Do Larrivee specs descriptions distinguish between sapele and mahogany?

[ewalling]

I've noticed on the Guitar Adoptions site it says Larrivee no longer includes the origin of the mahogany used on a guitar in its specs. Does this mean that no distinction is made between sapele and mahogany? I think I've heard that some people say that sapele is "African" mahogany, as opposed to South American. Anyone know about this?

[Strings4Him]

As far as I know, Larrivee has consistently distinguished between sapele and mahogany.  I was told however that Larrivee has been using interchangably both khaya and South American as mahogany.

[lmacmil]

I think I've heard that some people say that sapele is "African" mahogany, as opposed to South American. Anyone know about this?

The botanists will tell you that sapele (which does come from Africa) is a different wood than mahogany, not even the same family.  It apparently has similar tonal characteristics and is cheaper than mahogany which I suppose is why many guitar makers are using it as a substitute.  I'd be willing to be that 9 out of 10 people couldn't tell the difference based on the sound.

[ewalling]

Yes, no slight was intended against sapele; I was just wondering if buyers who did have a preference for one wood-type over the other needed to keep this in mind when buying a new Larrivee.

[Walkerman]

As far as I know, Larrivee has consistently distinguished between sapele and mahogany.  I was told however that Larrivee has been using interchangably both khaya and South American as mahogany.

If you have a Larrivee hog guitar, you most likely have both...SA mahogany neck and khaya B/S.
We all know JCL as a "wood expert without equal".....he prefers khaya for back and sides.

[Michael T]

I wonder when that change took place? My 2008 12er clearly stated South American B/S/Neck.

[Strings4Him]

Yes, no slight was intended against sapele; I was just wondering if buyers who did have a preference for one wood-type over the other needed to keep this in mind when buying a new Larrivee.

It is interesting to note that when I called Martin Guitars' Customer Service Department, they were unclear what their reference to GENUINE MAHOGANY means.  There seems to be a general confusion in the industry's method of marketing.  I think it would be best for guitar makers to state the exact species of woods.  I don't think that would be too difficult to do.

[Denis]

I used to own an early OM-03SP which was actually from a custom series Larrivee did before making the switch.  I also owned a sapele Martin 000-15S.  Both of these guitars were great sounding and beautiful to look at.   

[sgarnett]

Martin also uses Spanish Cedar for their necks. It isn't Spanish or Cedar. The trade names for wood can be very misleading.

[L07 Shooting Star]

This kind of confusion is why common names for plants and animals are never used in science.  Game fish is a good example.  If I'm in Saskatchewan and I catch a "pickerel"  I'm catching a fish that would likely be called a Walleye in eastern Canada.  If I catch a "pickerel" in Ontario, I'm catching a fish that would likely be called a "pike" in Alberta of Saskatchewan.

The only way to describe exactly what wood is being used in a guitar or cabinet or piece of furniture would be to use the scientific name.  And that ain't gonna happen.

[peterh]

 

I have to say thatover here in the UK we're a it confused by this continual discussion.  Eiither the  extra dollar is excplicable or it's not.

I have a OM O5 which I love the sound of but for me it is too tight. 
Is this the real problem? 

Or is the real problem that a good value  guitar , is threatened by the recent  02 which again doesn't distinguish between sapele or mahogany.   

So  maybe despite the good value L A is cooking its own goose.l




                                   
ttps://getmessage.virginmobile.co.uk/mmcp/Render/index.jsp
wehat is stopping me keeping iot.  it juswtb doesn't get me to vlote for it.

[superdave]

I recently purchased a new L-03 mt, and although the lable says nothing other than L-03 it is most definitely maahogany. I have a OM-03 with a sapele back and sides and you can clearly see the difference between the both. When I called Larrivee about my guitar they said it was infact mahogany but could not tell it's origin.
Thanks, Dave

[BenF]

I have noticed something, that may not be 100% the case, but seems to be true of the majority of cases i read about on here.  Most established members on this forum would know immediately what guitar was Mahogany and what was Khaya and what was Sapele by looking at them.  I am not a luthier, and I am not a good guitarist, but I have done my homework well enough to tell the difference in appearance.

Most people who come on here asking the question are relatively new members, who buy a guitar for its price, playability, tone, feel, and then want to know more about it.  When they come here and people rave on about how JCL does mahogany better than anyone, and the quality of one tonewood over another, and that Larrivee use all three, they want to know what they have, and at that point the realisation that their guitar is Khaya is a disappointment in some way.

I think many people are misled between traditional tonewoods, rarity of tonewoods, cost of tonewoods and the performance of tonewoods.  Khaya is a very close relative of SA mahogany, but is grown in bulk in the far east, and is thus cheaper.  Sapele is a more distant relative of the mahogany plant, but is an excellent tonewood, again cheaper due to its abundance in Africa.  They are all subtally different in performance. 

They are all, however, excellent woods, chosen by JCL who few would dispute knows his stuff with woods. 

Discovering your sitka/mahogany Larrivee is actually Sapele is not a disaster.  It's just a name.  It still sounds the same!

[Walkerman]

I think it is a matter of availability and NOT cost when it comes to SA mahogany and African mahogany (Khaya).  Moreover, I have had conversations with both Jean Claude and Matthew, and they have explained that what SA hog is available is not the best choice for b/s.  They use SA hog for necks, but khaya for b/s because it is BETTER.  It is cleaner, better looking and more workable.  It is most definitely NOT a function of cost.

[GA-ME]

I can't say either Khaya or SA Hog are superior to the other as a tonewood. I think both woods can make outstanding guitars.  However, Khaya IS SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER than  Honduran Mahogany for equivalent quality sets. The use of Khaya by Larrivee in exchange for SA Mahogany is clearly a cost saving measure. The reason they use the SA Mahogany for the necks is SA Mahogany is noticeably more dimensionally stable, in comparison to Khaya, once dried, which matters greatly when making necks, but doesn't really matter so much in the back and sides. The statement that the SA Mahogany available isn't the best choice for back and sides simply isn't true. That statement needs to be qualified to read:  The SA Mahogany available, in the same PRICE range as Khaya, isn't as suitable for back and side sets as the Khaya. There is plenty of high quality SA Mahogany available for back and side sets. However, it will likely cost two times, or more, per finished set, as an equivalent quality Khaya set. The information ostensibly passed to Walkerman is simply Larrivee's spin for their choice in using the Khaya. Walkerman reliably delivered the spin to the forum as intended. That being said, I really don't think it makes a difference. Both woods make great guitars and both woods ARE from the Meliaceae family.

[Walkerman]

I can't say either Khaya or SA Hog are superior to the other as a tonewood. I think both woods can make outstanding guitars.  However, Khaya IS SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER than  Honduran Mahogany for equivalent quality sets. The use of Khaya by Larrivee in exchange for SA Mahogany is clearly a cost saving measure. The reason they use the SA Mahogany for the necks is SA Mahogany is noticeably more dimensionally stable, in comparison to Khaya, once dried, which matters greatly when making necks, but doesn't really matter so much in the back and sides. The statement that the SA Mahogany available isn't the best choice for back and sides simply isn't true. That statement needs to be qualified to read:  The SA Mahogany available, in the same PRICE range as Khaya, isn't as suitable for back and side sets as the Khaya. There is plenty of high quality SA Mahogany available for back and side sets. However, it will likely cost two times, or more, per finished set, as an equivalent quality Khaya set. The information ostensibly passed to Walkerman is simply Larrivee's spin for their choice in using the Khaya. Walkerman reliably delivered the spin to the forum as intended. That being said, I really don't think it makes a difference. Both woods make great guitars and both woods ARE from the Meliaceae family.

And you know this because you are actually MAKING guitars using both SA hog and African hog, so you can personally make the comparison?
No....... I didn't think so.  I'll take Matt and JC's words that they know what they are talking about.

[BenF]

And you know this because you are actually MAKING guitars using both SA hog and African hog, so you can personally make the comparison?
No....... I didn't think so.  I'll take Matt and JC's words that they know what they are talking about.

I think the answer to your question is yes, yes he is making guitars using these woods, and takes the quality and suitability of the woods he chooses very seriously. Whilst I don't doubt JCL and families unrivalled knowledge of woods, I don't necessarily think they would happily say anything to suggest they choose one wood over another because of cost. I know you are close to them, so you know better than I. However, I know how much GA-ME knows about guitar building and tonewoods, and wouldn't question his knowledge.

You have JCLs spin, GA-ME has gone out and purchased the wood to make guitars with, with expert tuition.

[Walkerman]

I think the answer to your question is yes, yes he is making guitars using these woods, and takes the quality and suitability of the woods he chooses very seriously. Whilst I don't doubt JCL and families unrivalled knowledge of woods, I don't necessarily think they would happily say anything to suggest they choose one wood over another because of cost. I know you are close to them, so you know better than I. However, I know how much GA-ME knows about guitar building and tonewoods, and wouldn't question his knowledge.

You have JCLs spin, GA-ME has gone out and purchased the wood to make guitars with, with expert tuition.

Spin?  I don't think so.  The fact that you refer to GAME great luthier's skill and knowledge, and yet refer to JCL's "spin" kinda shows your bias.  I'll take Jean Claude's knowledge of woods anytime.
OTOH...I still love scotch.....

[Walkerman]

"...And yet you happily shrug off the knowledge of someone you don't know...."

Well, yeah.....I've read enough of his posts to make up my  mind on that one.

[BenF]

Walkerman, why reply by PM to be discreet, encourage me to delete my post, and then quote parts of it on the public forum? We've had our disagreements in the past, but I am shocked that anyone would act like this on such a well mannered forum. I'm not petty enough to hit the ignore button, but my opinion of you has dropped to an all time low.