Beyond the 03 Series

[jeremy3220]

   Jeremy, nice gits with some nice, wide grain. Did the wider grain effect the sound, in your opinion?
     Jeff   

The OM-28 I never owned but wide grain doesn't really effect the sound. When considering the subject one must ask how or why does the grain spacing effect the sound if it does indeed effect it. Check out this thread I posted before on the subject. http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=26198.msg237911#msg237911

Forgive the question, but ok, if the grain is really tight, there are no grain lines? I have a guitar that only has a few grain lines on both sides. Does that imply a variance in the wood?

They are actually annular rings and all spruce has them. Basically all the lines running from the neck to the tail are annular rings. The variance I was talking about earlier is when some of those lines are darker or wider than other lines on the tops or the top will have sections that are just lighter and darker.

[jeremy3220]

Jean himself swears by the wider grain now & personally seeks out wood with wider grain for tops. Jeremy?      

Maybe so but did he explain why those wider tops sound better? For me that sort of thing requires explanation.

    Jeremy will tell you the same thing, that the sound of the guitar can't be judged just by the grain lines of the top alone.

I don't think you can judge the sound by grain lines at all. That's my opinion based on what most builders say on the subject and personal experience handling wood.

[BluesMan1]

   Told you we had this discussion before. Also told you Jeremy would have some answers. Jeremy, I think in the AG mag, thats full of adds, with Larrivee on front, Jean discusses the reason why he looks for a spacing of 3mm(?) between lines. That # is off the top of my head, so it might be backwards because I had to look in the mirror to see it! We had this "discussion" before, & it went the same way. You said the same things about spacing of the lines. I agreed that it is not a determining factor to the final sound, we went back & forth, kinda like a dosey-doe, bottom line the same. I'll do just that, search for article about spacing, &, like I said, it doesn't always determine great sound. Isn't that like we kinda agree, for once?
     Jeff   

[flatlander]

Did Larrivee start out with the 03 series or was it more of a niche discovery? Did the higher end ones start the business? I mean, at that price it wipes out the competition and what a clever marketing tool.

I don't know enough about wood to do much but muck thread up, but I do know a little more about this than has already been said. Start with this Brochure from Randy's site. It's from 79'
http://randyrick.us/guitars/history/1979Brochure.htm
FYI if you'll notice "The Fret Shop" card on first page, thats actually where I got mine, Dothan Al store.
On the back page It had like 5 headstocks coming together and said "Larrivee, The Rolls Royce of guitars" Something like that.
I got mine the next year. Larrivee's were considered pretty high end.  They were more expensive than say a Martin D-28 or Good Gibson. (this was well before Gibsons went thru the roof) Part of that may have been the rareness in the states and the fact that at that time there was no American distributer. I think Duck or someone said they were cheaper in Canada. Notice they came with not bone, but Ivory Nut and saddle.
Around that time and though 80's they were praised by studio musicians and engineers for their balance. Engineers said they loved them cause there was little or no EQ needed.
In mid-late 80's, interviews and articles, probably in Fret's magazine, told of Jean's resistance to sales force wanting to make lower end
models to boost sales. He wanted only top quality instruments made and was concerned about larger production reducing quality.
That went on for a while. In late 80's, I believe, sales plummeted as acoustic music dropped out of favor. He made mostly electrics then. (that seemed so strange at the time) Then a couple years later acoustics were on the rise again. The years started really flying for me then but sometime later in the 90's sales force got their wish. I figured this out when a friend told me he got a Larrivee and only paid 500.00 bucks or something. Obviously these lower priced models were a huge boom for Larrivee, and the word started spreading.

[BluesMan1]

   As I had said in an earlier post, when I sat down with my luthier, who turned me onto Larrivees in '93, we took about 2-3 hrs. to decide what model & inlay options I would order. As I said also, the wood used for the L-10 series where only less than the Brazilian P-72 series. These were comparable to the Martin -45's series (the P-72's), but cheaper, but not by alot. My '93 L-10 Custom with Celtic fingerboard & bridge inlays, also with the female genie you see on my posts, was about $2300 w/o tax. It wasn't cheap, but w/o the inlays & upgraded wood (yes, they did use better wood back then in the higher series, to end an argument brewing), I could have gotten an L-09, which I did while the build was going. Also got an L-05 for the different wood selection for sound. Sold the L-09 when my Custom came in & boy, was it not only beautiful, but a great player also, only to get better with age. Santa Cruz was just coming into themselves then, as were Dana Bourgeois, Collings, Froggy Bottom, & some others. The Larrivees were considered high-end guitars, but JUST slightly cheaper than the others. Mine wasn't with the custom work done. For the same price I paid for the Larrivee, eventually I also got a Bourgeois OM also. Had come into a settlement, so had some extra $ to play with (no pun intended!)
   My L-10 has an ivory nut & saddle, as flatlander said. It's matured into one of the best sounding guitars I've ever heard. Have gotten many compliments not just on the looks, but mainly on the sound. Have been consistently told that it was "one of the top five guitars I've ever played" by quite a few people. They just had something special in them back then. Not saying they don't now, as I well know, but it was a special time of building & competition. And I had to custom order mine, even though my shop was an authorized dealer back then ('93) because of the options. Well worth the wait. He had a few -05 & -09 series to pick from, but not alot. This was in Guilford, CT, USA. I don't think the info on no authorized dealers in the US is correct. George Youngblood, the owner of the shop, had some sort of relationship with Jean Larrivee & also had connections in the final inspection area of Martin, to pick out "special" guitars to send him.
   The -03 series has done well for Larrivee, even though he apparently had reservations. It must have been in the late '90's that flatlander is referring to, as far as his friend buying one that cheap. Might have been a promo thing or something, but the price of the -03 series has only risen, as far as I can tell, based on inflation. I'll post 2 picks of my L-10, the first when it was a yr. old, the next about 15. Just so you can see how sweet the spruce has colored. Many stories to be told, but not enough room or time!
     Jeff   

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[BluesMan1]

   Oops, missed one. Sorry!
     Jeff   

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[flatlander]

On the no authorized dealers comment. To be clear, I was talking about 10+ years earlier and also I said distributers. I just remember reading that in 80's. They had what they called "distributors" in Europe. Hard time penatrating US market. I don't know if they have "distibuters" in US now or if they all just come straight from factory (it seems so) but the bottom line is that like 90% or more of sales were in Canada and Europe.
During the 1st half of 80's I only saw Larrivee's in the shop where I got mine and In Lexington Ky at Wilcutt's guitars.
Living in Atlanta from 84 to 90 there were none in shops. I saw 1 used one in a shop. One at a music festival.  I'm sure around the city and Conn. they were a little more available.
When I got mine, serial number 1614, I  remember figuring from the sales to US %'s, that there were maybe 200 in the states.
Even on here I've only seen a very few post pop up from US folks that had one in late 70's early 80's. Someone sold a 78 or 79
L-10 deluxe they got new on here last year or the year before.

[jeremy3220]

  Jeremy, I think in the AG mag, thats full of adds, with Larrivee on front, Jean discusses the reason why he looks for a spacing of 3mm(?) between lines.

I believe that's issue #184 and the exact quote is

He also wishes that players would develop a similar acceptance for wider grain in Sitka, similar to the way Adirondack is now viewed. "Three millimeters [between grain lines] makes by far the best guitar," he says. "Tight grain sounds terrible."

No explanation at all as to why "3mm makes by far the best guitar".

[ronmac]

Larrivee continues to make guitars using top wood with a wide variety of line widths. I can never quite figure out why Jean stated "wide grain" is best. Having such a large supply of wood at his disposal, he can use whatever he likes.

It is almost universally accepted by top luthiers that grain width is not the most important determining factor when selecting a top. Those same luthiers will tell you that stiffness, along and across the grain, and the tap tone determine how they will work the wood.

Many luthiers have tried to educate buyers to accept top wood that may not be creamy white and straight grained as equally suitable (given that it has good tap tone and the appropriate strength and stiffness) for fine instruments. As the "master grade" wood becomes harder to get, and more expensive, they see the need to use the less "pretty" wood.

Really great guitars come in all shapes and sizes (from a lot of different builders), use different species and grades of wood and often have features that many of us say couldn't possibly contribute to the greatness of the instrument.

[tadol]

I think part of this discussion leads into the "guitars as investments" thread - If everyone buying guitars were strictly evaluating them for sound, there would be far less concern about grain spacing and species selection. But ultimately, we tend to establish visual standards to determine worthiness in our culture, and judge ( and pay ) accordingly. There are always some who will have open minds - but the general market will have expectations that manufacturers will try to meet. Plus, we all equate rarity with value, and also like to decorate things we love - so there are alot of people who feel special decoration can add value to an instrument ( guilty as charged ).

I think what is unique about the -03 series is that Jean developed his building technique to a point that he could pretty easily build a good instrument, and set-up a factory based on those practices. His well refined techniques, combined with well-developed sources and choices for materials, and an unwillingness to lower his personal standards even for an entry-level instrument, is exactly why these models are great values.

That said - I do love me a little bling -

Tad

[ronmac]

Other than the bling thing (I am growing to prefer simple understated beauty) 

[Jagadis]

This whole discussion intrigues me.  I spend my guitar education time flipping back and forth between this forum and the AGF forum.  There seems to be a community of people on the AGF forum who believe that the only really fine (i.e. high end) guitars being made are coming from single man builders who "lovingly handcraft" their instruments one guitar at a time.  There is no question in my mind that these custom guitars are beautiful instruments and that each have their own combination of features, rare tone woods and unique sound quality.  At $5K or more, they are works of art. 

What i don't understand is why these guitars would be any better sounding than my D-03 or my new Forum III guitar.  The AGF forum people talk about Larrivee being good value for the money but not in the same league as a custom built guitar.  The usual examples given is that Larrivee is a high volume shop that mass produces products in a factory environment and that these types of manufacturing techniques can't replace individual hand craftsmanship. 

I've looked at many of the photos from the one man builders on AGF and compared their build process to the hundreds of photos that John Larrivee posted while the Forum III guitars were being made.  I must say, I didn't see too many differences between Larrivee's factory and the one man shops.  Despite Larrivee being a factory environment, from what i can see, their guitars are all pretty much made by hand.  A few power tools are used and different people are assigned to different tasks but for the most part, there is almost no automation (other than hand tools and power sanders).  The same types of molds are used, the same processes are used to steam and bend the wood, the same clamps are using to clamp and glue the guitars throughout the build process.  Whats even more interesting is that Jean Larrivee has spent decades experimenting with different guitar designs, bracing, different woods, lacquers, etc and has come up with his own magic formula for creating top quality guitars.  He even has become one of the foremost experts on tone woods and flies all over the world in search of special woods (the best example being the Italian Spruce used in the Forum III guitars). 

So back to the topic at hand.  Yes...the 03 series guitars are not fancy but decades of experimentation and craftsmanship has definitely gone into their build process.  The big question is...why are they any better or worse than a $5K+ guitar?  On the bling side, they definately don't compete with a custom guitar.  On the sound side...I'm not so sure.  Every guitar has its own sound and while you might not like the sound, there is no better or worse...just different.  From a uniqueness perspective...the 03s are definitely NOT unique as they are available in mass quantities.  There are no sound ports and double walls, rare woods and unique inlays or other such stuff.  They are just good playing guitars...which is what most people want to do...isn't it?

What am I missing here? 

Jordan.

[BluesMan1]

   flatlander, realized my mistake by a decade about an hour after I posted & was thinking about it. Sorry. And Jeremy, I don't know why either. Was just quoting what he said & what I've heard come out of Bob Taylor's mouth (on paper). My "93 L-10 isn't a tight grain, but I don't think that explains why it sounds so good. I think it's just something they are latching onto, for, in their mind, what they find to be a constant for tops. Who knows?
   And jagadis, you're not missing anything when commenting on the -03 series. Consistency in sound & playability is what that series is known for, & a damn good price for what you get. All of these variations in body woods in the -03's are making some pretty cool guitars available @ a good price. Martin & Taylor can't use the same woods & compete with Larrivee as far as price. My point about the quality of wood was that when they built 15-20 yrs. ago, the QUALITY of the wood seemed much better, not saying it's bad now. The series #'s back then did show an improvement in wood as the series went up. My '93 L-09 didn't sound as good as my "93 L-10. Not just my opinion, but all that A/B'd them. Which we did when my L-10 came in because we were all blown away by it. George, my luthier, still comments on not only how good it sounded when new, but also how it sounds now.
   Be it based only on looks & not on sound, the higher series do get better wood. I definitely noticed a difference between an '07 OM-03M that Sammies had & my '08 OM-05. One was satin, the -05 gloss. Did it make a difference? I don't think so. The wood in the -05 was just incredible, also having a tiger-striped neck, which was cool to look @. Didn't affect the sound probably.
   And Tad, I like a little bling also. When done right & on certain guitars. I don't like the abalone rosette on my '06 SD-50. Makes no sense with HB purfling. They went to all HB after '06, which was a good move. The one I got was used & as is & that's my only complaint about it. A small one compared to the sound. My L-10 was all my choices of inlays, which made it "my" guitar. Might be another one out there exactly like it in detail, but not another one out there exactly like it. I actually could have afforded the Presentation model (Brazilian with LOTS of bling), but after talking it over with my luthier, we both decided that for the $, I just couldn't beat the L-10 Custom! Can't afford the high-end guitars of today, but I don't need them when I can get Larrivees that are great guitars for much less.
     Jeff   

[Stephen Basil]

I remember Grit Laskin saying that he always feels a little wistful when he sees one of his guitars still in  immaculate condition many years after he had built it.  It gives the impression that the guitar had never been included in the life of the person it was built for. It was just a kind of temple object that remained in a playing studio.

It's often said that we are in a  Golden Age of guitar craftsmanship... there are amazing instruments being made by highly skilled craftspeople.  If I had the means and lifestyle that permitted me to acquire some of these masterpieces, I certainly would, and then I'd keep them in a studio for playing.  The thing with a guitar is that's really best if it shares your life with you and gets around (I don't know about getting passed around!!), gets dinged and suntanned and really gets played in so that it can ripen by sonic impact... by loving the guitar and just not fetishizing it makes it sound great.  Jim Holler always says to play the guitar a lot, and that's what gives it the angelic voice.

The 03 series are to me  perfect instruments in that they're unadorned but have beautifully eccentric tonewoods.  It's a guitar for taking around and using: the guitar you go for comfort after life kicks your -CENSORED- or to celebrate your accomplishments... Communicating with the Muse is what makes the guitar into a crystal voiced oracle!

[BenF]

Jordan, I agree with some of what you say.  I figured from the forum build pictures that much of the machinery makes the build process faster, but not necessarily less hand made.  There seems to be a great deal of skill involved in designing, making and using some of the machines, and I understand from what I have read that other builders have taken the lead from JCL in terms of a number of machines they use.

However, I think Jeremy will concur with this, JCL buys wood in bulk, and they do build guitars to a known recipe.  The one off builders will voice each top seperately, which is time consuming, complicated, skillful and should make the guitar sound better when finished.  I am sure voicing tops isn't the only step that is more detailed in a custom build than from the Larrivee or Martin methods.  Also, you may find that custom builds often employ the latest techniques and cutting edge technology.  In addition, the custom build will probably be a lighter build, because the lifetime warranty issue doesn't become such a problem, because the builder knows who is building for.  I reckon a pretty large percentage of Larrivee or Martin guitars get a life and a level of care that would make most of the members on here shudder.  How many cracked and sunken top guitars come up for sale.  How many Ryans or Gallaghers do you see treated like that??

To my ear, I bet I couldn't make out $4 or $5k worth of difference between an L-03 and a great custom guitar, but I acknowledge that there are many many people who can.  One day I hope to be that good a player.  At present, I appreciate the level of craftsmanship that goes into a Larrivee.

[jeremy3220]

What i don't understand is why these guitars would be any better sounding than my D-03 or my new Forum III guitar. 

Large factories build their guitars to specs, all the tops get sanded to the same thickness(for a given model at least), all the bracing is premade(CNC I believe) to certain specs,etc. Wood varies a lot in strength and stiffness so they have to make the specs of those tops and bracing as if the weakest top will get matched with the weakest bracing, otherwise you'll have a lot of guitars coming back with deformed tops. The reason this matters is because the guitar acts mainly as an air pump; and to really simplify things, the more wood there is the more energy is required to move it. So for optimum sound we want a guitar top and bracing that is as light as possible while still being able to maintain stuctural integrity, again this is a generalization. We also want to maintain a certain stiffness to the top so the guitar doesn't sound muddy and dull. This is why the stiffness to weight ratio of the braced up top is important. This is where the individual builders and smaller factories come in. They can spend the extra time to make sure each top and bracing is light as possible without being too light, while the large factories have to build on the safe side. There are a lot of ways to accomplish these goals, a few of them are...

Thickness the top to the stiffness you want. We can take a specific top and thin down to where it has the amount of flex we are looking for. If the top is really stiff we can make it thinner, if it is really soft we can leave it thicker. The large factories thickness their tops to a certain spec and they have to leave them thick to account for the softer tops that will be used.

You can apply the same thing to bracing. Based on how stiff the top and bracing wood is you can adjust the looseness of the bracing by removing material till you get the amount of flex or tone you want. Again large factories build the bracing to specs, they have to account for the softer wood that will end up getting used on some guitars, so the bracing is designed to be strong enough to maintain structural integrity assuming that some guitars will end up with wood that is weaker than the others.

So basically large factories have to build the guitars extra sturdy/heavy to account for all the variations in the wood, where smaller shops and individual luthiers can take the time to shape and select each piece of wood based on the sound they want. That's the really simple version because there are all kind of things luthiers can do on an individual basis to optimize the sound of a particular guitar.

Here's a good article. http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

[Jagadis]

Here's a good article. http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

Jeremy,

Thanks for your note.  That was a very informative article.  It makes a bunch of interesting points:

1)  A luthier reserves the option to make lots of very small changes/tweaks with a custom guitar to tune/optimize a particular guitar's performance.  This compares to a factory guitar where they build quality intruments to a tight specificiation. This makes complete sense.

2)  High end factory guitars with lots of bling are geared towards the collector market vs. professional musicians who desire an expensive guitar to achieve a certain sound/performance.  Very interesting point.

3)  Factories are all about producing volumes of products to a price point in the most efficient and cost effective manner.  A customer builder is about producing the best sounding/performing instrument. 

Lots of other interesting points that I didn't mention.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  Very good reading.

Jordan.

[strawintogold]

If  I may, I think a lot of this back and forth (not here, just in general) happens because it seems as if it's either factory built or individually built. From what I've seen Larrivee seems to be a happy medium.

For example, there are guitars I consider factory built, like Yamaha, etc. But from what I have seen in pictures I'm pretty sure the Yamaha factory et al isn't anything like the Larrivee factory and I don't think it could be, given the volume it produces.

I'd use the show Semi Homemade as a reference but I think that would be lost as a reference point here,lol. Forgive me if this was already pointed out, it was just kind of an 'aha' moment for me up there in the kitchen.

holly

[Yoyodyne]

Here's a tour (oldish) of the Yamaha facility that produces the L series guitars, hosted by Squeeze's Glenn Tilbrook:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP0d18tFjSY

[jeremy3220]

Factory made, hand made, robot made, spontaneous generation, whatever - Handmade only matters if they are handmade where it counts. I like what Bob Taylor says in the first few lines of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=585pi6eE5A0

You have to realize handmade is just a label that has a great deal of varience in the way it's used. If you read the article I linked Somogyi explains what he means by handmade. My last response was about achieving a different end result, it doesn't matter if the process is 'handmade'.