Any opinions on the 000's..... Please

[gitbox]

As a novice, I'm finding that the Dread is not working for me. I am considering the 000's. I am learning chords, but seem to mute strings. I know it takes practice, but I'm not progressing as fast as I'd like to be. I would eventually like to learn finger style. I know the L's get alot of play here, but the lower bout is still 16".... a bit too big for me. I've tried the 000 and it seems to have the volume I'm looking for.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

[Tycho]

Paging Ducktrapper!

Remember, though, that the 000s are 12-fret guitars.  If you want a smaller-bodied guitar with 14 frets, check out the OMs.  They're wonderful.

[PortHueneme]

If you have not had your guitar set-up you may want to consider having it done. Muting strings are from the fretting hand. BTW don't feel rained on we all seem to be progressing slower than we would like. Also playing clean is just something that happens, one day you will just go, wow that sounds cool. Anyway if you are not getting your fingers down cleanly make sure your hand position is correct and your mechanics are good, else you are fighting an uphill battle. It is my experience that muted notes while finger picking sound more since you don't have some clean ones to cover them up in a chord. Try practicing some scales, it's boring, but build technique and hand/finger strength. I like to play scales to a rhythm track, it makes it a little more fun than just doing the scales.

Contrary to many beliefs you can finger pick a dread with awesome results. The OM and OOO size box is very comfortable to sit and play. I have a 14 fret OM and a twelve fret SD, I finger pick both. I really like the thumping bass I get on the dread, makes me sound like John Hurt. (in my dreams).

[ducktrapper]

The necks of most guitars are quite similar whether the bodies are or not. Whichever shape of guitar you play will require the mastering of chords and scales. No way around the work and initial frustration. A smaller body guitar may, however, be more comfortable. The Larrivée OOO has a wider neck which may appeal to some over others. While it has a regular scale, it has only 12 frets to the body, which is another factor to consider. I'd say try the 14 fret OM style.

[tuffythepug]

Hi Gitbox
You don't mention in your post how long you've been learning or your age.   I have a feeling that the impatience of youth is at work here.   I agree with Ducktrapper;  the shape of the neck is not going to be a whole lot different from one guitar to another.  Almost everyone learned to play on a Dread. There isn't anything magical about the 000 body guitars when it comes to learning.  I'd bet that the muting of strings is not asssociated with the guitar but with techinque.   Learning the guitar isn't an overnight thing;  It's slow and progress is measured in very small increments while success is a goal with an ever-changing face.  There's no substitute for practice in this deal.   Everyone has been where you are.   Those that have learned to play a lick or two have stayed with it while others gave up when it got hard and their fingers hurt.  How are your calluses developing ?  It's very hard to play clean chords if you haven't developed a pretty good callus on your fingers.
You can do a couple of things to help yourself out.  First, make sure that the guitar is not set up with high action which will make chording more difficult.  Second, install light gauge stings if you're using mediums now. That will also make it a bit easier to get a clean sound until you develop more finger and hand strength.
If you want a 000 body guitar because you like the looks, or the sound or because it's more comfortable to play then go for it. But don't expect it to be a shortcut to learning;  only time and practice will get you there.
Lots of people simply don't have the patience that it takes.  I have a feeling you can do this gitbox.  Give yourself a chance and you'll be rewarded. Relax and enjoy the journey.    Also I agree with the others who've said that the OM body guitars are fantastic if you decide to try something different.

Tuffythepug

[gitbox]

I see you guys here quite a bit since I have joined here. You all seem to have good comments: Let me ask you some more questions.

Tycho - I see that you have an OM and a 00. The 00 is a bit smaller than the OM, Which do you prefer to play? I think the 000 is a little closer to the 00 in bout sizes, and deeper than the OM in body depth. Is this true?

PortHueneme - I bought my Dread (Martin DM) used and haven't really done anything but a couple of string changes. I guess I've heard alot here about string spacing being a real factor in fretting chords and single notes. People have issues even between 1 11/16 and 1 3/4 necks saying that the extra 1/16" makes all the difference in the world. Your OM and SD are larger string spacing. What made you choose these over a standard Dread? I'm a definitely trying to improve my mechanics.

Ducktrapper - It seems like I hear as much about the neck size as I do about body size as a factor for being comfortable with your guitar. I guess I'm looking for the best of both worlds. What advantages are there with the 2 extra frets? 14 v. 12

Tuffy - It's definitely not the impatience of youth. I'm 55 and have been taking lessons for just under a year, but suffered a broken left shoulder blade, several fractured vertebrae, and a half dozen broken ribs from an 18 ft. high fall. That happened in early March and I'm just now trying to get back to playing. Thank you for all the encouraging words about practice, technique, set up, strings, etc. I do like the looks and feel of the 000's, but I don't want to jump too fast to acquire one if all I need to do is practice, practice, practice.

I guess at my age, I want the very best guitar I can find. I thought the 000 would blend neck and body size and depth to give that to me. I have had the chance to play one and it seemed comfortable.

Thank you guys for the input.

Any thing else anyone can add to this thread to help me

[Tycho]

Gitbox,

First, just a general comment on guitar sizes.  I think that given your age and (more importantly) medical history, you should trust your intuition when it comes to body sizes.  Dreads are not for everyone, even though for years we all acted as though they were.  No less an authority than Norman Blake says that he gave up on larger-body guitars, and he said this about dreads: "It's like stringing up the kitchen table and trying to play that."  So if you think the dread is wrong for you, trust your feelings.  My partner is quite small, and when she was learning guitar, she was much happier after she switched from a dread to a Larrivee OM (though she's now moved back up in size to a Gibson slope dread, which is still smaller than a standard dread).

To your specific question, I really like my Larrivee 00, but I would probably never treat it as my main guitar.  It's got a very specific voice.  It's good for old-timey stuff, folk and fingerpicking.  An OM is much more of a "do it all" guitar.  I'm not sure if the 00 is a bit deeper than the OM, but you might be right about that.  The 00 certainly has a smaller "footprint" than the OM, though, and I would say a smaller sound (though it's quite a different sound, so it's hard to compare; also, my 00 is mahogany and my OM is rosewood, which makes a difference in their respective sounds).

The other thing you might want to think about is scale length.  You may find that shorter-scale guitars (Seagulls, most Gibsons) are more comfortable for you than the 25.5" scale found on most Larrivees and Martins.  A shorter scale makes for a less "snappy" sound, but it makes it easier to finger chords and move around the neck. The only Larrivees with short scales are the parlors (and you probably wouldn't want a parlor as your main guitar) and the LSV-11.

[gitbox]

Hey Tycho,

Would a 12 fret guitar have less travel from headstock to body than a 14 fret guitar?  It seems that if it did, you would have less of a reach,like a short scale, but you would still have the longer scale.

Does that make any sense?

[tuffythepug]

Gitbox
Wow.  Sorry to hear of your medical issues.    Hope you are healing up ok.  My mistake about the impatience of youth.   You and I are not far apart in age in fact.  I'm 57 but I've only been playing since age 40 or so.
Don't get me wrong, it's very important that you should learn on a guitar that is comfortable to play and if a dread is not right for you you should consider other body shapes.  I wouldn't want to discourage you from changing guitars.  heck most of us have gone through several by the time we've played for a while.  I was just wanting to re-inforce the idea that nothing can take the place of time and practice when it comes to learning the guitar.  Things like string spacing, scale length, body and neck shape all have an effect on how a guitar feels and plays but I don't think that any of these variables are really related to the learning process accept to the extent that they may allow you to play more comfortably.  I don't know how much your injuries have limited your mobility or dexterity so by all means, play a guitar that is the most comfortable if you can.   If you've been taking lessons for a year and have no prior experience with a guitar cut yourself some slack.  You're probably right where you should be on the learning curve.
Oh, and please stay off ladders.  I took a fall from a ladder a few years ago also.   2 years of constant pain before back surgery gave me a little relief.  Main thing Gitbox......Keep playing and you'll making progress all the time.

[gitbox]

Tuffy,

Thank you for your well rounded advice. I am really motivated to learn the guitar, and I try to practice as much as I can each day. Someone told me, that if you leave your guitar out where you can see it, even picking it up 15 min. at a time a few times a day, will help you learn. I'm trying to do just that. I found the old saying "out of sight... out of mind" to be true when it was formerly kept in the case.

Thanks again my friend.

[Tycho]

Hey Tycho,

Would a 12 fret guitar have less travel from headstock to body than a 14 fret guitar?  It seems that if it did, you would have less of a reach,like a short scale, but you would still have the longer scale.

Does that make any sense?

I'm not an expert on this at all, but I would say no, because the travel from headstock to body depends more on scale length than on number of frets or even size of body (I think).  The 00, with a 25.5" scale, is still a full-length guitar.

[jeremy3220]

Would a 12 fret guitar have less travel from headstock to body than a 14 fret guitar?  It seems that if it did, you would have less of a reach,like a short scale, but you would still have the longer scale.

It is possible that a 12fret would require less reach, but that would be an indirect cause. Sometimes on 12fret guitars the bridge is moved further down toward the lower bout, which would bring the headstock closer to you.
Scale length, how the guitar sits in your lap, bridge position are all things that determine how far you have to reach to get to the first fret.

[PortHueneme]

PortHueneme - I bought my Dread (Martin DM) used and haven't really done anything but a couple of string changes. I guess I've heard alot here about string spacing being a real factor in fretting chords and single notes. People have issues even between 1 11/16 and 1 3/4 necks saying that the extra 1/16" makes all the difference in the world. Your OM and SD are larger string spacing. What made you choose these over a standard Dread? I'm a definitely trying to improve my mechanics.

I bought my OM because I wanted a smaller bodied guitar, I really did not pay much attention to the neck. It is a KOA body and is beautiful which another reason. I knew the neck was a bit wider than my Gibson, but that was really a factor. I gotta tell you though the OM is about the most versatile guitar I own. It does it all, including some slide.

The SD I bought also because it is beautiful. I like slot heads and wanted a sunburst in the collection. The wide neck again was not a factor, but after getting the guitar, i really like the wide neck. I don't seem to have much difficulty switching between guitars. I also play uke so small frets and narrow necks are common.

I am also in the same age range as you. My hands had given me some issues years ago, but fortunately seem to have gone away. Two years ago I was in bed for 12 weeks with a broken left leg. I found that playing was good therapy as I use my left foot for keeping time. When I was in the hospital I was playing uke one evening, the nurse came in and so my foot moving and told me that it was the best thing I could do to keep stretching the ankle. I had been in pain during the therapy sessions, but was completely unaware of my tapping while I was playing.

As far a scale goes 24 3/4 is 24 3/4 and 25 1/2 is 25 1/2. A Larrivee twelve fret neck is still 25 1/2. The middle of the neck is a little closer to your body and may change your posture, but the fret spacing is further than a short scale. I have short fingers and like the short scaled Gibsons. I gig with the Gibson if I am doing blues stuff in the middle of the neck. For chords and folk/country stuff I can play either. If I am using the twelve string for some numbers, I will take either the OM or the SD to make switching a bit easier. Lately I have been gigging with the "O". If I am plugged in, it does not matter that it is a small guitar. In fact it is very comfortable and easy to carry.

[Mr_LV19E]

I'm 55 and have been taking lessons for just under a year, but suffered a broken left shoulder blade, several fractured vertebrae, and a half dozen broken ribs from an 18 ft. high fall. That happened in early March and I'm just now trying to get back to playing. Thank you for all the encouraging words about practice, technique, set up, strings, etc. I do like the looks and feel of the 000's, but I don't want to jump too fast to acquire one if all I need to do is practice, practice, practice.
Any thing else anyone can add to this thread to help me

gitbox,
sorry to hear of your injury. It looks by your statement that you played for 8 or 9 months, got hurt, had about three months for recovery and then picked the guitar back up. Go easy on yourself, you experienced a setback, give yourself time to get back to where you were before your fall. 25 yrs ago I was pretty good at guitar then one day I just quit playing. I took the guitar out of the case a few times during that off period and was very disappointed in how I sounded and just put it away again. Encouraged by my wife and grown kids I started practicing again at the end of last year. For the most part it was like starting over, it is by no means like riding a bike. Everyone is different and there is no set time period to attain your goals. Go slow and enjoy every step along the way, and by all means leave the guitar out where you can just grab it (just make sure the humidity level in your house is stable). Try to slowly lengthen your practice sessions.
Life is to short to play a guitar that is not comfortable, try different ones until you find what fits you best. Two of my guitars have 1 11/16" nut but my L is 1 3/4" and I have to say I was amazed at the difference a 1/16" could make(I have fat fingers). The L body is also much more comfortable for my right arm. I also think that a proper setup makes a huge difference in playability, if you keep the guitar you have, find a good luthier.
Best of luck to you,
Roger

[spenser]

Git-I'm with the rest of the guys on this reply.  Old man, just turned 45, self taught for the last year.  Started with an OM 03 two years ago, decided that I had to have a D-28 Martin and HATED the small neck, but loved the sound.  Was also very painful to me, even though I am large (6'3", 300 pound with 38 inch sleeve length).  Walked into my local Larivee dealer and absolutely fell head over heals in LUST with an OMV-60 and took it home that day.  That guitar will never leave my ownership!  However, the 1 3/4 inch neck is problematic for me to finger pick as beginner given the size of my hand.  Solved that by finding and SD-50 that was calling my name.  That guitar shall also never leave my ownership!  Love the neck size for fingerpicking and both guitars just make me smile every time I take them out of the case-cant put a price on that.

I will echo the others replies as well-I get INCREDIBLY frustrated with the progress that I am making and continue to plateau at times.  Keep playing, enjoy what you play and it will come.  I have those "ah ha" moments when things come together and they make it worthwhile.  I am also finding that once you peal away all the "voodoo" stuff about playing , it really is just a couple of dozen chords put differnet places on the neck. 

[gitbox]

WOW!!

You guys are all great. Thanks for the encouragement. I'm just looking for the right equipment and motivation to stay with this. It's something I've always wanted to do. Never ever thought it would come easy, and I know i takes work.

Thanks again,

PS. On scale length... I think Jeremy confirmed my thinking that the attachment of the neck to the body at the 12th fret does shorten the reach, and the scale length is what it is, either 25.5" or 24.75" or whatever. I don't see myself playing much beyond the 12th fret. That's the farthest I've been for "Blackbird" (Beatles).

[gary0319]

Gitbox,

I'll just add my2 cents from another old f... I'm over 60 so you "kids" will have to excuse me. Been playing actively for about the last 6 years after dragging around an old Sigma 12 string for years and hardly ever getting it out of the case. I think I've tried about every body shape and neck width in the last few years and most recently purchased a 000-50 from another forum member. To me this is about a close as I can come to an ideal guitar. Smaller body than a Dread, but with greater depth than an OM, which gives it a bigger sound to my ear. 12 frets is an easier reach than my 14 fretters, the headstock is almost an inch closer to the body. The tight waist lets the body ride lower on your knee. Also the strings are actually a little off center to t he bass side at the sound hole. So, everyhing starts to get just a little more compacted right towards my chest and is very comfortable.

I play some Flamenco and classicals also so the wider 1 13/16 nut is great. I tried a number of times to get used to the narrower 1 11/16 nuts common with dreads, but my fingers just seemed to always be climbing on top of one another. Now, I'm self taught so a lot of that could be just poor technique. However, even the Martin 12 fret I had with a 1 3/4 nut seemed tight compared to the Larrivee 1 3/4  necks, so I'll echo that not all nuts of the same width are equal.

Anyway, I went down your same path and ended up with the 000-50 and couldn't be happier. I'll admit that the 000-50 is the second most beautiful thing in my house and that helps keep me wanting to continue to practice.

Good luck

[jeremy3220]

PS. On scale length... I think Jeremy confirmed my thinking that the attachment of the neck to the body at the 12th fret does shorten the reach, and the scale length is what it is, either 25.5" or 24.75" or whatever. I don't see myself playing much beyond the 12th fret. That's the farthest I've been for "Blackbird" (Beatles).

well, I only said it is possible. You could have a situation where the only difference is the upper bout is lengthened, but I think usually the upper bout is lengthened, the waist moved toward the headstock and the bridge moved lower in the lower bout (all this helps achieve a more balanced look from top to bottom). So yeh, I think in most cases it is a shorter reach with a 12fret guitar... I could be wrong though.

[ducktrapper]

Ducktrapper - It seems like I hear as much about the neck size as I do about body size as a factor for being comfortable with your guitar. I guess I'm looking for the best of both worlds. What advantages are there with the 2 extra frets? 14 v. 12

Well with what everyone else has said, you'll only need the two extra frets if you intend to play up there. If you like to solo, you'll find them essential, if you mainly play cowboy chords, you won't. It's not so much the number of frets though, as what happens to the guitar when it's constructed this way. 1. It usually makes for a longer upper bout giving you a larger body. 2. The bridge is further from the soundhole and the middle of the guitar. These things have an effect on the sound of a guitar. The question becomes, is the sum of these effects something I'd like or need. And I'm sorry but only you can answer the question. I can only say that I (and all my friends) love my OOO.