OK, WE love our Larrivees, what else do you play?

[Strings4Him]

I have a few Collings guitars.
This is Bill Collings playing and signing one of them in March of 2016.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5MO4pdIilIxaG5QZEVyOS1ldzQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5MO4pdIilIxZ1hZdWQxYUhGSUU/view?usp=sharing

Great photos.  Hard to think he's not here anymore.

[Danny]

 The Collings (forum) gathering is this week in the Hill Country around Austin. I went to most of the events last year and played a new Collings 00, borrowed from a friend.
   That 00 sounds so big and so nice. I think it may be like the one Mark has.

[headsup]

 a couple vintage Godin guitars in the house now.
Mint "burl" Artisan TC, one of kind and a spectacular playing guitar.

Very lovely Godin "Flat Five" (24 fret) nice fat "woody" sound.
Both guitars are older, and have the best intonation imaginable.
top shelf materials and workmanship.

[AZLiberty]

I don't believe people who say they can identify a neck joint by ear.

Normally I can hear the difference between a Martin D-16 (simplified neck joint) and D-18  (pre 2012)  but that's because the bracing is also different to accommodate the M&T/simplified dovetail join.  The 16 style is usually brighter sounding.

With scalloped and shifted braces?  Be pretty hard to tell the difference I suspect.   I'm guessing this is a very responsive guitar.

Not a fan of gold hardware either, but I rather like the blacked out headstock overlay.  And you can never go wrong buying from Ted.  I'd like to see a pic of the entire headstock with the martin Logo against the black though.

[eded]

from flagstaffcharlie...  "I don't believe people who say they can identify a neck joint by ear."

2 things.....

1)I think there is more difference between 2 of a given model than the difference between neck joint on different models.

2)Sometimes we hear what we want to hear.

[L07 Shooting Star]

from flagstaffcharlie...  "I don't believe people who say they can identify a neck joint by ear."

2 things.....

1)I think there is more difference between 2 of a given model than the difference between neck joint on different models.

2)Sometimes we hear what we want to hear

I agree.  I think the advantage of being able to "reset" the neck on a bolt/screw-on neck guitar relatively easily, outweighs any sonic advantage a set-neck guitar might have.

[AZLiberty]

I agree.  I think the advantage of being able to "reset" the neck on a bolt/screw-on neck guitar relatively easily, outweighs any sonic advantage a set-neck guitar might have.

Other than Taylor and some Breedloves, most "bolt on" necks are also glued, so they need to be steamed off just like a dovetail.  Martin claims that their bolts only are used to hold the neck in place while the glue dries, but I still wouldn't recommend removing them just for kicks.

Once the neck is off, adjusting the angle is easier on an M&T than a dovetail, but most of the labor is still in getting the neck off.

[Mikeymac]

I agree.  I think the advantage of being able to "reset" the neck on a bolt/screw-on neck guitar relatively easily, outweighs any sonic advantage a set-neck guitar might have.

That's you, but there are players who would rather have that "slight sonic advantage" that might be there with a dovetail neck joint. Otherwise why would so many builders/luthiers still be using them?

[L07 Shooting Star]

That's you, but there are players who would rather have that "slight sonic advantage" that might be there with a dovetail neck joint.............

That's true for those who can actually hear an improvement with a glued-in neck and aren't concerned about degree of difficulty in resetting their necks in the future.  A "dovetail joint" is not technically synonymous with a "glued-in" neck.  So do you mean specifically a dovetail joint, whether glued or bolted-on, sounds superior to any other kind of joint?  Or that any style joint, dovetail or not, will sound superior if it's glued in place instead of bolted?

.......... Otherwise why would so many builders/luthiers still be using them?

Good question.  Superior sound (one would hope)?  Traditional methods are a selling feature for typically conservative potential buyers?  Factory tooling, machinery, programming, and training is already set up to do it a certain way that has worked great for decades?

[L07 Shooting Star]

Other than Taylor and some Breedloves, most "bolt on" necks are also glued, so they need to be steamed off just like a dovetail.  Martin claims that their bolts only are used to hold the neck in place while the glue dries, but I still wouldn't recommend removing them just for kicks...........

Remember also, that with almost any method of attachment, the fingerboard is glued to the top and has to be removed cleanly as well.

..........Once the neck is off, adjusting the angle is easier on an M&T than a dovetail, but most of the labor is still in getting the neck off.

Yes, that was my point;  especially with some glues.  Then once you get it off you have to remove all traces of glue on both the neck tenon and the mortise in the neck block.  Once the neck is off, the adjustment is done the same way regardless of how the neck was attached.  You shave or you shim in all the right places then either glue it back on or screw it back on.

[AZLiberty]

And if it's a nice Guild they went and finished it after the Dovetail neck was glued, so you have to carefully cut through the finish before you can even steam it. 

[George]

This has become quite the interesting thread, and I am enjoying the recent turn toward discussion of neck joining.  I own joins of nearly every type out there and believe any of them can be made to sound very good.  I was very surprised to learn that Dana Bourgeois also uses a bolt on neck design for his acoustic guitars.  They not only bolt the neck join, but also bolt on the fretboard extension.  The bolt on neck looks just like a dovetail join from the outside and, coupled with the Bourgeois top voicing techniques and an Aged Tone top, it would be difficult to distinguish it from any dovetail join in terms of tonal quality and harmonic content.  All in all they are pretty remarkable guitars IMHO...

[Strings4Him]

This has become quite the interesting thread, and I am enjoying the recent turn toward discussion of neck joining.  I own joins of nearly every type out there and believe any of them can be made to sound very good.  I was very surprised to learn that Dana Bourgeois also uses a bolt on neck design for his acoustic guitars.  They not only bolt the neck join, but also bolt on the fretboard extension.  The bolt on neck looks just like a dovetail join from the outside and, coupled with the Bourgeois top voicing techniques and an Aged Tone top, it would be difficult to distinguish it from any dovetail join in terms of tonal quality and harmonic content.  All in all they are pretty remarkable guitars IMHO...

My experience too George.

[ST]

Maybe this bolt-on neck business has got something to do with the stigma of decades-old memories of guitars like this.



I had a guitar like this and I took it apart to fathom the mysteries of the guitar. And this took some of the magic out of it.

I came to associate solid woods, glued-in necks, and things that took a craftsman (crafts person) to adjust as as the marques of lasting quality.  A guitar that a kid with a screwdriver could disassemble couldn't compete.


ST

[Mikeymac]

That's you, but there are players who would rather have that "slight sonic advantage" that might be there with a dovetail neck joint. Otherwise why would so many builders/luthiers still be using them?

Good question.  Superior sound (one would hope)?  Traditional methods are a selling feature for typically conservative potential buyers?  Factory tooling, machinery, programming, and training is already set up to do it a certain way that has worked great for decades?

I don't doubt that most folks can't tell the difference between the tone of a dovetail glued in neck and a bolted neck of any type joint. I was just making the point that there are plenty of traditionally minded customers (some of whom are sure they CAN tell the difference) who want guitars with a dovetail neck joint, therefore there's a market for them that both large companies and small builders are accommodating.

[George]

My experience too George.

Most of my guitars I would categorize in the "1 in 100" range for the make/model, how well it plays and how great it sounds.  And yes, I had to buy and sell a lot of them to accomplish that.  I have tried to discriminate tonal nuances ever since the early '70's when I was first exposed to true audiophile quality recording and reproduction.  Early on I believe I believed way too much of what I read about guitar construction techniques and why each one was supposedly so much better than the others...  In my actual experience, I have found that a truly great quality guitar with outstanding build quality, playability and tonal characteristics can be found in every single one of them, assuming you hunt only for the minimum of those that meet the "1 in 100" category.  I would rate my Bourgeois as "1 in 10,000" and they haven't even made that overall quantity of them yet (~8k).  I also put some of my Larrivee's, Northwood's and Morgan's in that narrow category as well...  In the end, it is most likely about what satisfies the individual listener's ear the most that really counts isn't it?

[L07 Shooting Star]

I don't doubt that most folks can't tell the difference between the tone of a dovetail glued in neck and a bolted neck of any type joint. I was just making the point that there are plenty of traditionally minded customers (some of whom are sure they CAN tell the difference) who want guitars with a dovetail neck joint, therefore there's a market for them that both large companies and small builders are accommodating.

I think we can agree on that.   

[RandyB]

Stonebridge/Furch G23CR-C  Cedar top and Rosewood back and sides. Totally different voice than my Larrivée OM-40R and wider nut at 45 mm but I LOVE it for finger style!


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