Forum IV

[prof_stack]

What did you think of the Firefly.  I saw one at the Sta. Cruz shop.  It reminded me of a jumbo shape in a parlor size.  How would you compare it to a  Larrivee parlor?

The Firefly is an amazing short-scale tone monster.  Off the showroom wall it had a nicer tone than ANY Larrivee parlor I have played.  Deeper body contributes, I'm sure.  That and lighter bracing.  Very, very nice small guitar.

The sale price was just a little north of US 3k, more than most any of us would spend for a parlor guitar.  But in a perfect world ...

[ffinke]

Fred,

Walkerman is correct about the fragile nature of the cedar.  I love the sound of a cedar top on a small to mid sized guitar.  By no means is is inferior to other woods, but different in many ways.  It is much softer than the spruce woods.  If not properly humidified, it can crack much easier and it has a higher probability to ding the top due to its softness.  It doen't take any more himidification than any other wood, but you have to make sure it is humidified without missing a lick.  The sound is just a lucious, woody and warm sound when played with bare fingers or light picking.  A GREAT choice for finger style no doubt.  It is easily overdriven if flat picked with aggression.  It does not have the same volume headroom as any of the spruces, but maybe more than a mahogany or Koa top.  There again the stiffer tops are harder to move where as softer tops (such as cedar) move with less energy from the strings.  All is all if you want a great choice for a fingerstyle guitar or light picking and like a warm sound, I personally think cedar is a fine choice.  I don't know much, but I do as much homework before I buy.  I, Like may others on this forum have owned many guitars.  Enjoy the great hunt!
Rich

This is for Tuffy and Walkerman too.

I was just checking in to the Martin forum and happened to run across a discussion about tonewoods. Check out the red cedar top comments from this Rockbridge guitars: http://www.rockbridgeguitar.com/cedar.htm. You guys are probably right about the appropriateness for a ForumIV because of the variety of playing styles but for us fingerstylers it might be a real treat in a small bodied guitar.

Thanks for the many varied opinions.

fred

[Dotneck]

The problem is Larrivee won't use cedar any more....

[dermot]

I have a cedar guitar about the size of a LSV, and it's very diffrent from the spruce toped guitars... not better or worse, but i think one would want to play a cedar guitar before comitting to a custom with that top wood.

d.

[Walkerman]

Here is what James Goodall says about cedar.  You notice that he mentions fragility, with regards to scarring and shearing of braces.  He also says it is LESS sensitive to humidity changes, rather than more sensitive, as some have suggested.

"....Cedar
Slightly less strength than Engelmann. Color ranging from light cocoa brown to reddish brown to medium dark chocolate. Doesn't exhibit medullary silking. Scars fairly easily and braces can shear off if bumped. My personal opinion is it's better suited to classical building than steel string but our cedar/rosewood Grand Concerts and Standards sound quite impressive right from the start. Light gauge strings only. Powerful fingerstyle tone with lots of brilliance and sustain, exceptional clarity, and focused bass (with a dry, woody sound). Less sensitive to humidity variations, and dampens the string noise less than the spruces. Some small question about long term tone quality...."

[BluesMan1]

   Are some seriously considering cedar? Yes, less break-in period, initially warmer, but a softer top wood that requires being very carefull when touching your guitar. A nice spruce would be a better choice, IMO. As some said, maybe an Engleman. But the cost would go up with the quality of the top. Keep the cedar on the classicals, where it works best. A smaller body like this needs a brighter, snappier top on it. Cedar is used by alot of builders, but mainly on OM & OOO sized guitars, one that comes to mind , James Olson. Made a cedar topped RW body for James Taylor for years, but on a larger body than a OO. There's a method behind his madness! And a reason!
   Ben & Lynda, yes, the logo would be nice, but as Ben said, there are reasons it won't be used. Unless someone comes up with a new one that incorporates the "family"? Someone start designing & maybe it will be such a nice one that they might incorporate it into a guitar? A generic but sweet one that uses letters, maybe 4 instead of 3? There are some good graphics people here (Matt?), so someone might come up with a good one! Matt, I have faith in your work, seeing how that's what you do for a living.
   If the OO body is the one of choice, I'd like to see, as I said, an all HOG choice in the wood options. Think it would be a sweet blues guitar. That's what Martin made them for. If all comes to fruition, I hope that is possible!
     Jeff   
   I'm going to PM Matt & challenge him to come up with a new letter logo. See what he can do.

[ark]

Here is what James Goodall says about cedar.  You notice that he mentions fragility, with regards to scarring and shearing of braces.  He also says it is LESS sensitive to humidity changes, rather than more sensitive, as some have suggested.
to humidity variations, and dampens the string noise less than the spruces. Some small question about long term tone quality...."

The Rockbridge site mentioned in a post above also notes cedar is less susceptible to humidity issues - I never realized that:
"While spruce is the more traditional wood for steel string guitars, the use of cedar has been gaining acceptance in the last few decades and we love the sound it imparts. When properly braced, cedar soundboards provide a combination of CRISPNESS, VOLUME, DEPTH, and RESPONSIVENESS. That is a real eye-opener to the uninitiated. As an additional bonus, cedar tops reach their full tonal maturity or "get broken in" much faster than spruce. They're also less susceptible to variations in humidity than spruce. Cedar is often the choice wood for finger-style guitarists, and it is best used on small bodied instruments."
Al

[rpm60912]

The Rockbridge site mentioned in a post above also notes cedar is less susceptible to humidity issues - I never realized that:
"While spruce is the more traditional wood for steel string guitars, the use of cedar has been gaining acceptance in the last few decades and we love the sound it imparts. When properly braced, cedar soundboards provide a combination of CRISPNESS, VOLUME, DEPTH, and RESPONSIVENESS. That is a real eye-opener to the uninitiated. As an additional bonus, cedar tops reach their full tonal maturity or "get broken in" much faster than spruce. They're also less susceptible to variations in humidity than spruce. Cedar is often the choice wood for finger-style guitarists, and it is best used on small bodied instruments."
Al

That's why I'm keeping my cedar-top Ami with laminate cherry b&s. My cheapest git yet can ham it up with any of the big name baby or travel gits.

dermot's cedar/rosewood Webber steel string round body - is one of the most memorable guitars I've every played. I can't believe how warm it sounds.

ricky

[lw216316]

There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......

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[Walkerman]

There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......

I didn't know rabbits climbed trees

[Danny]

I didn't know rabbits climbed trees

The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.

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[BenF]

Danny, it is disturbing that you had that photo to hand.

[flatlander]

   The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.

Actually Hawks often give rabbits a free ride up a tree. It's the ride of thier life. 

[tuffythepug]

James Goodall and Rockbridge guitars do state that Cedar tops are less susceptible to humidity issues.   I won't refute their statements or the science behind them but I can only say that this runs contrary to personal experience.   I'm not the only one who has run into splitting and cracking of a cedar topped guitar:  there was a series of posts having to do with this issue about a year ago and there were many responses from folks who had cedar topped guitars that developed cracks and had never had the problem on other guitars.     One factor that could be at work here:   Ovation and ovation-type bowl backed guitars have used cedar tops quite a bit in the past.   Some people stated that they thought the splitting and cracking of the cedar could be due to the fact that the non-wood kevlar body of the guitar did not expand or contract with the top in fluctuating humidity condiditons;  this might have cause undue stress on the top as a result.   I'm not an expert so I will accept Goodall and Rockbridge statements to be factual.   There is no debate, however about the fact that it is an excellent tonewood for certain guitars.  Of course with any guitar, regardless of wood used, precautions should be taken to protect it from being banged up or dried out.   I would not be afraid to get another guitar with a cedar top if it sounded good;  I'd just be real careful with it.

[Walkerman]

   The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.

Danny...that brings back childhood memories of many family vacations.  Seems like every truckstop restaurant on Rt 66 had jackalope postcards.  Those certainly were simplier times.  And to my way of thinking, much better times to be a kid growing up in America.  But, that's another thread.

[fongie]

There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......

Is that a 'Wabbit' or a 'Wat'?
cheers
fongie

[BluesMan1]

   Lynn, what you say is true. A good builder can take virtually any wood & make it sound good. Cedar is a good tonewood, when used properly. Some builders swear by it. I have only played cedar topped guitar, having never owned one, so I can't comment on the long term durability of them. I do know they are warm, ding easily, but open up much quicker than Sitka. Still would rather have a spruce top, but the right person can make a sweet sounding cedar topped guitar. They are normally used on smaller sized bodies, but I think, contrary to what some have posted, that spruce would have a quicker, brighter response, due to the higher density of spruce. Warm sounding OO? Would want a little more zip to it, just my opinion. As I said before, J. Taylor played cedar topped Olsons for years, but they were OM sizes, I think. Possibly OOO's. Should someone start a thread on the tonal differences between cedar & spruce? Not me, but I'm sure there are those that would love to debate this!
     Jeff   

[magictwanger]

Hmm,"So" you want to "talk" Cedar. hey?...and on a OO forum thread,hey( I'm no longer holding my breath,yet who knows )

  Take a look over on the Guitar Adaptions site.....The Northwood QM-80!!!....YEEEEE-OWZA!!!!

                           

                                  NOW "THAT" IS A FORUM/CEDAR TOPPED BEAUTY  THAT WOULD GET ME GOING AGAIN!!

[BluesMan1]

   Call Dave & talk to him about it. He's a swell guy! And maybe buy it, to get it out of your system! Start the thread about cedar on a OO body or a F-IV & see how many chime in positively. I'm curious.
     Jeff   

[ffinke]

I was just looking at the AGF and look what I found: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155641

The tops don't dent if you take care of them.

Only and opinion but it's mine!

fred