Larrivee lovebites

[Yoyodyne]

I'm making a case that a clean guitar means that it's a clean guitar - full stop, nothing more, no values, bagage, or subtext added re; the player ability to play the instrument in question.

[GA-ME]

I'm making a case that a clean guitar means that it's a clean guitar - full stop, nothing more, no values, bagage, or subtext added re; the player ability to play the instrument in question.

d.

Entirely possible that a guitar that gets played a lot can remain virtually pristine, I don't doubt or deny that. A friend of mine who is one of the best guitarists I know has an app. 17 year old SCGC that is nearly pristine, other than a few pick swirls and some fingerboard wear, and he gigs with it nearly daily. However, the more a guitar is out the case the more likely it is to get dinged and bumped and PLAYED. I guess my point is that a ding and getting played is far preferable than a wonderful instrument that meets its fate in a case under some bed when some guitarist somewhere could be playing the crap out of it. To each their own value system.......................

As far as the case cover to covertly disguise the Carlton, I understand that as well. I understand the need for folks that travel a lot or who are touring performers to have a solid case for protection of the instrument as well. I think it is just the materialistic nature of folks that really don't need to have a case cover or a Carlton, but just have to have them to posses them while the guitar sits virtually idle that bugs me. It's like some people feel that by purchasing material goods they are automatically granted admittance to some club they wish to belong to but don't have the fortitude to do what is necessary to actually become proficient at the pursuit in which the club members engage.

I saw the same mentality when I used to long distance hike. I'd see weekend warriors come out with 2000 dollars worth of ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY gear that the magazines told them they just had to have to beat up on Ma Nature. Then, I saw myself and my friends, who I had been hiking with for months, manage quite well with 20 pounds of  homemade gear because we actually knew what we were doing and why we were out in the backcountry in the first place. Yup, different values I guess.

[cke]

Hey GA-ME, I seem to have been the one who ticked you off about trying to keep my git AND case in nice shape for as long as possible.  Why is trying to do so exclusive of trying first to serve the music?

My gits all get played as much as possible - but now live in cases because I live in a really dry climate. I would rather be a bit inconvenienced  and reduce damage. The instruments are built to last generations. Why not treat them with care?

Dings and worse happen in the course of life and use. Fine. You are lucky that you can do your own repairs. I can't, so the bad one's cost me serious money; why waste it when a little care will go along way.

And is it so bad to appreciate the beauty and craft that go into quality work?

[GA-ME]

Hey CKE it is not you, or necessarily your post, specifically that kind of "ticked" me off as you said.  Perhaps, I am crankier than usual with the rain and cold sending my neuropathic pain levels up the last couple of days. Sometimes, I think I spend way to much time on this forum and tend to catalog what I perceive to be silliness until my head wants to explode, only to end up posting things other folks look at as silliness, as well, which probably makes others' heads want to expode. Lets just say, I hate consumerism for the sake of consumerism. That is to say, buying things just so someone can make like Gollum and stare at their objects thinking "My little Precious", as much I I despise the concept of diversity being foisted upon folks simply for the sake of diversity. What can I say, I'm wired a bit off kilter and sometimes I just can't maintain the cover. So in a nutshell, I have nothing personal against you, nor against almost everyone else on the Forum.

As far as being lucky I can do my repairs, luck has nothing to do with it. I decided to learn how to do it, because I wanted to know how to do it. Any one else, with reasonable intellectual capacity and a strong desire, can repair or build their own instruments as well.

[Danny]

Hey CKE it is not you, or necessarily your post, specifically that kind of "ticked" me off as you said.  Perhaps, I am crankier than usual with the rain and cold sending my neuropathic pain levels up the last couple of days. Sometimes, I think I spend way to much time on this forum and tend to catalog what I perceive to be silliness until my head wants to explode, only to end up posting things other folks look at as silliness, as well, which probably makes others' heads want to expode. Lets just say, I hate consumerism for the sake of consumerism. That is to say, buying things just so someone can make like Gollum and stare at their objects thinking "My little Precious", as much I I despise the concept of diversity being foisted upon folks simply for the sake of diversity. What can I say, I'm wired a bit off kilter and sometimes I just can't maintain the cover. So in a nutshell, I have nothing personal against you, nor against almost everyone else on the Forum.

As far as being lucky I can do my repairs, luck has nothing to do with it. I decided to learn how to do it, because I wanted to know how to do it. Any one else, with reasonable intellectual capacity and a strong desire, can repair or build their own instruments as well.

Heh, does this mean there is an infectious disease that can be caught by spending too much time here?
               Cause everything you said makes total common sense to me.

[JOYCEfromNS]

Hey CKE it is not you, or necessarily your post, specifically that kind of "ticked" me off as you said.  Perhaps, I am crankier than usual with the rain and cold sending my neuropathic pain levels up the last couple of days. Sometimes, I think I spend way to much time on this forum and tend to catalog what I perceive to be silliness until my head wants to explode, only to end up posting things other folks look at as silliness, as well, which probably makes others' heads want to expode. Lets just say, I hate consumerism for the sake of consumerism. That is to say, buying things just so someone can make like Gollum and stare at their objects thinking "My little Precious", as much I I despise the concept of diversity being foisted upon folks simply for the sake of diversity. What can I say, I'm wired a bit off kilter and sometimes I just can't maintain the cover. So in a nutshell, I have nothing personal against you, nor against almost everyone else on the Forum.

As far as being lucky I can do my repairs, luck has nothing to do with it. I decided to learn how to do it, because I wanted to know how to do it. Any one else, with reasonable intellectual capacity and a strong desire, can repair or build their own instruments as well.

I guess we all have to accept we are all wired a little differently ( and that's a good thing) and an attempt to correlate an individuals play ability ( or lack of)with whether one takes many precautions to protect one's instrument is somewhat offensive and judgemental. Heck if someone wants to buy a guitar and put it in a glass case on the wall and view it as a piece of art who the heck are we to judge that person? IMHO some of the gits on this forum in such a display are lot prettier to my eye then many Picasso's I've seen BUT that's just my opinion. To judge others leaves one on a very slippery slope. I am done with this topic!!!!

[cke]

I like GA-ME when he is more reasoned - and he makes sense. I would disagree with the implication that mere desire and practice can lead to expertise. There are certain things I do extremely well - and carpentry at ANY level isn't one of them!

What I find absurd are efforts like the Martin D-100. All that ridiculous bling that doesn't add an ounce to the sound. And the price!! It would be ridiculous to play it.  Therefore I can't imagine ever wanting to own it.

GA-ME I am very sorry about your pain. I have chronic pain, too, but I'm sure nothing like you are dealing with. And mine is has never interfered with my playing.

Okay, everybody...deep cleansing breathes...focus on the music...

[Mr_LV19E]

So in a nutshell, I have nothing personal against you, nor against almost everyone else on the Forum.

[vates]

Just like to add one more point to be considered:
Every guitar has its own ding-karma, even if played by the same player ;)

[GA-ME]

I would disagree with the implication that mere desire and practice can lead to expertise.

Strong desire and practice ARE what ALWAYS lead to expertise. I still assert there are doers and excuse makers. Doers simply decide they want to accomplish something and they set about doing it. Excuse makers simply lack real desire and the motivation to actually learn how to complete some difficult task and set about wasting energy coming up with the excuses for their failure to achieve their "goal." The excuses serve to ease their dissonance when faced with failure resulting from their lack of discipline. The world is full of folks short on natural ability, but flush with real desire, focus and motivation. The world is also full of folks flush with LOTS of natural ability, but short on real desire, focus, and motivation. I'll let you guess at which group will become the experts in any gven pursuit.

[BenF]

I'll let you guess at which group will become the experts in any gven pursuit.

Not sure I agree with you there Jonathan, I believe that the experts at anything are generally those that have natural ability AND drive and determination.  Hence why there are so few experts.

having limited natural talent, but having the drive and determination to succeed comes a close second usually.

[GA-ME]

Ben:    "We agree that expert performance is qualitatively different from normal performance and even that expert performers have characteristics and abilities that are qualitatively different from or at least outside the range of those of normal adults. However, we deny that these differences are immutable, that is, due to innate talent. Only a few exceptions, most notably height, are genetically prescribed. Instead, we argue that the differences between expert performers and normal adults reflect a life-long period of deliberate effort to improve performance in a specific domain." (Ericsson, K. Anders,  Krampe, Ralf Th. and Tesch-Romer,Clemens,  Psychological Review, 1993, Vol. 100. No. 3, 363-406)

Complete article: http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf

This is a singular study, but there is a large body of research and most of it refutes the idea of innate ability and instead seems to indicate that about 10 years and 10,000 hours of focused, determined, effort is what accounts for "expertness"  YMMV, but I certainly prefer the theoretical framework which asserts that my ability to achieve is determined by my effort and not some genetic lottery.

[BenF]

It's certainly a very positive notion to direct towards many aspects of life in general.

I guess I look at things from my golf related background.  Not seeking to be big headed, but I had bundles of natural ability, but limited focus and desire to do it all my life.  Others around me had to work hard to compete with me.  Some continued to work hard, and have made progress in the professional game.  However, I see no future for them to this day other than a journeyman role on national golf tours, because they still lack that underlying natural talent.

They will make a good living, and to Mr Average they will be 'experts'.  They ain't no Tiger Woods though (reference is still golf, not driving a car in a straight line).

[flatlander]

Yes Ben, At least with guitar, the top of the heap almost always have three things going for them.
They started young, so brain and muscles grew with instrument, they had natural ability AND they worked very hard on it. GA-ME's attitude is correct though to me.
As far  as original topic I used to get frustrated or shake my head at people with a bunch of instruments they couldn't play well and spent more time thinking about buying new ones, being obsessed with wood types ect and not spending time practicing.
I got over that.
A good friend of mine and a great guy was always buying, selling spending all this time about details of build,
what plant they were made in ect. Yet when I showed him valuable stuff from my limited arsenal, he never really listened or practiced. This includes stuff I took time to write out. I realized how stupid it was of me to be a smart axx about it, or have any negitive feelings about it at all.
The players will be players and the hobbiest will be hobbiest, and that's all just fine.
I am glad my 000-60 is in really good shape though, as I may sell it one day. The other 2 really meet all my needs/wants and I could get something else with money from it.
Seeing GA-ME just added post I'll say this. I basically disagree with that from experience, at least concerning music.
I started as a teenager and practiced hours everyday. Lots of times 4-6 hours. Others picked up guitar and quickly played circles around me. My lead guitar player, when we were in our 20's, didn't know the names of even open chords. (he did know how to play them) His leads were almost always multiple notes at same time, all over neck. Double stops, thirds ect. He had no idea what he was doing he just did it. It wasn't til MANY years later as I continued working and studying, that I understood that what he had was a natural ability to see many different harmony options. Now I do that a lot, but still not as well as him. He still at 50 years old, can't explain what he's doing. I had to study and understand it and it just came natually to him.
Also there are emotional items that are the roll of the diice, that give you the drive to play. I often thought, and relating to myself at least, that sometimes people are filling a void when they are driven to play. Being hurt as I was after my first marraige split, brought out drive AND creativity. On the other hand some people are filled with a positive energy that needs released. So I don't know how the Dr's concluded what they did, but from my experience, I'd have to disagree.

[BenF]

I will keep seeking to be as good as I can be by the time I leave this world.  In reference to the thread topic, if that means my guitar wears out and gets a few dings along the way, so be it.

Achievement is better than stuff.

[cke]

I agree that determination and perseverance go along way; and MAY lead to competence. But they can't alone make someone great at something.  It can help make up for shortcomings.

Talent is that extra something that many possess for certain activities and it is sadly true that many waste it. GA-ME is to be admired for great drive and focus.

I come from a family of fine carpenters. No matter what they showed me or how much I tried, adequate was the best I ever achieved. That talent skipped me.

As Dirty Harry said, "A man has got to know his limitations."

And another annoying quote thrown at me germane to the topic of this thread, "Take care of your tools and they will take care of you."

[BenF]

GA-ME is to be admired for great drive and focus.

and a good deal of talent

[GA-ME]

 I guess that what it comes down to is I believe I can, and most frequently, I am correct. Others choose to believe they can't, and guess what, they are usually correct as well. It's funny the way that works.

[cke]

"Whether You Think You Can or Can't, You're Right"--Henry Ford

[GA-ME]

"Whether You Think You Can or Can't, You're Right"--Henry Ford