the moon spruce instrument.

I guess I like a variety of patinas. My SD-40RW has 20+ year old Sitka and is dark. And my D-40R has moon spruce and is still quite white. As far as my choice of instruments, I decided to go with the D-40 with moon spruce top wood. My dealer, Dave Dalton at Woodstock School of Music didn't have time to do a comparison video. He did however make some sound clips of the two instruments and sent them to me. He didn't tell which one was which and labeled them sample A and sample B. He asked me what I thought and liked and then said he would give me his opinion. The samples were so close sound wise I had to listen to them several times. I ultimately chose sample B. I preferred the top notes on this instrument. Also, Dave had made a video of the D-40 some months ago. The instrument had such a nice long sustain and sounded great fingerstyle. The first sound clip he played ended with a long-sustained chord. I was surprised that the B sample didn't quite have this and attributed it to this chord maybe was played differently. That long sustain was just like the D-40 Sitka in the video. Dave confirmed that the instruments were so close and that he did indeed play that last chord a bit more pianissimo on the B sample. Dave thought the D-40 with the moon spruce was a bit more open in his opinion. The closeness in sound coupled with my preference for a tight grained top led me choose the D-40 moon spruce instrument. It should arrive Thursday. Dave is great to work with and really wants you to be happy with your instrument.

[jpmist]

The ones I'm referring to are Sitka. I'm not sure I've seen a moon spruce yet.

Do the gloss finish models also patina?

Those look great!

Thanks! The left and center are gloss tops. I could be wrong, but I'd read that Moon Spruce is the same or similar to European Spruce which includes Italian Spruce. Googling that is a nightmare so I'll bow to wiser minds . . .

[mike in lytle]

Here are two pics of the F-VI  moonwood top, taken two years ago, and then today, in similar conditions. The darkening is not as fast or dramatic as sitka, but it is apparent.

[B0WIE]

I could be wrong, but I'd read that Moon Spruce is the same or similar to European Spruce which includes Italian Spruce. Googling that is a nightmare so I'll bow to wiser minds . . .

You're correct. It's typically Alpine spruce (Swiss, Italian, etc). "Moon" refers to the lunar cycle when they harvest the lumber, so there's less sap in the trunk. This is not something new. That's why I posted the pic of the Strad. But, the technique pre-dates Antonio Stradivari and extends as far away as Japan. Instrument makers have been using Alpine moon spruce even longer than Sitka so we know how it looks when it ages. My 1st Larrivee was an Italian spruce L-03 so I researched the hell out of this topic back then. 

 Spruces in general have certain visual characteristics. Sitka gets a reddish/brown coloration fairly quickly while Engleman has a sort of yellow tone that doesn't seem to get as dark. Alpine/moon varieties are known for starting very white but they will gain a nice tan color. You can see the start of it in Mike's pic above. Makes his F-VI look like one of those high-end luthier built guitars that cost $15k because many of those builders use EU spruce and similar clean lines. In fact, some of those builders were trained by Jean.

[jpmist]

Great stuff Bowie,  thanks for confirming. During my google-dive I hit upon this gem on the subject. I'm all for creative lunacy and this from a "Jeff M" @ AGF hit the spot.       

""Moon Spruce" otherwise known as "Markitus gimmicus", is a VERY RARE wood that is harvested just ONCE A YEAR at midnight during a FULL MOON on the SPRING EQUINOX.

The tradition goes back to the days of the early pagan vikings, when they noticed that certain wood they used to burn virgins at the funeral pyre of their cheiftans made them scream in a very melodic way.

The tradition carry downs to today...albeit without the burning...where the trees are harvested at midnight surrounded by a chorus of scantily clad virgins () and drunken loggers singing rowdy viking pillaging songs.

The felled tree is then massaged with aromatic oils by said virgins which is said to increase it's girth () (BTW, this is where a certain term was coined re; "woody"  ) and carried on the back of a team of Clydesdales to the local certified "Moon Spruce" mill, where it is rendered by hand to the appropriate sized blanks.

From there, it is sent on a 5 year around the world cruise aboard a reproduction of an authentic Viking ship for "seasoning", and shipped to it's end destination!!

(In reality, "Moon Spruce" (ie "Alpine Spruce") is the same species as "European Spruce" aka "Italian Spruce" aka "German Spruce" aka "Bosnian Spruce" aka...pick your European country. A link to a site disusing the issue;
http://www.lutherie.net/eurospruce.html)

[StringPicker6]

 

Just watch out you don't get any sacrificial blood in your soundhole!