Larrivee volume / shaving braces

[leftync]

Very interesting discussion. I don't understand all of it, but I appreciate the information.
I had a D-03R, and it had a rich, deep tone that I just loved. I a/b'd it with a D-28 (both lefties!) and thought the Larrivee was everything the Martin was, but more and better.
I traded that one for an older Larrivee, a D-50 from the 90s with rosewood B&S, and thinner neck profile but wider nut, and--most relevant to this discussion, I think--an enlarged soundhole. The sound is very lively, but with lots of bass too. Each note is very pronounced and clear, strumming sound is amazing. Can't really compare sustain b/e I don't have another guitar around of its quality. But boy is it loud! It's one of the two or three loudest guitars I've ever heard. Enlarged soundholes were unheard of until Clarence White bought that beat-up D-28 with a makeshift fix. Still rare, but done on high end instruments. Would enlarging the soundhole do the same thing as shaving braced? Or the braces in the way?

[GA-ME]

GA-ME,  Sorry if I misread your comment.  Have a nice day, yourself.
Scott

Scott, no harm no foul.................I'm trying to have a nice day today!

Jeremy..... As far as my observation that the 12 Larrivees I've re-voiced all had louder low E and D strings, you say that the low E is quieter.  Must have been simply random chance that I found the only 12 made that exhibited this.  

Scott, my 000-60 also exhibits an anemic low E string. The A is the strongest, most present, of the wound strings on the guitar, followed closely by the D string. The low E is weaker in volume, and perhaps more importantly, it doesn't have the attack response of the other bass strings. It seems weaker getting the fundamental out on the low E, in comparison to all other strings. In other words, notes originating on the low E don't project as well as the other strings.This follows up the entire neck on that string.

I've sanded the X brace and both rear tonebars, as far  along the braces as I can reach. I didn't change the height of the braces, to any appreciable degree, just merely rounded all the 90 degree angles left from the original shaping done at the factory.  I didn't touch the front transverse brace at all, and as you said, the flat side braces leave little to work with at the outset. I created a thinner, more triangular/parabolic type profile, of the same height.

The overall voice/balance didn't change, string to string. The guitar simply was noticeably louder, with the biggest noticeable improvements being in the sustain and overtone components of the instrument. It took three times sanding the braces to get it where it is now with about 1-2 months playing time/settling in between sandings. I play the guitar, on average, approximately three hours per day. At this point, I don't think I'll mess with it anymore, because I feel I'd likely only create a different set of issues going forward from here. I don't know enough of the cause and effect of removing specific points on the individual braces to effect change in very specific frequencies. At the moment the only issue for me is the anemic low E.

I was out playing in a songwriting contest a couple of weeks ago and as I was picking, warming up before the competition, a fellow came up and commented on the sound of the instrument. He said, it was a pretty good sounding guitar. As we chatted, he mentioned he really liked the mids while the rest of his assessment of the instrument perfectly mirrored my thoughts of the guitar. I was picking Deep River Blues, at the time, which really shows the anemic nature of the low E contrasted with the power of the A. As it turns out, the fellow was luthier Ron Lucca, a fairly accomplished archtop builder. He has completed  159 guitars, and he apprenticed under John D'Angelico around 1976, I believe he said. So, I guess what I'm getting at is the Larrivee sounds pretty decent, but lacks low E volume/projection, and at this point in my learning curve, I don't feel like I can improve anything without great risk of causing a different set of problems. Scott, do you have any suggestions?

[Scott van Linge]

I think they do. Here's a picture of a Martin (serial# 1291860) with braces butted against the X.


Not really, I'm saying everyone has their preferences. It's fine if you like the sound of guitars with no braces butting against the X but a lot of builders don't care to do that.

I tend agree that rounding off the brace corners on most guitars would improve the sound but for a different reason - the stiffness to weight ratio. Of course in a typical guitar all the braces form corners where they are glued to the top anyway.

Jeremy, OK, the finger braces do have a minimum height (under 1/16") where they meet the X brace on that picture.  I don't consider this enough to make a big difference, although I might be able to find a few notes weaker on the B or high E strings due to it.  I had a conversation over lunch with John Grevin at the 2005 Healdsburg Guitar Festival about this very subject.  John said that old Martins had the finger and tonebar braces inlet to the X brace, but the ones I've seen were at about 1/8" high.  This was because those braces could pop loose with a blow to the top. 

And I was thinking about how Larrivee tonebars butt against the X brace at the full height of the X at that point.  This makes a major angled tee joint, which is very rigid and creates what I consider dead spots. 

I do not believe the corners of a brace where it is glued onto the top or back count as corners in terms of absorbing energy.  However, I have found it very important to maintain the parabolic cross section down to as close as possible to the glue line.

GA-ME,

These dead spots occur where the tonebars meet the X brace, and the Larrivees I've seen placed these in the G and A string rings, making them quieter than the D and low E.  However, due to geometry of  specific models, the lower tonebar butt joints could be quieting the E, not the A.  Variations in wood density or thickness can also change the diameter of any ring.

The low E on your OOO might be affected by the bridge, as well, considering your comment that it is weak all the way up the string.  The standard Larrivee bridge, similar to Martin style but sometimes even thicker, has a ridge on either end of the main body where the curved wings begin their descent.  Of course, this is also on the high E side.  I have found that these ridges can absorb energy from the top and bottom strings disproportionately more than the others due to proximity.  Rounding these and flowing the body into the wings can do a lot to even the response out.  There is a picture of a reshaped Guild bridge ow my website.

Another way to increase the low E volume is to work on the two lower back braces by flowing the squared off ends into the rest of the brace, making the overall length a parabolic form, as were vintage Martin back braces.  And sometimes, it necessary to reshape the 2nd back brace into a low parabola to allow the ring the low E resonates with to pass from one side of the lower bout to the other through the waist of the guitar. 

A place to start would be to make a sanding stick to reach down to where the lower tone bar meets the X and reduce that juction as low as possible and reshape it into a new parabolic shape lengthwise.  This takes me about 4 hours, which I spread out over a couple of sessions to avoid psychosis.  Then, round the X brace all the way to the kerfing.  That should improve the low E greatly.

Gotta go,


Scott

[lw216316]

Larrivee's are built strong - Paul Bunyan could play his Larrivee while riding on the back of his blue ox - Babe.

If a loud Larrivee is what you want - try an SD-50....
I'll bet you a giant ax and a blue ox it will be loud enough for you !

- Larry

[BluesMan1]

   OdiePiker, what gauge strings go you use on your SD-50? I have one, use mediums only (EJ-17's), and it is about the best dread I've ever played or heard. Needed no "tweaking" of the braces or anything. I'm assuming you're using mediums also. My SD has been compared to a much more expensive slope-shouldered Collings this guy has & after playing mine. I have a nice, balanced sound, nice treble when I play where I can accent them (closer to the bridge: still has nice highs), but not too much. Mine is an '05, not sure what yours is. Why all of the work on it unless it really needed it? I know you said it was cheap, so you'd play around with it, but unless something was wrong from the beginning, why do anything? Great sounding guitars from the start!
  And, once again, in the words of Rodney King, the great philosopher, "why can't we all get along?"?
    Jeff  
  And Jeremy, I had posted in the thread were you were talking about the black Buffalo horn nut, could you try a saddle first & let us know if the density of it makes a difference? Check my post out. Sorry to get off the subject, though I find all of this fascinating. Wouldn't try it myself. Just not skilled enough. Maybe I'll send it to Jeremy or GA-ME?
  And if this thread id going to get so technical, why isn't it in the technical area? My mind is going to explode from some of these posts. Of course, we all have our preferences, but shouldn't push them on others & say  it's the word. It's fun & cool to read about these ideas, but some of this is getting tit for tat, don't you think? Maybe agree to disagree?
   And Larry, you tell 'em!

[lw216316]

in the words of Rodney King, the great philosopher, "why can't we all get along?" 

bluesman , bluesman....you stole my line !!!
My line is,   "in the words of that great philosopher, "fill in the blank",    " fill in his saying "

like
in the words of that great philosopher, John McEnroe, "you can NOT be serious"

I only see 3 options in this case-
1. you owe me some royalties  (I like doughnuts with raspberry filling) 
2. you could say you copied my idea as a sincere form of flattery 
3. or you must show that you used the line before me - if so, I'll provide the doughnuts 

I think the first time I used the line on this forum was with the one about John McEnroe -
although I came up with it on my own years ago.

- Larry

[jeremy3220]

 
  And Jeremy, I had posted in the thread were you were talking about the black Buffalo horn nut, could you try a saddle first & let us know if the density of it makes a difference?

Sorry, I don't have the material for a saddle.

[flatlander]

Let me throw a couple observations and questions about them to you guys. First, I have a 000-60 like GA-ME. If you vocalize into the sound hole, like ooooooooooooooooo, an A note and G note
resonate. You can feel the whole guitar vibrate. The D is a little lively. The E note causes no such response. I took that to be the shape of the cavity. All sides of the guitar vibtate and come to life on A and G.
When playing the strings open, you can hear the loudness of A and D. But unlike GA-ME's, an A note, 6th string, 5th fret, is not what I would call dead. Now it's not as loud as 5th string open, but it's being fretted.
Same on 4th string. I just checked it out. 4th string 5th fret sounds better and more overtones that 4th string open.  So weather the sound source is my voice into the sound hole, or from vibtating string, guitar reacts in a similar way to certain frequencies, regardless of what string they are played on.  These resonent freqs are more noticable when using voice. Each of my 3 guitars
have differents resonating freqs. The L's G is most prominent and the Gallagher dread likes F#. So where does this play into adjusting braces?
Luckily my trebles are not weak. And my low E is not what I would call anemic but I can relate. Then what about other factors like the particular pieces of wood used, The neck (which doesn't seem to get much attention these days) Different types of bridges.  Anyway..............
  What guage strings do you use GA-ME. I assume you've tried different guages. Sometimes mixed guages can do the trick too. Actually I keep custom guages on all three of mine.
The L-10 and Gallagher I do like, 54-42-32-24-17-13  The 000-60  56-44-35-24-16-12.  The L-10 and G-50 pretty much beefed up the 1-2 strings for single string flatpicking breaks, and intonation on the B, sometime put 18 there. But with the 000-60 I just messed and messed and it seemed to jump up when I found the right mix. Mediums or light complete sets didn't do the same.
And it didn't seem to be a linear thing. Like put on a thicker treble and it gets louder. It seemed to be a certain combination that did best for the whole guitar. (slam me) 
Overall I believe all guitars are different and that all the parts of guitar contribute to sound. I know little about the particulars of bracing that effect certain strings or notes, But I have the feeling that to get best results you'd have to take a guitar on an individual basis and be good enough to know what that particular guitar needed to maximize bracing change enhancement.
Ok past time for me to back away from something I know little about!

[OdiePiker]

  OdiePiker, what gauge strings go you use on your SD-50? I have one, use mediums only (EJ-17's), and it is about the best dread I've ever played or heard. Needed no "tweaking" of the braces or anything. I'm assuming you're using mediums also. My SD has been compared to a much more expensive slope-shouldered Collings this guy has & after playing mine. I have a nice, balanced sound, nice treble when I play where I can accent them (closer to the bridge: still has nice highs), but not too much. Mine is an '05, not sure what yours is. Why all of the work on it unless it really needed it? I know you said it was cheap, so you'd play around with it, but unless something was wrong from the beginning, why do anything? Great sounding guitars from the start!

I use mediums as well.

I suspect there are differences guitar-to-guitar and ear-to-ear that leave some (myself included) dissatisfied with their axes.  As a matter of fact, I have an email exchange (from another board) going with another SD-50 owner who bought one after a very positive experience with the same model some time before.  He's just not as "wowed" with his current instrument as he was with the one he had originally played.

As I said in my original email, I loved the box when I first played it.  Even while I was dissatisfied with one aspect or another, it was (and remains) a joy at first strum.  I have, in my opinion, taken a great guitar and made it my great guitar.  My sound, my technique, my Larrivee.

[jeremy3220]

Let me throw a couple observations and questions about them to you guys. First, I have a 000-60 like GA-ME. If you vocalize into the sound hole, like ooooooooooooooooo, an A note and G note
resonate. You can feel the whole guitar vibrate. The D is a little lively. The E note causes no such response. I took that to be the shape of the cavity. All sides of the guitar vibtate and come to life on A and G.
When playing the strings open, you can hear the loudness of A and D. But unlike GA-ME's, an A note, 6th string, 5th fret, is not what I would call dead. Now it's not as loud as 5th string open, but it's being fretted.
Same on 4th string. I just checked it out. 4th string 5th fret sounds better and more overtones that 4th string open.  So weather the sound source is my voice into the sound hole, or from vibtating string, guitar reacts in a similar way to certain frequencies, regardless of what string they are played on.  These resonent freqs are more noticable when using voice. Each of my 3 guitars
have differents resonating freqs. The L's G is most prominent and the Gallagher dread likes F#. So where does this play into adjusting braces?

Which notes are you humming - open 5th string A or an octave above? If the guitar is responding at the low A then that's the lowest resonant frequency, however the resonant frequency of the top is usually about an octave above the lowest resonant frequency so it's quite possible both A's are louder. A is kind of high for a OM or 000 guitar to resonate at, I think my OM-03MT's lowest resonant frequency is at G# if I remember right and my OM/PW is at G.
Basically if you increase the mass, decrease the stiffness, and decrease the soundhole diameter the resonant frequency will drop and vice versa.

[flatlander]

Which notes are you humming - open 5th string A or an octave above? If the guitar is responding at the low A then that's the lowest resonant frequency, however the resonant frequency of the top is usually about an octave above the lowest resonant frequency so it's quite possible both A's are louder. A is kind of high for a OM or 000 guitar to resonate at, I think my OM-03MT's lowest resonant frequency is at G# if I remember right and my OM/PW is at G.
Basically if you increase the mass, decrease the stiffness, and decrease the soundhole diameter the resonant frequency will drop and vice versa.

Both A's louder/richer yes. But what about the air cavity?  Does it not have a resonant freq by it's size? Like when the wave length or fractions of it match up to cavity? Is it strictly the top or also air cavity size and shape? Or put another way, what effect does the size and shape of body have freq response? I just looked up the wavelength of 440hz. Said it was 30 inches. I'm not gonna look up lower bout sizes exactly in the middle of the night, but they hover around 15 to 16 inches.  Ok you know how we get. I did look it up. 000's lower bout is 15.375. The wavelength of A5
(880hz) is 15.3 inches. Of course 440 would match up nicely with half wavelength which would still resonate well.
The L is wider and resonates lower but the wavelengths don't match up as well. G would be closer to 17 inches. Then theres the question of all the different angles the wave is traveling and what points it would reflect off of and between to set up resonance where reflections of other waves were in phase and adding. Yes I agree, it's time to go back to bed!

[jeremy3220]

Sorry, yes the lowest resonant frequency I spoke of earlier is an air resonant frequency based on the size of the air cavity. However guitars are not simple Helmholtz resonators because the top and back are flexible and the more flexible they are the lower the resonant frequency will be.


btw, don't hum too close to the soundhole or your face being there will essentially have the same effect as making the soundhole smaller by blocking the air coming out of the guitar.

[jeremy3220]

Also, the low A on the guitar is 110Hz not 440Hz.

[BluesMan1]

   Just to answer Larry, I've used the King quote @ least twice before, being appropriate sometimes. Never used the J.M. one, since I think that one is more subjective. Since I used it on this thread first, though you were thinking of it, wouldn't that make me kinda psychic & therefore I deserve the doughnuts?   My special abilities need to be addressed in some way. When I'm completely bored, I'll search for my post(s) & direct you there, thus clearing all up.
   I'll still send you a few doughnuts (make believe they're filled with raspberries!), just to keep all cool!
   Now, back to this bracing discussion Like I said, good reading & makes one think about how subtleties done to your guitar can make such a difference?
   O.P., my SD-50, being almost 4 yrs. old now, has opened up into just one great guitar. Agree about the differences in individual guitars, as all would. Mine is a special one, esp. for me, & my decision to part with it is a financial one.
   Jeremy, I don't remember if I still have your email or if it's on your info, but I'm suddenly getting "blushing" of finger prints, which are appearing. Are under the finish, me thinking it was something I did & tried some Meg.'s #7 to take them out. Didn't work, sent picks to my luthier, he saying it looked like blushing, something on the neck prior to the original finish being applied & now showing up. If I have your email, I'll send all of the pics for your opinion. Rob, chime in if you have any clues. Thanks.
     Jeff   

[flatlander]

Also, the low A on the guitar is 110Hz not 440Hz.

right. I thinking (or not) 220 but at any rate the wave lengths of the A's match up pretty close in varying 90 degree increments to lower bout width of 000-60. Coincidence? The bottom line is, I'm wondering about the connection and relitivity to each other, of air resonance v top resonance and if air resonance would be taken into consideration for loudness of certain freqs along with top and brace shaving.

[lw216316]

wouldn't that make me kinda psychic & therefore I deserve the doughnuts?

I'm thinking more like......great minds think alike 
we would have to compare the post date of your ref vs the post date of my ref to 'great philosopher' to be exactly sure...

that might be too much work....
let's call it a draw ( I accept your word as a gentleman that you did not just try to avoid paying me royalities )

....here's plenty of doughtnuts for both of us...enjoy.... (dibs on the chocolate covered  )

- Larry

[attachment deleted by admin]

[BluesMan1]

   Done. And I forgot the doughnuts. Close your eyes & make believe!
     Jeff   

[OdiePiker]

I finally posted enough to be able to upload pictures.  Might as well cover all of my tweaks in one post.

Let's see if I can do this right.. First, the soundport.  Next the bracing (not a great picture, but you can see the altered contour.. and the sawdust).  Third are the Ivoroid Waverlies (I added Ivoroid bridge pins to match), and finally a pic of the whole box.





[attachment deleted by admin]

[Zohn]

I finally posted enough to be able to upload pictures.  Might as well cover all of my tweaks in one post.

Let's see if I can do this right.. First, the soundport.  Next the bracing (not a great picture, but you can see the altered contour.. and the sawdust).  Third are the Ivoroid Waverlies (I added Ivoroid bridge pins to match), and finally a pic of the whole box.

Wow - I love the look of those Waverlies!! Looks like a rather interesting SD-50.. The "Paw print" sound port is most intriguing - can you describe the difference in sound before and after?

[unclrob]

Jeff your luthier is right it could be a natural oil pocket thats just now working its way to the surface,or a moisture pocket that never fully dried in the aging process before cutting and building.The guy to ask is Jim at Trinity he got so much more wood knowledge then I ever will,that is without a vulcan mind meld of some sort.