Tuner Give-A-Way & Inspection Period Question - And the Winner is......

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Hey folks,

As some of you know I've been in the guitar business since 2002, but this will be my first full year selling new guitars, so I thought I would solicit some opinions from you.

I think we all agree that it's a must to have an inspection period on a used guitar you bought online, in fact I've always offered a three day inspection period on our used guitars, but what about when buying a new guitar?

Many shops offer an approval period on new guitars with various re-stocking fees and restrictions, and of course they all make you pay for shipping both ways, so I'm wondering just how you folks feel about getting one that has been through one or more trial periods already, and just what handling marks, and/or smells would be acceptable to you. How about a re-stocking fee?

Or, would you rather get a guarantee that you will be the first to play your new guitar, in lieu of a trail period?

As a show of appreciation, I would like to give one of you a brand new Pitch Pocket guitar tuner for participating in this discussion. I will draw a name next Wednesday and let you know who the winner is.

Thank you,

Ted

[dazdarren]

I like the idea of being the first one to play a new guitar and would be willing to waive the trial period.  I presume you would do a visual inspection of the guitar before shipping it to make sure that it arrived from the factory with no obvious issues.  The idea of being the first one to play a new guitar has some appeal to me.

[dragon1952]

Yeah, but if they took it out just to visually inspect it, how would you know the entire shop didn't sneak a play in 

[jimmyp]

10 day inspection period, buyer pays shipping both ways. I don't think I've ever bought a guitar that was absolutely never  played. JP

[Mr_LV19E]

I think 3 days once it is at your door and if you want to send it back for some reason, you (as in the buyer) pay for all the shipping.  Of course this assumes the guitar arrived as stated.  If it does not look like the description given to you, then the seller should cover the shipping.  Now if your the dealer and you knowingly send out something that is not as described, you should have to pay costs.  If you want to sell on the internet you have to be honest, so the second option is not going to happen.

Now if someone sends a guitar back that they didn't like, and they are interested in trying something different, well maybe the seller should help out with shipping costs.  After all they still have a potential sale.

If a buyer is shopping on the internet they are looking for a deal and probably for something that is not carried in any local store.  They should be prepared to lose a little money for the convenience factor. 

As far as buying a guitar that has never been played.   How many guitars on the wall of the local guitar shop do you think have never been played?  Short of ordering a guitar to be built for you, the only other way you are likely to get something untouched is buying via internet.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
You asked for opinions. 

[ark]

I would not buy a guitar "sight unseen and untried" without a trial period -- 3 or 4 days after receipt of the guitar seems reasonable ( one day may be lost  letting the guitar warm up in the case). Even if you decided to offer free shipping to the buyer as in incentive, the buyer would have to pay for any return shipping unless the guitar arrived damaged or was not as advertised in some way. Seems to me at least a return shipping charge is required to insure the buyer is "serious" about the purchase. There are some outlets that offer free shipping, but if the guitar is returned, the buyer becomes responsible for all the shipping ( again, this is assuming there is no damage or misrepresentation).
And of course, a helpful, patient, knowledgable, upfront and friendly sales person on the other end of the phone is key.

Good luck,
Al

[Johnny M]

I seem to buy most of my guitars used ~ better value as your money goes further, so I don't really care if someone plays the guitar before me or not.  I would want the inspection period as I honestly don't know what I'm getting until the guitar is in my hands.  I may have preconceived ideas of what the guitar will sound and feel like, but I honestly won't know until I play that specific guitar.  Ads may also be somewhat deceiving (intentional or not), so if I'm buying a used guitar, it isn't until I get the guitar into my hands that I can tell if it was fairly represented in the ad.  So, I don't care if it's been played or not, but please give me the inspection period.  3 days would be fine with me unless an issue came up and we decided to see if we could work it out and it took a little longer than 3 days.  If the guitar was misrepresented, then I think the seller should pay for the return shipping and restocking fee.  If for some reason I didn't like the guitar (tone, playability, etc.), then I should have to pay the shipping and agreed upon before hand restocking fee if the guitar was well represented.  I also think that is important for a seller (especially if the guitar is new and from a company/store) that the buyer is made aware of all fees that might apply if he/she decides to return the guitar before the sale transaction is completed (example; restocking fees, shipping costs, taxes, etc).

I hope this helps and don't hesitate to ask any further questions.

John

John

[Queequeg]

If you're taking on a new line or an exciting new product, you can put it on the road, where you ship it to someone to check it out for a few days and then he/she ships it on to the next person in line, and so on. This way you get several appraisals or reviews and each party only pays freight one way. Maybe it passes through 6 hands along the way, arriving back home to you again. Of course it helps if you know something about the people on the list and you have to set some parameters on time and shipping and deadlines.
I know a luthier who does thins.

[BenF]

I potentially disagree with some of the comments above.  I have bought both my good guitars online, and I made sure I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting before I paid.  The first one was brand new, with a general set up and check over by the shop who sold it.  The second was an ebay buy, and I appreciated that I took a risk.  I saved money by taking that risk.

If you want 100% peace of mind, the only way is to go to a store and buy the guitar.  I have only sold one guitar, and made it clear that a return was only accepted if we could agree that the item differed from what the description stated.  It may be OK for large stores to operate a mail order try before you buy system, but it is a killer for private sellers and small retailers.  This is especially true when the guitar is new.  There was a debate in the for sale section about a guitar bought new, never played (i.e. bought as an investment I assume) and being sold.  The mods here stated that it wasn't new any more, and couldn't be described as such. 

If I bought a new guitar on line, and later discovered it had been shipped to half a dozen people and returned for whatever reason, I would be pretty annoyed at it being decribed as new if that decision is to be accepted.  I could be buying a new guitar that had considerably more wear and tear than the guitar mentioned above, and had spent some considerable time in the hands of delivery companies, which scares me even more. (considering half of that time the guitars would be packaged by normal people, not experienced shop owners)

To me the buyer should be aware that buying online is their own risk, and returns should only be where there is a discrepency between the guitar and the description, or damage has occurred in shipping.

If you buy a packet of biscuits, and they are moldy, you take them back.  If you buy a packet of biscuits and decide you don't like them three days later, tough.  Simple simile I know, but that is my tuppence worth.

[ncognito]

If you're taking on a new line or an exciting new product, you can put it on the road, where you ship it to someone to check it out for a few days and then he/she ships it on to the next person in line, and so on. This way you get several appraisals or reviews and each party only pays freight one way. Maybe it passes through 6 hands along the way, arriving back home to you again. Of course it helps if you know something about the people on the list and you have to set some parameters on time and shipping and deadlines.
I know a luthier who does thins.

Queequeg--

Anyway you could convince this luthier to comment directly to this thread?  It would be interesting to hear how he felt about the unusual method after having done it for a while and what feedback he received from those who got to try his guitar.

            DAVE

[Queequeg]

Queequeg--

Anyway you could convince this luthier to comment directly to this thread?  It would be interesting to hear how he felt about the unusual method after having done it for a while and what feedback he received from those who got to try his guitar.

            DAVE

the luthier was/is Tim McKnight. Each stop along the way was carefully planned and each player only had it for a few days before it moved on to another stop.
Not really much different than players in a store pulling a guitar off the wall and test-driving it (IMHO) but of course the end buyer should or would probably want to know the history and about the road trip the guitar took. There is a thread over at the AGF, I believe. If i can find it I will link it here. Tim doesn't get online much. His wife Mary does most of the communication. I think that there might be a Michigan member of this forum who was among those to receive the guitar along the way. (fitness1 ?)
Per BenF's comments:
We all feel differently about our guitars, new and/or used. I actually often prefer to get a used guitar. A road trip such as I described above obviously wouldn't be a suitable history for a buyer like BenF. I personally wouldn't have any problem buying such a guitar, knowing that it had ended it's journey back in the hands of the builder who could check it out, and set it up for me and wiping it down, removing any fingerprints or scratches on it prior to me getting it. And I never worry about the shipping. We pack them properly and hand them over to UPS or other carrier. I have shipped and received a couple dozen guitars over the years. Never had a single problem. They are insured, so why worry?
As to "the debate" BenF refers to, new guitars carry a warranty. Used guitars typically do not. The reason the mods took issue with an adv in the For Sale section was because the seller said the guitar was new. It was not. the warranty no longer existed. Further, the seller was recommending that the potential buyer should lie about this, and say that he/she received this as a gift. The mods will take issue with these kinds of recommendations on this forum.

[ncognito]

Queegueq--

I seem to remember BlueinVT posting something about an experience he had recently that might be relavant ( I could not find the post, so it's possible that it was someone else ).  He received a guitar that gets passed along from one person to the next, but when he opened the packing box he discovered some damage.  I hope you or someone else can clarify this.  It'd be nice to know the outcome of that story.

        DAVE

[striper]

I guess for me its all about trust. As You build a customer base and establish a reputation it wont be a question of "Is it unplayed by anyone but me" but, Do I trust this dealer to send me something sight unseen that Im sure will be as advertised and in the condition I am expecting so that sending it back isnt an expected issue....Good luck in Your business venture, a good and trusted Guitar dealer is always welcome...

[BenF]

Per BenF's comments:
We all feel differently about our guitars, new and/or used. I actually often prefer to get a used guitar. A road trip such as I described above obviously wouldn't be a suitable history for a buyer like BenF. I personally wouldn't have any problem buying such a guitar, knowing that it had ended it's journey back in the hands of the builder who could check it out, and set it up for me and wiping it down, removing any fingerprints or scratches on it prior to me getting it. And I never worry about the shipping. We pack them properly and hand them over to UPS or other carrier. I have shipped and received a couple dozen guitars over the years. Never had a single problem. They are insured, so why worry?
As to "the debate" BenF refers to, new guitars carry a warranty. Used guitars typically do not. The reason the mods took issue with an adv in the For Sale section was because the seller said the guitar was new. It was not. the warranty no longer existed. Further, the seller was recommending that the potential buyer should lie about this, and say that he/she received this as a gift. The mods will take issue with these kinds of recommendations on this forum.

Queequeg

I have no real issue with buying a used guitar.  What I don't understand is how a guitar can be sold and returned, perhaps numerous times and be considered new, whereas a guitar can be sold once, never played and considered used.  Surely they are both used, or at least pre-owned.  If the seller we referred to earlier took his guitar, with the uncompleted warranty booklet, back to the original dealer and paid a restocking fee, you are suggesting the dealer could sell it as new again. (assuming there is no time limit on the return policy - a lot more play wear could be inflicted in 3 days that is on that particular instrument)

Whilst I appreciate that you probably do package guitars excelently, as most responsible people do (and indeed I am sure everyone in the 'road trip' suggestion would), how can you be so sure if it is an anonymous internet purchaser who decides he/she doesn't like it.  The used OM-03 I purchased was terribly packed, but I was lucky no damage was done, and that was from a music store.

I am not criticising what anybody does here, I just think that the try before you buy thing shouldn't happen.  Buyers should accept they take a risk buying online that what they order might not meet their aspirations.  IMHO returns policies should protect against mis-advertising and damage.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, just offering a different perspective.

[PastorChuck]

I would require a deposit (of some amount) that would be refunded if the guitar came back in the same condition- non-refunded it if did not.

As a dealer, I would take extensive pictures of all instruments/case (date stamped) before shipping.

I would give a 48 hour approval period (after the guitar has been delivered)

I would insist on the prospective buyer agreeing to certain packing specifications if returned.

[edgeguy]

I feel that honesty is the best policy.  If the new guitar has been shipped and returned to you because the original buyer's did not want it you should state this to the person who is buying it now.  You probably would then want a written policy stating acceptable conditions on a new guitar returned.  If they return the guitar shipping should be on them (both ways, even if you offer free shipping to them).  This would remove the person who is just trying out different guitars without being seriously interested in the guitar.  I would finally give the buyer a 3 day trial period.

[Queequeg]

Queequeg

I have no real issue with buying a used guitar.  What I don't understand is how a guitar can be sold and returned, perhaps numerous times and be considered new, whereas a guitar can be sold once, never played and considered used.  Surely they are both used, or at least pre-owned.  If the seller we referred to earlier took his guitar, with the uncompleted warranty booklet, back to the original dealer and paid a restocking fee, you are suggesting the dealer could sell it as new again. (assuming there is no time limit on the return policy - a lot more play wear could be inflicted in 3 days that is on that particular instrument)

Whilst I appreciate that you probably do package guitars excelently, as most responsible people do (and indeed I am sure everyone in the 'road trip' suggestion would), how can you be so sure if it is an anonymous internet purchaser who decides he/she doesn't like it.  The used OM-03 I purchased was terribly packed, but I was lucky no damage was done, and that was from a music store.

I am not criticising what anybody does here, I just think that the try before you buy thing shouldn't happen.  Buyers should accept they take a risk buying online that what they order might not meet their aspirations.  IMHO returns policies should protect against mis-advertising and damage.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, just offering a different perspective.

Good question, BenF.
If you buy a guitar from the reseller (dealer), the reseller (who has a business relationship with the maker, builder, manufacturer) will register that sale and becomes a proof source for warranty purposes. If the reseller's records indicate they sold it to you for example and then I come into it with a a warranty claim, the maker will take issue with this with me claiming to be the original owner. This vertical marketing exists so that the maker doesn't have to have a staff of 100s to deal directly with the public (their customers).
It is perhaps worth noting that Elderly for example will on occasion have an instrument marked down as "shop-worn". It is new, but it has been in the store for a while and has received some nicks and/or scratches, but they sell it as "new" only disocunted.
And I agree with you that there is an element of risk in internet purchasing and shipping.
But... such is life; no?
ce la vie

[ffinke]

I recently purchased a Collings OM on the internet with the no return clause. In retrospect I should have been in a dead panic. Luckily the instrument was as described and the transaction was smooth. The buyer (me) and the seller (the other guy) were both honest and reasonable. Bernie Madofff should be so lucky.

A guitar shop can control potential damage when the guitar is in the store but shipping it around the country scares me. If the person buying the instrument has every intention of keeping it and only if there is a major flaw should he be allowed to return it then these transactions boost the commerce of guitar sales and no one should think themselves so privileged to be the FIRST to play it.

Cream with your coffee?

[Mr_LV19E]

 What I don't understand is how a guitar can be sold and returned, perhaps numerous times and be considered new, whereas a guitar can be sold once, never played and considered used.  Surely they are both used, or at least pre-owned.  If the seller we referred to earlier took his guitar, with the uncompleted warranty booklet, back to the original dealer and paid a restocking fee, you are suggesting the dealer could sell it as new again. (assuming there is no time limit on the return policy - a lot more play wear could be inflicted in 3 days that is on that particular instrument)

First, I don't think any guitar is going to be sent out numerous times. People don't buy on line and pay shipping charges to play a guitar for 3 days and send it back.  The amount of returns would be small and I doubt any guitar would be returned more than once.

As far as the warranty issue,  I'm sure the authorized dealer has a contract with the manufacturer and when they make a sale they have records of who bought the guitar.  This way when the manufacturer receives the warranty card they have the option of contacting the dealer to check for validation of sale.  As far as the dealer selling it as new again, I don't think so.  The dealers records show he sold it already and when.  Obviously somewhere in their contract it states how long of a trial period they can offer.

Besides, it all boils down to honesty.  The manufacturer warranty's the guitar for life to the original purchaser, when purchased from an authorized dealer.
Any one claiming the warranty is good to the second owner is not being truthful.  I see this in ad's all the time and for the most part I think the sellers are just not aware because they don't read the warranty. They think because they were lazy and didn't send in the card that somehow they should get more for the guitar.  Who knows, but it is just wrong. Plain and simple.

I value the warranty at about $200.  If I'm going to sell a guitar I bought new that still looks new, I find the lowest selling price for a new one and subtract $200 or $300. That would be my listing price and it would depend on how badly I needed to sell as to how low I might go.

                         

[tadol]

I think a careful inspection report should be sent to the buyer before any guitar goes out, new or used. If they choose to buy the guitar with that full knowledge of any potential condition issues ( including any minor rubs or pick scratches that might be on a "brand-new" guitar ) then everyone knows what is being sold. If the decision is made to return it for anything less than undisclosed damage or similar, then a minimum restocking charge, plus a new inspection to confirm the instrument is being returned "exactly" as shipped, is very reasonable.  Any additional damage of any type would create an additonal charge to be made against any amount to be refunded.

You are still going to have people who suffer from buyers remorse, or just recovery from severe GAS as soon as they actually handle their latest acquisition, plus the potential for shipping/packing issues. You just have to have clear rules, and cover yourself as best you can.  Of course, this is all based on higher value guitars, and can be adjusted accordingly for the laminate imports -

Tad