Heavy gauge for 12 string

[JohnTully]

I like to play open and alt. tunings on my 6 string and currently made the change from D'addario EJ17's to DR rare bluegrass size(12-56).
I like the heavier strings because I use open tunings but drop down 1/2 note and sometimes whole note (DADGAD=CGCFGC  etc...etc.)
Now I know there are warnings to not go too heavy with the strings on a 12....but I just picked up some John Pearse heavy gauge (C#) and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts....
My new 12'er (L-03-12RE) is on it's way...

[Michael T]

12er's are braced like a tank for all the tension, if you like the heavier gage, use 'em but check your set up frequently for a while whilst she settles in. "Round Cores" are a great choice for the heavier gages too (less tension), but you may have to make up your own sets. Thomastik-Infeld has a good 12er line, and Newtone M/C has them too (their classifications are diff though .52's are mediums). The DR line has the Sunbeams which are round core but you'll need to call to have them mix you up a set, They will return your call fast.

I may suggest looking about a bit for a compensated bone saddle too, (I don't know if Mr. Colosi does them but he would be my first call), when you go to the heavier gages the octaves are offset even more. My Taylor has a saddle that looks like a saw blade but is level across the top of the strings and very close action with no intonation probs.



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[teh]

I use light gauge D'Addario strings on my LV-03MT 12 and tune down a step to D not because I have to but because I want to. From everything I have read, Leo Kottke tunes down 1 & 1/2 steps and attached is a short version of the question of string gauges that Leo uses on his 12 string signature model Taylor that appeared in a past edition of Wood and Steel (Taylor's magazine.

"...Leo Kottke has used a number of different gauges and tunings (he now down-tunes his E to C#).  To find out what Kottke's using these days, we sat down with him last October after his show at the Humphrey's venue in San Diego.  At that time, his 12-string pairings, as jotted down in his own handwriting, were as follows:"

     e/e .013 .013
     b/b .017 .017
     g/G .014 .026
     d/D .014 .036
     a/A .018 (w) .046
     e/E .030 (w) .056

Remember, if Leo pulls the top off his signature model, they probably just send him a new one or repair it free of charge. This the same guy who once shaved the braces of his new 12 string using a pen knife in the store right after he bought it.

[Trinity Guitars]

I customized a D03 12 for heavy strings. Required a new nut, or at least cutting the slots on the existing one, to fit the strings. This one got a vintage bone nut and saddle and heave strings. It was tuned down to C. Was an awesome sound. I did run this past Larrivee and got there OK as long as it was not tuned above C
Jim Holler

[JohnTully]

OK then!!
Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.
A new saddle and nut may be in order, but I suppose I could have my existing ones modified by a professional, right? Although, I don't think I'm a fan of Tusq. I do appreciate bone saddles and nuts, though. I had it done to my "mule" ( Hohner cheapo but not so cheapo) and an old, warped beyond return Yamaha that was slated to become firewood.
Obviously they both had plastic before that and ridiculously high actions. I knew the Hohner had potential to play and sound great. After a setup, ebony bridge pins and bone nut and saddle, it did just that. It was a completely different guitar after that. The bone pieces and a "good as it gets" setup even saved the Yamaha from damnation.
The JohnPearse strings are very similar in size to the Kottke ones (13-56 essentially). I'll give them a shot and if I don't like them, for whatever reason, I think I'll try the Newtones or something similar in size.
By the way...do capo's and 12 strings play nice? I use a capo on the 6 when I need to. Considering the difference the close proximity of the different gage strings on a 12'er , I'm guessing this may take some tweaking.
Thanks again,



P.S. teh.... everytime I see that "LV-03-MT12" I go NUTS!!! I've had the pleasure of hearing some Larri hog tops and I am in love!!! A 12 string hog top must be something else!!!!

[Randy_R]

The warranty on your new Larrivee 12 string will be voided if you use anything heavier than light gauge strings, per Larrivee. This opens a LARGE can of worms and endless discussion and debate. This was done a few years ago because of some problems players had who were using heavy gauge strings.


From the FAQ section under Larrivee Customer Service:

All Larrivee Guitars, with the exception of 12 strings, will handle medium gauge strings.

[JohnTully]

Ain't that a kick in the beans!!!!
Lites and extra lites are too thin of a gauge to tune down a whole step...heck, going down 1/2 step, depending on the tuning, makes them feel like noodles.
I'm going to give them a try anyways. I believe the Pearse strings are designed to be tuned to C# If I'm not mistaken...that's 1 1/2 steps down...???
Anybody care to chime in with the Total tension lbs. that these strings can put on a guitar...c'mon I know someone here knows this stuff!!!

[NotRevGDavis]

I use Dean Markley Vintage Bronze mediums (12/12-54/30) on my Taylor 355 with no problems I tune to standard in D.
I have owned 2 Larrivee 12's (L05, OM03R) and they both were weak in the volume department probably partially due to the light string gauge. I didn't want to take a chance ruining them by using mediums because they were still nice guitars.

[Michael T]

I customized a D03 12 for heavy strings. Required a new nut, or at least cutting the slots on the existing one, to fit the strings. This one got a vintage bone nut and saddle and heave strings. It was tuned down to C. Was an awesome sound. I did run this past Larrivee and got there OK as long as it was not tuned above C
Jim Holler

You may want to follow Jim's lead here and call Larrivee, or shoot them an e-mail to keep a record of the authorization.

[Queequeg]

You could easily be well over 300 lbs on your 12 string guitar.
I recommend downloading and installing the (free) U.S.T.C. (Universal String Tension Calculator). You can dial in your string gauges, scale length and tunings and see how much tension you are putting on your guitar.
Here's a bit more on the subject for anyone just looking for a quick cheatsheet on string tension...
The following, courtesy of UMGF member brrobert, is a string tension chart, based on standard tuning and D'Addario published string tension figures.


STRING TENSION CHART BY BERT SHARP

STANDARD TUNING E A D G B E TOTAL
LIGHT 26.0 29.9 30.5 30.2 23.3 23.3 163.2
MEDIUM 29.0 34.0 36.8 35.3 26.3 27.4 188.8
HEAVY 31.9 38.8 44.7 38.0 29.3 31.5 214.2

TUNED DOWN 1/2 STEP D# G# C# F# A# D#
LIGHT 23.2 26.6 27.2 26.9 20.8 20.8 145.5
MEDIUM 25.8 30.3 32.8 31.5 23.4 24.4 168.2
HEAVY 28.4 34.6 39.8 33.9 26.1 28.1 190.9

TUNED DOWN FULL STEP D G C F A D
LIGHT 20.6 23.7 24.2 24.0 18.5 18.5 129.5
MEDIUM 23.0 27.0 29.2 28.0 20.9 21.8 149.9
HEAVY 25.3 30.8 35.5 30.2 23.2 25.0 170.0

DADGAD D A D G A D
LIGHT 20.6 29.9 30.5 30.2 18.5 18.5 148.2
MEDIUM 23.0 34.0 36.8 35.3 20.9 21.8 171.8
HEAVY 25.3 38.8 44.7 38.0 23.2 25.0 195.0

OPEN D D A D F# A D
LIGHT 20.6 29.9 30.5 26.9 18.5 18.5 144.9
MEDIUM 23.0 34.0 36.8 31.5 20.9 21.8 168.0
HEAVY 25.3 38.8 44.7 33.9 23.2 25.0 190.9

OPEN G D G D G B D
LIGHT 20.6 23.7 30.5 30.2 23.3 18.5 146.8
MEDIUM 23.0 27.0 36.8 35.3 26.3 21.8 170.2
HEAVY 25.3 30.8 44.7 38.0 29.3 25.0 193.1



NOTE: FIGURES SHOWN ARE IN LBS USING A 25.5" Standard] SCALE LENGTH
FOR A 24.75" SCALE LENGTH MULTIPLY TENSION FIGURES SHOWN BY 0.95
FOR A 24.90" SCALE LENGTH MULTIPLY TENSION FIGURES SHOWN BY 0.96
FOR A 25.25" SCALE LENGTH MULTIPLY TENSION FIGURES SHOWN BY 0.98
FOR A 25.40" SCALE LENGTH MULTIPLY TENSION FIGURES SHOWN BY 0.99


For 12 strings:
Martin 12-String 80/20 Bronze Extra Light Acoustic Strings
D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Acoustic Guitar Strings - 12-string Light
010/010 014/014 023/008 030/012 039/018 047/027
Standard tuning: 258 lbs.
1 halfstep down: 230 lbs.
2 halfsteps down: 205 lbs.

Elixir Acoustic Guitar Light 12 String
010/010 014/014 023/009 030/012 039/018 047/027
Standard tuning: 262 lbs.
1 halfstep down: 233 lbs.
2 halfsteps down: 208 lbs.

D'Addario Phosphor Bronze Acoustic Guitar Strings - 12-string Extra Light
09/009 013/013 021/008 029/011 036/016 045/026
Standard tuning: 224 lbs.
1 halfstep down: 200 lbs.
2 halfsteps down: 178 lbs.

Dean Markley Bronze 12-String Acoustic Guitar Strings - Medium
.012/.012 .016/.016 .026/.010 .034/.017 .044/.024 .054/.030
Standard tuning: 366 lbs.
1 halfstep down: 326 lbs.
2 halfsteps down: 291 lbs.


Martin Marquis 12-String 80/20 Bronze Light Acoustic Strings
.012/.012 .016/.016 .025/.010 .032/.014 .042/.020 .054/.030
Standard tuning: 330 lbs.
1 halfstep down: 294 lbs.
2 halfsteps down: 262 lbs.

Elixir Acoustic Guitar Heavy 12 String (for C# tuning)
.013/013 .017/.017 .030/.014 .039/.018 .047/.027 .056/.035
3 frets down: 323 lbs. Surely no one tunes these up to standard. We'd have heard their guitar imploding.

Elixir Acoustic Guitar Medium PolyWeb Coating (6 string)
.013 .017 .026 .035 .045 .056
Standard tuning 192 lbs.

[JohnTully]

I use Dean Markley Vintage Bronze mediums (12/12-54/30) on my Taylor 355 with no problems I tune to standard in D.
I have owned 2 Larrivee 12's (L05, OM03R) and they both were weak in the volume department probably partially due to the light string gauge. I didn't want to take a chance ruining them by using mediums because they were still nice guitars.

Funny...
I put a 355, that I had my heart set on for a long time, back on the wall after playing an L-03-12RE (which is now mine). The sound was more full, and rang out much louder than the Taylor. Let's just chalk that one up to personal preference, though. I am in no way putting Taylors down. They are Phenominal guitars. I'm still dreaming of an LKSM...but actually aquiring it will also require the services of a divorce lawyer.

[JohnTully]

Queequeg....
That's awesome!!!!
I knew someone would put that out there.
Thanks!

[Randy_R]

you'll notice that not all sets of LIGHT 12-strings sets are the same gauge diameters. 

[NotRevGDavis]

Funny...
I put a 355, that I had my heart set on for a long time, back on the wall after playing an L-03-12RE (which is now mine). The sound was more full, and rang out much louder than the Taylor. Let's just chalk that one up to personal preference, though. I am in no way putting Taylors down. They are Phenominal guitars. I'm still dreaming of an LKSM...but actually aquiring it will also require the services of a divorce lawyer.

The Larrivees sounded great but in my ear were missing presence something my 000-50 definitely has. The 355 booms but once again it could have a lot to do with the strings since I use mediums+ on all my guitars.With all the warnings I didn't want to chance a broken Larrivee.

[JohnTully]

Well, I went and put the JohnPearse heavies on  my L-0312 and DID NOT tune higher than C# I am not about to risk an exploding guitar.
The sound: unbeleivable deep, dark, and wicked sweet!!! With a sound like that one could open the gates of hell. I'm not sure it's going to be my all the time setup. I will, however tinker with the setup and record a few songs this way....Old standby songs are super cool. I'm going to go the normal route and use the recommended string size. I'm not going to use cleartones, though. I'll be trying the Newtones...I prefer their gauges (Light-custom) to anything out there.

[Michael T]

I just ordered some 11-52's from Curt Managan, been reading some great things about these "Fusion Matched" strings (whatever that means). They are lighter than Marquis lights but heavier than extra lights. I figure better safe than sorry. Although other than the volume the SP's are quite nice as well as the DR's. Gotta try new things though