Rosewood overtone clash?

[jpmist]

I can't remember who on this board is fairly insistent on not liking rosewood back and sides. I have no issue with that as it boils down to musical taste and preferences, but it stuck out in my mind since and I'm now curious why. I'm new to rosewood having always favored spruce/mahogany.

Which leads me to this post where I think I may have figured it out. Recently during my standard GarageBand recording session with my OO-44, I thought I picked up on a lot of, for lack of a better word, clashing, or dissonance of resonant tones during my folky fingerstyle play. The primary notes seem fine, but it's my understanding that rosewood offers more of the 3rd, 5th and 7th etc overtones which for the song I was playing didn't seem to blend well together. It was not a pleasing sound. Mind you, I don't claim to have that advanced an ear, but picking up a mahogany OO right after, the difference was pretty evident.

If anyone is still reading, my question is simply, as the three year old lightly played OO-44 ages, is there any chance this dissonance will recede? It could simply be that the strings have aged past their prime (6+months - John Pearce PhBronze, I can often go 9 months on my mahogany guitars) so strings are on order. Any comments welcome.

[B0WIE]

I'm generally not wild about East Indian Rosewood because it generates a lot of overtones in the upper bass region. As a recording engineer, upper bass is often a problem region so I'm sensitive to anything that's strong in the upper bass. To some it's "warmth". For others it's mud.

That said, it won't necessarily dictate the build. Hand tuned instruments are made to balance these things out. I had a Froggy Bottom in EAR that was bright and lean when compared to an otherwise identical walnut model. It was all in the tuning of the woods and braces.

Clashing overtones can indicate a problem. If they don't fit in the scale, or are not musically flattering, either the build is problematic or something is contributing to it. Strings are the most common problem. Fresh strings can be a little aggressive in overtones. Old strings can have all sorts of problems, particularly due to the fret dents that affect the oscillation.

Not all the overtones in an instrument will work well in the key, which is why some notes sound amazing in one spot on the fret board, and sour on others.

[jpmist]

Clashing overtones can indicate a problem. If they don't fit in the scale, or are not musically flattering, either the build is problematic or something is contributing to it. Strings are the most common problem. Fresh strings can be a little aggressive in overtones. Old strings can have all sorts of problems, particularly due to the fret dents that affect the oscillation.

Not all the overtones in an instrument will work well in the key, which is why some notes sound amazing in one spot on the fret board, and sour on others.

Well, thanks for confirming the overtone issue is even a thing. It could well be the key and where I have the capo placed perhaps. My ears are still on the long road to being educated in stuff others talk about routinely. And I'm new to the rosewood tone after decades of only spruce/hog.

I'm just kinda surprised that I never noticed the dissonance on the satin OO-03R that I'm close to seller's regret about. It occurs to me to offer the track I was recording to see if anyone hears it, but I've lost track of which I was working on, but will keep an ear out for it . . .

[B0WIE]

People usually don't hear this stuff so don't feel like there was anything wrong with you not noticing it before. A lot of professionals don't even pick up on overtone issues. It's not something a guitarist needs to think much about.

[mike in lytle]

I can't remember who on this board is fairly insistent on not liking rosewood back and sides. I have no issue with that as it boils down to musical taste and preferences, but it stuck out in my mind since and I'm now curious why. I'm new to rosewood having always favored spruce/mahogany.

I haven't brought it up recently, but it may be me you are thinking of. I'm glad you brought it up.
Not that I have an active distaste for EIR, cause I have an LV-10 and L-03R-12 string, but some larger body EIR's can get very crowded and indistinct in the bass when getting with busy picking patterns. Sure, if you play through an amp you can adjust the bass, and if you record you can EQ it out, and I admit I never thought about "why" this is beyond thinking about bloom and decay. You and Bowie have given me more to think/read about, because I have never been able to describe the good stuff I hear in Larrivees, and I have become cautious of using terms like overtone and harmonic. It sounds "rich", or is more or less "lush", or "sounds like old strings" (doesn't mean that's a bad thing).
Anyhow, for me the issue was resolved a few years ago when I found my two Larrivee laurels, which seem down into EIR territory, but without the stuff I don't like.
And yeah, Bowie is right, it's not something we need to think that much about, but when you DO start thinking and noticing stuff that bugs you, you either eliminate it, or learn to understand it and work with it.
Mike

[jpmist]

Thanks, Mike, for fessing up. I was usually left wondering what exactly was the issue you had with rosewood and now thinking I'd finally stumbled on it myself. I have some work to do to investigate exactly where on the fretboard I'm playing that reveals it, cause for the most part, I really enjoy the richness of tone the guitar offers.

It could just simply be that I've stumbled on a rare Larrivee lemon. It happens and it won't be my first one. That rare guitar on the far end of the bell curve where all the skill put into design and manufacture simply resulted in a harsh sounding guitar. I'm convinced the guitar is truly cursed as it's become a dent magnet, an anomaly of nature where anything falling within 6 feet of it will somehow land on the soundboard . . .

[headsup]

Thanks fir this enlightening thread!

Unfortunately, the only way I have found to compensate for the extra tonal overtones in some guitars, as opposed to others,
is to have a few on hand, of different body styles ( L, C OM mostly) and different tone woods ( EIR, BZ HOG, Maple) and- depending of the call,
audition each one, and decide which is best for the gig or session.

Every guitar, any tone wood, has it's strengths and weaknesses, which can also change depending on what the specific call is.( for me anyways)

I know it' sounds like justification for more guitars, maybe it is.

Don't know about other players around here, but, each one has it's own personality, and well...
we can't take them ALL to the party can we?

[teh]

I agree with the last post about having different body styles on hand. Fortunately, we all have plenty of options to choose from and I have applied that concept to my purchases. Here's a quick summary of my guitars.

Body size - Dreadnought (2), OM, 000, Parlor, L, LSV, Backpacker

Top - Sitka Spruce (5), moonwood (1), Mahogany (2)

Back/sides - EIR (2), Mahogany (3), flamed maple (1), laminate mahogany (1), walnut (1)

14 fret (4), 12 Fret (3)

Strings, bridge pins, pickups, nut/saddle and setups are all relatively easy ways to fine tune the sound and playability of a guitar. I have a couple more guitar purchases left in me and I have discovered that half the fun is in the search.

[jpmist]

Thanks fir this enlightening thread! Every guitar, any tone wood, has it's strengths and weaknesses, which can also change depending on what the specific call is.( for me anyways)

I know it' sounds like justification for more guitars, maybe it is.

 

Yeah, I get what you mean and I suppose if I were a professional song writer I'd have a few different arrows in my quiver, some guitars will work for some songs/arrangements better than others.  But in the last 10-15 years I've tried a larger OOO, Taylor -14 series, all hog & silver oak and they all got sold off in favor of my OO spruce/hogs. So I figure I'm done experimenting.

Time to change strings today on that OO-44 so fingers crossed and maybe later I'll open up the can of worms question about what type strings work better on rosewood than on mahogany. Thinking if the phos-bronze doesn't work, maybe try 80/20. . . (which might be worse?)

[B0WIE]

I don't write professionally but, it never ceases to amaze me how I can write something that really excites me on one guitar, and find it feels a little dead on another guitar. Or, the opposite, something might sound sweet on my 00, then become a busy mess on a dread. It's all about the overtones.

[headsup]

It's not just about songwriting on a guitar.
I'm a working musician, so Play a lot of different material, with different people.

It's as much about how dead or how new the strings are.

switching to Monels or D'addario Nickel Bronze certainly tamed some of the unwanted resonance in certain positions  on the fretboard.

some guitars just have a certain resonance issue.
try tuning down a semi tone to see if it changes.

[Mikeymac]

It's as much about how dead or how new the strings are.

switching to Monels or D'addario Nickel Bronze certainly tamed some of the unwanted resonance in certain positions  on the fretboard.

I was just going to suggest these strings (Martin Monel Retros and D'Addario Nickel Bronze) to tame overtones when I saw headsup's post. At first when you put them on, they may sound a little stark (especially the Monel Retros). Give them 3-7 days to settle in and see if they help with the unwanted overtones. Tony Rice used to swear by 'em! Both he and Laurence Juber have signature sets of the Monels...and both of them play Rosewood guitars.

[jpmist]

So, an update of sorts. First wanna thank y'all for the string suggestions. Have never tried the ones mentioned and nickle/bronze strings have been totally off my radar. I'm making a note of those for the next string change.

I went back and tried to find the recorded track that started all this and simply couldn't.

So before I changed out the strings on my OO-44 I did an instrumental recording on the 12 month old strings, capo on 3rd fret key Am.  Then after I put a fresh set of the same type and brand strings I immediately did a second recording of the same instrumental track with the mics and everything else the exact same. Honestly, I can't tell the difference, maybe you guys can. On the bright side, my fondness for my OO-44's lovely rich tone has returned although it still remains a dent magnet.

Thinking back it could be that my mic placement at the time may have contributed to my bad tone clash. I had placed the mic more on the treble side of the guitar than I normally do so perhaps that extra brightness was an issue, or it could be that because I normally record two panned tracks with a vocal and a guitar mike perhaps I had some phase issues I've never been aware of before.

If you have 2 x 45 seconds to kill and are curious, the link to the track is here

>>>> https://soundcloud.com/jpmist/larrivee-rosewood-oo-44-string-test/s-WvEUJocUZ2h?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

I'm gonna let you guys go in blind on the order of new/old or old/new. The answer to that can be found at the bottom of this window way below this line

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The first recording you hear was done with the old strings . . .
Thanks for listening if you got this far!