How Much Does Soundboard Wood Choice Affect Tone Quality

[William2]

A couple of days ago, I delisted an Eastman E-10DL I was offering on Reverb. I had strung it down, packed it away, and haven't given it a thought for 5 months. I bought it to experience an Adirondack top soundboard. At the time I decided I preferred Sitka. Anyway, 5 months ago I also had a Martin DSS-17. Both instruments had a mahogany body. The Eastman had the Adirondack top, and the Martin had a Sitka top. I remember how dry and woody sounding the Martin was compared to the Eastman. Both instruments were very powerful, and both were very responsive to a light finger attack. I attributed this to the Adirondack on the Eastman, and the very light construction on the Martin (3.8#). I wonder if these different wood types have more influence on sound than just the tone wood the body is made of. I'm glad the Eastman didn't sell. I have become a real fan of Adirondack for a soundboard these last few days. There is a punch to it and a sustain that is hard to match. And I think for a fingerstyle player who doesn't use nails, it gives you an edge to your attack that a plectrum player doesn't need. Lastly, I find it really sad that American makers don't use this wood. It comes from this country, and if they do use it, they always stick it to you on the price tag.

[Silence Dogood]

I sometimes wonder if stuff like this really matters all that much?  The reason why is because often times the very same model of guitar made with the exact same materials will sound different.  It seems like it has to do with how this or that particular guitar was put together, sanded, prepped, etc, etc.  I'm not sure it can be figured out entirely.

It also seems like we as players and gear-goofballs spend way too much energy on stuff like this.  I sometimes think of guys like Doc Watson and figure he probably never talked about specs, but just played the hell out of whatever guitar was in his life at the time.

Just this week I was getting (yet again) underwhelmed with the tone of my own guitar (I only have one).  Then I did a quick video to send a song idea to a friend and was listening to what my guitar sounded like on the other side of it.  I kept thinking: Dang, this guitar sounds great. 

Sometimes we just need to see things from another angle, and sometimes we just need to get on with the business of playing, learning more songs, and getting better at music.  And being thankful that we get to own some of the best guitars in the world while doing it. 

[ducktrapper]

Every guitar has to be judged as an individual and no matter what it's made of I sound just like me. 

[B0WIE]

Aside from the bracing, size, and construction techniques, the top is the most important factor. You can't compare two different instruments and evaluate the top. It's really gotta be identical instruments.

Even when they're the same species from the same log, top pieces can vary quite a lot. Most of your response, sustain, and tone are in that top, even though people only talk about the back wood. Tops are fascinating but, given that choices have historically been limited, it's a low interest subject.

Regarding Adi, there's not enough to make it feasible for all US makers to use it. It's also expensive relative to Sitka.

[William2]

Aside from the bracing, size, and construction techniques, the top is the most important factor. You can't compare two different instruments and evaluate the top. It's really gotta be identical instruments.

Even when they're the same species from the same log, top pieces can vary quite a lot. Most of your response, sustain, and tone are in that top, even though people only talk about the back wood. Tops are fascinating but, given that choices have historically been limited, it's a low interest subject.

Regarding Adi, there's not enough to make it feasible for all US makers to use it. It's also expensive relative to Sitka.

Good points. Today I was watching a video of a luthier named Tom Sands. He was comparing Engelman spruce against Moon Spruce. They had nearly identical density and stiffness, but there were differences in his tap tests. He then compared them to Cedar which was much softer and less stiff. Then he talked about how he would have to sand down the spruce to get the same flexibility of the red cedar. I do think certain models of instruments have a general sound characteristic like the Waterloo instruments. And I've found that how the instrument is played really can make a sound difference. I recently have changed my finger plucking attack from an attack from the knuckles to using a finger attack from the middle joint. This coupled without using nails has given my plying a much warmer sound and for me, a better balance of voices within a chord. Maybe it has to do with the higher tension of steel strings opposed to nylon. Another thing is after going back to the Larrivee's with a spruce top after a few days of Adirondack, I think I still prefer this sound over Adirondack for my playing.

[eded]

Aside from the bracing, size, and construction techniques, the top is the most important factor. You can't compare two different instruments and evaluate the top. It's really gotta be identical instruments.

Even when they're the same species from the same log, top pieces can vary quite a lot. Most of your response, sustain, and tone are in that top, even though people only talk about the back wood. Tops are fascinating but, given that choices have historically been limited, it's a low interest subject.

Regarding Adi, there's not enough to make it feasible for all US makers to use it. It's also expensive relative to Sitka.

In my (probably limited) experience...  there is as much variation in multiple examples of the same make/model (often with sequential serial numbers) as there is between same materials examples of differing models.

Ed

[gtrplayer]

I'm of the opinion that spruce is spruce and that each guitar has to be judged on its own.  I believe that adirondack got its wow factor from old Martins and how they sounded. The key factor being old.  Back in the 60/70s I recall most luthiers specified tight grain as what made a guitar sound good.  Larrivee anniversary guitars are all tight-grained tops.  Is that an old habit from an old luthier?  Esthetics plays a part I'm sure but in my experience the ones I've played all sounded pretty good.  I've played and owned adirondack, sitka and europian spruce and it's hard for me to say one is better than another.  I do know that there is a significant upcharge for different tops from some mfrs but is it warranted?  YMMV   

[William2]

I'm of the opinion that spruce is spruce and that each guitar has to be judged on its own.  I believe that adirondack got its wow factor from old Martins and how they sounded. The key factor being old.  Back in the 60/70s I recall most luthiers specified tight grain as what made a guitar sound good.  Larrivee anniversary guitars are all tight-grained tops.  Is that an old habit from an old luthier?  Esthetics plays a part I'm sure but in my experience the ones I've played all sounded pretty good.  I've played and owned adirondack, sitka and europian spruce and it's hard for me to say one is better than another.  I do know that there is a significant upcharge for different tops from some mfrs but is it warranted?  YMMV   

I'm of the opinion that spruce is spruce and that each guitar has to be judged on its own.  I believe that adirondack got its wow factor from old Martins and how they sounded. The key factor being old.  Back in the 60/70s I recall most luthiers specified tight grain as what made a guitar sound good.  Larrivee anniversary guitars are all tight-grained tops.  Is that an old habit from an old luthier?  Esthetics plays a part I'm sure but in my experience the ones I've played all sounded pretty good.  I've played and owned adirondack, sitka and europian spruce and it's hard for me to say one is better than another.  I do know that there is a significant upcharge for different tops from some mfrs but is it warranted?  YMMV   

I agree every guitar has to be judged on its own.  Many of my preconceptions of what made a guitar do this or that have been dispelled by comparing two different guitars together. I own two Larrivee's, one with a moon spruce top and the other with very tight grained 20+ year old Sitka spruce top. I can't hear the difference between these two instruments with the exception of the bridge location and body shape one being more open and easily responsive and the other have a really nice sustain. And I own an Eastman E-10DL with an Adirondack top. And here I can hear the difference between Adirondack and Sitka. And as a fingerstyle Player, the response difference of these two woods is very noticeable to me also. I do like both, but for different reasons. I think ultimately my preference with be decided over time and which wood allows me to accomplish what I am trying to do interpretively.  As far as wood up charges by American makers, I'm not playing that game. I don't know how Eastman can make a good instrument with an Adi top without the $800 to $1000 upcharge by an American maker.

[ducktrapper]

I don't know how Eastman can make a good instrument with an Adi top without the $800 to $1000 upcharge by an American maker.

Slave labor?

[gtrplayer]

Slave labor?

Slave labor?  Perhaps. Eastman is fairly new to guitar mfg so it would behoove them to "lowball" their offerings gradually to compete for market share.  Some might call this process "dumping" which is a known trait of Far East mfrs.  I believe their quality or lack of will decide their future.   

[ducktrapper]

Slave labor?  Perhaps. Eastman is fairly new to guitar mfg so it would behoove them to "lowball" their offerings gradually to compete for market share.  Some might call this process "dumping" which is a known trait of Far East mfrs.  I believe their quality or lack of will decide their future.   

I try not to buy mainland Chinese products whenever possible. I don't care how good or cheap they are. Slave labor is not far from the truth, if at all.

[kevbroce]

I would be shocked if Dana Bourgeois would partner with Eastman if this was the case in the Eastman factory.

Does China have issues, yes, and they're appalling.  But I have no problem supporting someone building quality instruments, in China or anywhere else, unless there's reason to believe in questionable ethics are involved.  Shoot, I encourage it.  I'd argue we don't need more natural resources going towards crappy, practically disposable instruments, that are produced in massive volumes every year.  Eastmans don't fall in this category, they're decent guitars and I'm glad they're made.  People speak highly of Seagull guitars, and my Eastman is much nicer than my Seagull. I haven't any reason to assume there are ethical issues at Eastman, and based on Dana's involvement, I feel safe to assume there isn't major issue.  I could be wrong, but what reason is there to assume this? Because they're Chinese?

And the US isn't perfect it's labor practices, either. Even recently - child labor in hazardous meat processing jobs?  13 year olds working hazardous, overnight jobs cleaning bone saws?  Yikes. 

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20230217-1

Progress isn't zero sum.  We don't win because China loses. We don't lose because China wins. 

[kevbroce]

I have become a real fan of Adirondack for a soundboard these last few days. There is a punch to it and a sustain that is hard to match. And I think for a fingerstyle player who doesn't use nails, it gives you an edge to your attack that a plectrum player doesn't need. Lastly, I find it really sad that American makers don't use this wood. It comes from this country, and if they do use it, they always stick it to you on the price tag.

Back on topic - I have a Adi/Red Spruce toped Santa Cruz mahogany dreadnaught. As a pick player, it's incredible - this guitar has practically limitless headroom with amazing tone (if you're looking for a vintage D-18 on steroids). You find Adirondack on some higher end Martins, and often is an option for boutique builders - at a massive cost these days.  My understanding is that quality and availability were very limited for a period, but the new growth is reaching maturity for some guitar use.  Eastman uses it a lot on their higher end traditional series, but look at the grain/color quality and book matching, it's not often top grade.

I think the general internet consensus is adirondack for pickers, sitka for fingerpickers. And there's lots of general descriptions written about these two woods by many different guitar manufactures and luthiers.  But I don't take generalities like that to heart completely, there so much more that goes into a guitar build.  Quality is more important than the type of wood.  Bracing patterns, top thickness, body style, finish type, thickness and all the other details skilled luthiers take into account. Wood species is just a piece of the puzzle.  An important one, definitely, but just a piece. Like people say all the time that Cedar isn't for Flatpicking, just fingerpicking.  I'm pretty certain I read Santa Cruz build Tony Rice a cedar toped dread as an early signature model, and he loved it...

[ducktrapper]

I would be shocked if Dana Bourgeois would partner with Eastman if this was the case in the Eastman factory.

Does China have issues, yes, and they're appalling.  But I have no problem supporting someone building quality instruments, in China or anywhere else, unless there's reason to believe in questionable ethics are involved.  Shoot, I encourage it.  I'd argue we don't need more natural resources going towards crappy, practically disposable instruments, that are produced in massive volumes every year.  Eastmans don't fall in this category, they're decent guitars and I'm glad they're made.  People speak highly of Seagull guitars, and my Eastman is much nicer than my Seagull. I haven't any reason to assume there are ethical issues at Eastman, and based on Dana's involvement, I feel safe to assume there isn't major issue.  I could be wrong, but what reason is there to assume this? Because they're Chinese?

And the US isn't perfect it's labor practices, either. Even recently - child labor in hazardous meat processing jobs?  13 year olds working hazardous, overnight jobs cleaning bone saws?  Yikes. 

https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20230217-1

Progress isn't zero sum.  We don't win because China loses. We don't lose because China wins. 

Well, you keep telling yourself that.  There is no shortage of fine American made guitars, none of which use even a whiff of slave labor, including the models made by the company that lends its name to this forum.  And, of course, if you have any concerns about the environmental impact of manufacturing, the Chinese don't. 

[kevbroce]

Well, you keep telling yourself that.  There is no shortage of fine American made guitars, none of which use even a whiff of slave labor, including the models made by the company that lends its name to this forum. 

Well. My Eastman is a thinline, all solid wood, floating bridge archtop guitar I bought 11 years ago. Please point me in the direction of this style guitar, from a American manufacture, at a price that a recent college grad straight into the great recession, would have been able to afford. Shame on me I guess...

Question - How would you feel about Larrivee if manufacturing was still located in Canada?

I've worked for companies that manufacture goods in California and Germany.  I applaud those that manufacture products in my home country, even more my home state, but I don't fault my German employers for being based in Germany.  Should I? Should I stop working for my German employer because their not American? WWII wasn't that long ago... Safe to say that there's some terrible history between my Americans friends and family, and my Germans friends and their families. But I very much appreciate and enjoy this part of my life and I'm glad that this is even an opportunity for me. The US and Germany didn't not have to reach this point.

Should I fault a Chinese born, American educated musician/businessman for growing a business building affordable quality instrument in his home country? Should I assume the worst in them because I dislike their government?  I don't think so.


Man! My first post here are rough... I just wanted to learn about some nice guitars lol.  I'm about an hour from Larrivee and really admire what I know about the family business. 

[ducktrapper]

Well. My Eastman is a thinline, all solid wood, floating bridge archtop guitar I bought 11 years ago. Please point me in the direction of this style guitar, from a American manufacture, at a price that a recent college grad straight into the great recession, would have been able to afford. Shame on me I guess...

Question - How would you feel about Larrivee if manufacturing was still located in Canada?

I've worked for companies that manufacture goods in California and Germany.  I applaud those that manufacture products in my home country, even more my home state, but I don't fault my German employers for being based in Germany.  Should I? Should I stop working for my German employer because their not American? WWII wasn't that long ago... Safe to say that there's some terrible history between my Americans friends and family, and my Germans friends and their families. But I very much appreciate and enjoy this part of my life and I'm glad that this is even an opportunity for me. The US and Germany didn't not have to reach this point.

Should I fault a Chinese born, American educated musician/businessman for growing a business building affordable quality instrument in his home country? Should I assume the worst in them because I dislike their government?  I don't think so.


Man! My first post here are rough... I just wanted to learn about some nice guitars lol.  I'm about an hour from Larrivee and really admire what I know about the family business. 

All I'm saying is that all the reasons the Chinese can make a nice guitar for so little are reasons that US (and Canadian) companies can't. Environmental and labor regulations etc. If you support these kind of regs, it makes no sense to tout Chinese products which are only as cheap as they are because they are not forced to follow any of them. I imagine Larrivee, manufacturing in California, are subject to more than a few of these costly additions to their building process. If you are willing to take advantage and buy Chinese products despite all of this, God bless you. It's a "free" country.   

https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/02/manufacturing-the-china-inc-model/

[kevbroce]

All I'm saying is that all the reasons the Chinese can make a nice guitar for so little are reasons that US (and Canadian) companies can't. Environmental and labor regulations etc. If you support these kind of regs, it makes no sense to tout Chinese products which are only as cheap as they are because they are not forced to follow any of them. I imagine Larrivee, manufacturing in California, are subject to more than a few of these costly additions to their building process. If you are willing to take advantage and buy Chinese products despite all of this, God bless you. It's a "free" country.   

https://www.marketplace.org/2021/02/02/manufacturing-the-china-inc-model/

I know this, I agree with this, but I wasn't thinking about it. Great point.

[William2]

Back on topic - I have a Adi/Red Spruce toped Santa Cruz mahogany dreadnaught. As a pick player, it's incredible - this guitar has practically limitless headroom with amazing tone (if you're looking for a vintage D-18 on steroids). You find Adirondack on some higher end Martins, and often is an option for boutique builders - at a massive cost these days.  My understanding is that quality and availability were very limited for a period, but the new growth is reaching maturity for some guitar use.  Eastman uses it a lot on their higher end traditional series, but look at the grain/color quality and book matching, it's not often top grade.

I think the general internet consensus is adirondack for pickers, sitka for fingerpickers. And there's lots of general descriptions written about these two woods by many different guitar manufactures and luthiers.  But I don't take generalities like that to heart completely, there so much more that goes into a guitar build.  Quality is more important than the type of wood.  Bracing patterns, top thickness, body style, finish type, thickness and all the other details skilled luthiers take into account. Wood species is just a piece of the puzzle.  An important one, definitely, but just a piece. Like people say all the time that Cedar isn't for Flatpicking, just fingerpicking.  I'm pretty certain I read Santa Cruz build Tony Rice a cedar toped dread as an early signature model, and he loved it...

I agree with most of this totally. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. I used to own a Martin DSS-17 (Sitka top) and comparing it with this Eastman E-10DL (Adirondack top), I found them equally powerful. The Martin had a larger body and a lighter build, and the Eastman had that Adirondack top. I find the Eatman instruments well built. I know American instruments cost more. My point was if you take a Martin model at a certain price and have them put an Adirondack top on it, the price really goes up. Why? They buy from the same place and don't have to ship the wood overseas. As a fingerstyle player, I don't have a top preference related to my plucking of te strings. It does feel like the Adirondack can't be overdriven no maker ow hard my attack is.

[jpmist]

Should I fault a Chinese born, American educated musician/businessman for growing a business building affordable quality instrument in his home country? Should I assume the worst in them because I dislike their government?  I don't think so.
Man! My first post here are rough... I just wanted to learn about some nice guitars lol.  I'm about an hour from Larrivee and really admire what I know about the family business. 


Speaking as one of the resident "liberal" types, I rarely venture into the political weeds here, just guitars. But it's interesting the vehemence that china guitars get here, but I'm open to them because I've picked up quite a few I'm impressed with.

Possibly what is damaging to the china reputation is that they're simply hired guns for USA named brands. It's Guild that designs the specs for their sub-$1K priced guitars and I've picked up several that were worth buying. Fender on the other hand will contract them to make a wooden box they'll sell for less than $200 bucks that is useful only as firewood.

I argue we live in a golden age for acoustics. There is no secret to how to make a nice sounding guitar acceptable to 90% of the buying public.

Hope you hang in with us greybeards here, I need someone younger to explain why Taylor Swift is so popular. . . 

[Queequeg]

I watched a couple of interesting videos this morning.
First, this quirky guy from the UK, calls himself "Silly Mustache".
Brings no scientific evidence but he's long on opinions and kinda fun to listen to, right or wrong.

Then I stumbled upon this thing from Yamaha called A.R.E. (Acoustic Resonance Enhancement).
They make it sound all sciencey but you know, they're selling it, so proceed with a modicum of cautious skepticism, I suppose.