Larrivee volume / shaving braces

[mrrinse]

Don't get me wrong, I love my Larrivee's (I have 4). They sound brilliant, feel comfortable and play great. But, compared to my other guitars (Taylor 510, McIlroy A25c, Lowden O10c, Lowden S7), they're very quiet and lack the same dynamic range. That's not a criticism (and it helps them to record brilliantly), but I was wondering if anyone else had found the same thing. For a moment, I was having crazy thoughts about getting braces shaved (dare I suggest that they might be a tad overbuilt?), but I was also concerned about destroying that balance and subtle tone that works so well for recording. Great live too, when plugged in, but oh so quiet... I wouldn't want to compete in a jam with any of my Larry's. Am I alone here? Should I do anything about it?

(To be fair, the action on all my guitars is low, I play DADGAD and lower tuning wise, have a delicate touch, play modern fingerstyle on Newtone 12-56 or 13-56... but the Larrivees are quieter than the similarly equipped and setup other guitars)

Cheers,

Dan

[Queequeg]

If you're plugged in what difference does it make?
And you're not competing for volume if you're competing at all.
There's no "do over" on shaving braces.
I wouldn't risk that with my guitars. I'd get another guitar. Find yourself a Martin M (Jumbo), a Masterbilt J or a Gibson J.

[mrrinse]

I'm only plugged in for gigs, but one a few occasions when playing to others unamplified, I have found my Larrivee's pretty quiet.  It's not actually a criticism, especially for my use of them, more just an observation. I doubt I'll go the shaving braces route, but was intrigued to see if anyone had and whether this makes a difference.

(Sorry - "compete" was a poor choice of word! a jam should never be a competition! I just meant that my Larry's would struggle if you needed to dig in or for single line work... or even just generally ... in terms of volume in a jam.... )

[hadden]

I'm surprised your Taylor is louder, even if it is a dread. I'm not surprised the others are. I don't find my LV03r a quiet guitar particularly. The humid weather here for the last two weeks hasn't helped it though  .

I wouldn't think a Larrivee is the guitar to get if you have a delicate playing style and use light strings. It'd be hard to get the Larry going if you've adjusted to the Mcilroy or the Lowdens, and then went to grab it.

[Queequeg]

uh huh, I "hear" ya, mrrinse. But I think that you will be heard in a group setting even if you aren't plugged in. And you are likely right that you may not have the loudest guitar in the group, but they'll hear you.
Remember that they are listening to you to a far greater degree than they are to your guitar.
Dynamic range is in the hands of the player as is tone, vibrato,finesse, everything.

[jeremy3220]

For a moment, I was having crazy thoughts about getting braces shaved (dare I suggest that they might be a tad overbuilt?), but I was also concerned about destroying that balance and subtle tone that works so well for recording.

They are overbuilt, that's why they weigh so much. But I wouldn't shave the braces if you like the tone. Most likely it will change the balance and voice rather than simply make it louder. You should at least except the possibility that you won't like the result.

[carruth]

Like you I am a soft player.I rarely play in a jam session because I am usually unable to even properly hear what I'm playing.The real problem is that many people play music in a group setting not properly listening to the other players.Why bother.Save your strings for something a little more satisfying. As regards shaving the insides of your guitars my advice is only by an experienced Luthier.If you mess up you only have some expensive kindling wood to get the fire going.

[leerichards]

Loud, loud. loud. It comes up so often. If you want LOUD go electric. Acoustic guitars are more about tonal subtlety, resonance, clarity etc. Larrivees have those qualities in truckloads as well as having perfectly adequate volume and bite. And then there's that alchemy to which Queequeg refers, between the hands and the instrument - that's where you achieve the sound that you want. Besides, your guitar is louder than you think. Play a note (or chord) then quickly lift your guitar and rotate it so that the soundboard is near your face. What you'll hear will amaze you.   

[flatlander]

If some of your other guitars are loud, whats wrong with just using one of them in setting where you need to be loud acoustically?
With 8 guitars I'd hope I'd have 1 for every need. My 2 Larrivees aren't that quiet and if I dig in, they respond, particularly the L-10. If I'm going to a jam where there's a bunch of instruments or people just don't know how to play well with others, I'll take my Gallagher which is really loud.

[tadol]

There were a couple posts awhile back from people who'd played with shaving braces, and they seemed pleased with the results.  I had thought it an interesting thing to try if I could find an inexpensive OM or L, but when I had the strings off of one of mine I tried to fit my hand into it and imagine the effort necessary to do the job. Realized that I don't small enough hands for it -

Its been reported that the SDs are cannons, as well as the Jumbos - have you ever tried one of those?

Tad

[magictwanger]

Hmm?Well I have two superb dreads.One a very likeable Larri D-O3R,and the other a fantastic Bourgeois DB Signature(alot more money ).

  Yes,the Bourgeois is louder,has  more sustain and chime,and can blow down a wall,but in all honesty I still just love the D-O3R.It's different,lower in dynamics,and that is just fine with me.I like for it's own vibe....

  No complaints whatsoever,and I am content to keep it just as it is.

[Zohn]

Every shaving removed from a guitar's bracing alters its characteristics and voice for ever, and can't be put back. By this I don't advocate or condemn re-voicing, but do find it a most fascinating topic though.
Th following quote is extracted from Scott Van Linge's web-site. His business is to re-voice guitars, and I think at least worth a look or a visit. He specifically mentions Larrivee as a good candidate for "brace works"

"The fee is now $1200, US, for parabolic re-voicing. The increase reflects what I have learned in just the last few years, and the amount of additional time I now spend on each instrument."
"It is a lot of money to spend, but there is no one else, anywhere, who can perform the miracles I do. If you want to start from scratch, my recommendation is to buy a Larrivee you like. They are good starting materials (as are most factory guitars) because they are well built and are not scalloped. Characteristically, the low E and D strings are louder than the rest on Larrivees, but I can balance that, as with balance differences on any guitar. Add my fee to the cost, and you will have an instrument unlikely to be touched by anything out there, no matter what the cost."
http://www.vanlingeguitars.com/parabolicbraceworks/index.html

[Parlor Picker]

We've already had a similar thread to this.  I always felt my Larrivée Parlor wasn't giving enough, so last year my luthier friend shaved the lower half of the X-bracing (not the half nearest the sound hole) and I think it improved things slightly. He made a special tool involving sandpaper, as he didn't want to use a blade in such a restricted space and risk cutting something he didn't want to.  The sandpaper arrangement offered more control.  However he did find it difficult getting his hand into the soundhole and doing the work.

As the Larris are sturdily built (and especially the Parlors), they take noticeably longer to play in/open up.

[Brodie001]

Do other people say they have trouble hearing you, or does the guitar just sound too quiet to you?  If it's just you, you may want to see if someone could install a soundport in one of your L's.  Of course you'd want a skilled luthier with experience to do it for you, just like you would for the brace shaving.  Don't know what the cost comparison would be.  It would not have a significant effect on the guitar voicing, though - you'd just be able to hear it better.

[L-fan]

mrrinse:

I say do some more research on it, and then if you're comfortable with the idea, go for it!  You could create a one-of-a-kind jewel that would be very special and personalized by you.  That would be great.  It's just a guitar for gosh sakes - of course you may not want to choose your favorite guitar for this the first time trying it, but I think it's fascinating and exciting what could be created.  Like has been mentioned, it has been done before with apparently very satisfactory results, so we know it can be done.  I'd love to hear how it turns out for you when/if you do it.

[jeremy3220]

The problem with doing it yourself is that most people have no idea what they are doing.

[SMixon]

I say do not shave!!!   But if you must please for the Love of the guitar have a Luthier do it.  That's not to say that you are not a capable individual as I'm sure you are, but at least if the Luthier messes it up you can blame him instead of your self and possibly work out a deal if they were to mess it up.  Just my .02

[jimmy buffett]

As someone who has shaved the braces on four Larrivees, I wanted to contribute to this thread, and I've been thinking about what I want to say.

You know, it wasn't all that long ago that you would have never seen a side sound port cut into a guitar.  People would have thought that you were some kind of experimental nut case.  Why mess with something that's worked for over 100 years.  Why -  even Mr. Larrivee doesn't do this to his guitars!  It would have been viewed as though you'd taken a belt sander to a Stradivarius (sorry, unclrob).  Now, all of the boutique builders are building this in almost as a standard feature.  My point is that it is not crazy to work toward improving what is generally seen as a good instrument.

A friend of mine has an Oscar Graff that has a stunning sound, but he really wanted a sound port (his buddy has a Laskin with a sound port and it was making him nuts).  He asked me to help him cut the sp into the upper bout on his Graff, and he still thanks me every time he sees me.  After 7 years of owning this guitar, he feels that this is the icing on the cake.

Another buddy has an SD 50 and a Larry parlor, and not only did he cut sound ports into these guitars, he shaved the braces as well.  These guitars sound great, and no one can tell you that he has done anything to harm the tone, volume, responsiveness, sustain, or whatever.  They just sound like great guitars.

As for my Larrivees, I took probably about 10% off the two braces that cross the lower bout.  When you think of the small profile on these braces, 10% is a very small amount and is not likely to destroy the integrity of the guitar.  And the bottom edge of the brace is still bound to the top with the same amount of surface to surface contact, and nothing has impacted on the glued surface.  You just take "a little off the top" with a very small plane (yep - it's hard to get your hand in there), and maybe taper that flat top ridge just a little.  It just allows the top to move a little more freely.

I guess that I'm lucky enough to have built my own custom guitar under the guidance of a luthier, and after having crafted my own braces and glued them to the back and sides, it's not such an exotic thing any more.  You get a certain level of comfort in working on all aspects of the instrument.  Here is a link to an earlier post with pictures of my custom project:

http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=22379.msg196497#msg196497

In my opinion, whatever tonal qualities the guitar has that appealed to the owner is enhanced as you play it in over the next couple of months.  Anyone who thinks that the sound has been irrevocably changed or that you may be destroying the integrity of the sound forever is over reaching here.  Let's break the paradigm, people.  Do not fear. The only thing to fear is fear itself.  

It's commonly expressed here that JCL, like most prominent luthiers, over builds his guitars just a touch, so that they can take some banging around without having 50% of them coming back for warranty repairs.  It's not a slight on the quality of the instrument, but it does leave some room for improvement, IMHO.

Like an earlier poster has said, "it's just a guitar for gosh sakes".  I agree that if you're interested in doing this, it's probably good to take it to a respected luthier as most players aren't going to be comfortable doing this, but if you're thinking about shaving a brace or two, then go ahead.  Your world will not be condemned by the Guitar Gods, and you'll still be enjoying that git 10 years from now. Probably more so...

Sorry to ramble on like this, so I'm outta' here!

jimmy

Disclaimer: I own 4 Larrivee guitars. I believe they are wonderful instruments.  I do not GAS for any other brand of guitar.  Thank you Jean, for the wonderful instruments, particularly my JCL 40th Anniversary Reissue, which has now been shaved and is thanking me for putting on a new set of Gotohs 21:1.  

[dermot]

I took this from Scott VanLinge's site, and cleaned it up a bit in P'shp.. it's his approach to re-voiceing Larrivee's... if/when Scott shows up here, i'm sure he will talk about his work far better than i ever could, but it would seem to go a fair bit beyond shaving the height of the X brace, and although i have talked to him a bit about this, i have not felt the desire to touch my OM19 ;-)



d.

[jeremy3220]

As for my Larrivees, I took probably about 10% off the two braces that cross the lower bout.  When you think of the small profile on these braces, 10% is a very small amount and is not likely to destroy the integrity of the guitar.  

Why did you remove material from there of all places? If you removed 10% of the brace height I think you lost about 20% of the stiffness of that brace. I don't know if those figures are exact but you definitely decreased the stiffness to weight ratio of the top. Those are the only two top braces with a somewhat triangular profile which provides the best stiffness to weight ratio. Have you experimented with with removing material from other braces?