Bone saddle, end pins on L-03WL

[jeremy3220]

I don't understand that sentiment. This is 2012, we are able to measure sound, vibrational patterns, and use physics to understand modes of energy transfer.  How energy interacts with bridge pins is an objective phenomenon; so opinion can definitely be wrong. Personally I think these discussions should be to learn not reaffirm each other's emotions at the expense of truth. That includes me. I want to hear scientific based evidence whether or not it agrees with what I say but please don't pretend we can't know anything.

[HAMFIST]

What has helped me in recent years is that my opinons tend to fluctuate. So at any given time, I realize that the opinions I have, I may reject at any time.

One of my heroes, Bob Sutton, says we ought to have well-developed beliefs that are loosely held. That makes sense to me.

[HAMFIST]

Just to reiterate the hold this guitar now has over me ...

I played it a bunch last night after I got it dialed in. This morning at 7 a.m. I was at an acoustic jam at a local coffee shop. Went to taekwondo with the kids.

Came home and played some more.

Now, once the SUPERGLUE HOLDING THE CALLOUS ONTO MY LEFT MIDDLE FINGER DRIES, I'll be back at it.

I think I will need an ANONYMOUS program pretty soon ...

[cbarclay]

Just to reiterate the hold this guitar now has over me ...

I played it a bunch last night after I got it dialed in. This morning at 7 a.m. I was at an acoustic jam at a local coffee shop. Went to taekwondo with the kids.

Came home and played some more.

Now, once the SUPERGLUE HOLDING THE CALLOUS ONTO MY LEFT MIDDLE FINGER DRIES, I'll be back at it.

I think I will need an ANONYMOUS program pretty soon ...

I'm with you. When I got my L03WL a week ago I thought the newness would wear off and it's only growing since I operated on the bridge and replace the pins. I can't stop playing it and can't stop thinking about it. We've got some pretty special guitars I'd say!   

[HAMFIST]

I'm with you. When I got my L03WL a week ago I thought the newness would wear off and it's only growing since I operated on the bridge and replace the pins. I can't stop playing it and can't stop thinking about it. We've got some pretty special guitars I'd say!   

So that would be a Larrivee Guitar Anonymous group for would it be specific to the L-03WL?

[lmacmil]

...so opinion can definitely be wrong.

That's nonsense.  An opinion, by definition, is subjective. 

I think what you probably mean is that when someone claims to be able to hear a difference in say, different bridge pin materials, we should be able to quantify that difference by measurement.  I agree with that. 

In my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it! 

[HAMFIST]

That's nonsense.  An opinion, by definition, is subjective. 

I think what you probably mean is that when someone claims to be able to hear a difference in say, different bridge pin materials, we should be able to quantify that difference by measurement.  I agree with that. 

In my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it! 

Indeed. There does seem to be a lot of cork sniffing going on among guitar people. "I detect a subtle note of fossilized walrus ivory and a faint hint of lacewood and a touch of impertinance!"

But when my wife notices a difference, I figure something valid is going on. She DOES have a degree in music education, but is no guitar snob.

In many cases, differences may be quantified, but how do you know what to measure? Volume? EQ profile? Attack profile? Some things may be very hard to measure, like projection.

[jeremy3220]

That's nonsense.  An opinion, by definition, is subjective. 

Not always, people certainly don't use it that way, for instance...

In my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences.

You could be wrong, obviously the differences people claim to hear is not subject to your position on the matter. Either much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences or they aren't. That position is not subjective; maybe formation of that opinion is subjective in the sense that it was formed on emotion but that's not important.

[jeremy3220]

In many cases, differences may be quantified, but how do you know what to measure? Volume? EQ profile? Attack profile? Some things may be very hard to measure, like projection.

You could do frequency analysis to compare the effects of different pins but the important point is that the differences in sound and the causes are objective and we should attempt to learn rather than throw up our hands and say 'we can't know, it's all subjective.'

[HAMFIST]

You could do frequency analysis to compare the effects of different pins but the important point is that the differences in sound and the causes are objective and we should attempt to learn rather than throw up our hands and say 'we can't know, it's all subjective.'

A while ago, there was a really cool thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. They posted sound clips of the same guitar with various bridge saddle and pin configurations. There WERE differences.

Hard thing is describing/characterizing them and determining which is preferable.

[lmacmil]

A while ago, there was a really cool thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. They posted sound clips of the same guitar with various bridge saddle and pin configurations. There WERE differences.

I don't doubt that different saddle materials sound different to some.  However, I think the differences are much more subtle than some of the descriptions I see posted (by the "cork sniffers").  And if you are playing for an audience, I can just about guarantee that no one in the audience  (except the guitar players) cares what kind of saddle material, bridge pins, strings or whatever the player is using.  People are listening to the music and watching the performance.  They care little or nothing about guitar tone.

[HAMFIST]

I don't doubt that different saddle materials sound different to some.  However, I think the differences are much more subtle than some of the descriptions I see posted (by the "cork sniffers").  And if you are playing for an audience, I can just about guarantee that no one in the audience  (except the guitar players) cares what kind of saddle material, bridge pins, strings or whatever the player is using.  People are listening to the music and watching the performance.  They care little or nothing about guitar tone.

I would tend to concur that an audience is pretty clueless to many things a guitarist may be attuned to. When playing unplugged with others, I HAVE experienced that moving to a better saddle material at least helps me hear MYSELF better though.

Here is the thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum I was thinking of, but the links to the audio samples are now broken.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169459&highlight=bone+nut+saddle+sample

[cbarclay]

I would tend to concur that an audience is pretty clueless to many things a guitarist may be attuned to. When playing unplugged with others, I HAVE experienced that moving to a better saddle material at least helps me hear MYSELF better though.

Here is the thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum I was thinking of, but the links to the audio samples are now broken.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169459&highlight=bone+nut+saddle+sample

Thanks for posting that link, I'll look forward to looking at it.

I agree that most of the time the audience won't detect some of the minute details but if it makes a difference to you it may hep your instrument to come through better.
The reason I switched from my OM-03 to the L-03 was so I could hear myself better and also come through better.  I couldn't be happier that I made the switch.
By the way, HAMFIST, I put on my 'old faithful' Pearse PB Mediums on mine last night and played out this morning and it was even better.  The whole thing vibrates like a drum.  Very pleased indeed.

[Mr_LV19E]

There is no standard to be able to make an opinion on what makes the difference you hear between saddles, in other words there are too many variables.
IE, if you put new strings on a guitar with saddle "A" then loosen the strings to change to saddle "B" you don't know whether the change you hear is from the new saddle or the strings that have been altered by loosening and retuning. If you put new strings on at the same time when switching from saddle "A" to saddle "B" it could be the strings that made the difference. Also, one saddle may fit the slot just a little better than the other.

There are just too many variables when recording these demos to say for certain what is making the sound different, some of which could be string attack, slight changes in where on the string it was struck, minor mic position changes just to name a few and also the cumulative effect of all of the above.

The main thing is that you like what you like and whatever anybody else thinks is irrelevant.

You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.

[HAMFIST]

You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.

Could be rephrased as "You can't please everyone so you've got to please your wife."

[cbarclay]

Great points.  Especially this one:

The main thing is that you like what you like and whatever anybody else thinks is irrelevant.

I've had a few sets of strings go dead after loosening them to make an adjustment of some sort. 

Could be rephrased as "You can't please everyone so you've got to please your wife."

!!!

[Mr_LV19E]

I've had a few sets of strings go dead after loosening them to make an adjustment of some sort.   !!!

Same here, that's why I included that variable.

[HAMFIST]

Indeed, string install is a key factor affecting tone. Some folks have suggested that new bone pins can affect tone just by virtue of how they fit tightly into the bridge and anchor the string firmly against the bridge plate. Mine do seem to lock in there with a loud CLICK once you seat the string.