Does anyone know if it's even remotely possible, for under a million dollars, to put a gloss finish on a existing satin finish guitar? I just can't stand the constant hiss thats made with any contact with the soundboard or body? Do you just get used to it? I really don't want to sell this Koa Parlor :<>
Nick
Quote from: Rescon on January 09, 2006, 11:55:50 AM
Does anyone know if it's even remotely possible, for under a million dollars, to put a gloss finish on a existing satin finish guitar? I just can't stand the constant hiss thats made with any contact with the soundboard or body? Do you just get used to it? I really don't want to sell this Koa Parlor :<>
Nick
Have you seen the notes about "orsinoizing"? which is a process used by forum members using Macguires polish ?
I haven't done it, but numerous forum members have.
Somebody give Rescon the link to "Orsino-izing"!
This will give you a semi-gloss polish that eliminates the swoosh--I even did the pickguard, with no signs of harm. AND, no swoosh. And it looks great!
http://www.tomyoungguitar.com/L-01Polish.html
I've done it to all my satin guitars. That swoosh is awful especially when recording. Easy to do and looks great.
bring on the swoosh!!!!!!!!!!!!
the only part that sucks is that when you play the guitar for many years, the swoosh naturally gets rubbed off anyway. i do think that orsino-izing looks pretty cool though. speaking of that guy, orsino, what ever happned to him? i dont recall seeing him here for a while? or maybe ive just not been paying attn.
Orsino is currently hanging out at the APM and Celtic Guitar Talk Forums.
I recently bought a D-03 12 string from Ebay. It was advertised as having a satin finish which had become slightly glossy in spots with use. It's a 1997. When I got it, it was obvious that someone had glossed it. And it actually looks like they did a pretty good job. Its nice and even over entire guitar. At first, I was a little aggravated given that it was not the "traditional" D-03 satin, as advertised. But from listening to you guys (who have a lot more experience than I do), it sounds like it's really preferred. (I have a D-03 6 string with the satin and never noticed any hissing.) Should I consider that I got a bargain? Anything I should look for to indicate good gloss job vs. a bad one?
This thread is timely and may have saved me some real grief. Would someone clear this up for me. I am confused...more than normally! I just read Tom Young's instructions as posted above. They seem to be different than other instructions that I remembered reading a few months ago.
Over the weekend I purchased some 0000 steel wool and some Meguiar's Scratch X. I had thought this was all that was necessary to get the semi-gloss finish. Do I need to get Meguire's #1 and #2 and some wax?
I am sorry to bring this up again, but the swoosh is too loud for recording and I want to record my new/used D-03R. Besides, this, Tom's guitars look great to me.
Michael
Heartwood,
Check out this thread, It might help explain the process. :mellow:
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5012.0
kdonovan
Quote from: kdonovan on January 09, 2006, 04:27:46 PM
Heartwood,
Check out this thread, It might help explain the process. :mellow:
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5012.0
kdonovan
kdonovan,
Thanks for pointing me to this thread. I reread Peter Cree's post and this seems to be the information I had remembered. So, I seem to be okay with only the steel wool and Scratch X. Scratch X IS Meguiars "step 1" ... and step 2 is not necessary? I am not usually this dense but there is so much apparently conflicting information that I am not certain as to the definitive word on this...although it looks like Peter is the man! The examples on his web site are extraordinary!
Michael
QuoteI am not usually this dense but. . .
It's not density at all. It's caution. And rightly so.
A Meguire's gloss job can indeed be screwed up if you get too zealous and rub through the finish.
I've glossed both a Martin 000-15S and the back and sides of a 000C-16RGT. 'Turned out lovely. Just be careful and back off rubbing when areas start to shine up.
Some observations from my experience for what it's worth:
I did not notice a tonal difference in the 000C-16RGTE (maybe made the guitar sound a little brighter). The 000-15S gloss job DID alter the tone noticably. It got brighter and a little louder with more sustain. I was talking to a luthier about this one day and he used the analogy of a clear, smooth banjo skin vs a frosted white one: the frosted white one (satin finish) is more mellow with a little less volume. The clear, smooth head has more bite and volume.
I would not recommend usinge Meguire's Polish (the step 2 product), it tends to dampen the sound I think.
Also, the gloss job will not look like factory gloss. I found it will smudge more easily and requires a little more maintenance to keep shined up. BUT, like others have said, the upside is you have considerably less friction noise against your chest, knee, arm and anything else that rubs against the guitar.
If I can get to love my 0M-03R when it gets here, I'm planning on glossing it.
Heartwood,
Step 2 is the polish and this is what will give you the shine after the old finish has been taken down with the steel wool. Usually 3 to 4 coats or until you get the results you are looking for. I have polished several guitars and have never had one dampen the sound. I always thought they sounded and looked better. Good luck
kdonovan
Heres some pics of how shiny mine got after this same polishing treatment. FYI, I find that the backs and sides come out geat, but I've never been as happy with the final result on the spruce tops, I've done about 4 different 03 guitars. I just can't get the top anywhere as shiny as the harder back & side woods, the tops have just remained an unsatisfying, uneven dull gloss by comparison. So much so that I just left the top alone on this OM-03W, and just did the back and sides. Does anyone else have this same problem polishing their top?
(http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL208/996154/4201316/82824294.jpg)
(http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL208/996154/4201316/82824245.jpg)
(http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL208/996154/4201316/82824222.jpg)
(http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL208/996154/4201316/52244647.jpg)
*
QuoteI just can't get the top anywhere as shiny as the harder back & side woods, the tops have just remained an unsatisfying, uneven dull gloss by comparison.
Is it possible that the top has more/less finish applied, or is buffed differently, at the factory? Anyone have any insight on this?
Matte finishes are not buffed at the factory. In fact the reason they are used is to skip that entire procedure which is costly and time consuming.
Buffing doesn't affect tone.
There are no "coats". It isn't finish.
There is a faq page that lists the steps to follow. If you skip any steps or jump straight to the final polish you'll have problems.
If your top is uneven its due to skipping a step.
Nope,I followed the directions to the letter, including all the steps, with steel wool on step #1. My theory is that the top wood, being lighter colored, is harder to see the effect of the steel wool, to be sure you are buffing the same amount in all areas. It seems way easier to get steel wool buffing uniformity on the darker back & side woods. You do your best to buff the top evenly, but it's just harder to see, until you gloss it up and discover that the polish is uneven. Another SWAG theory is that the top spruce wood, being much softer, is more just difficult to buff evenly with the steel wool, or maybe just takes the polish different than the harder B&S? Like I said, just a SWAG. But after 4-5 guitar top like this, I gave up on the tops being polished.
I'm teetering back and forth on whether or not to "gloss" my satin finish. Basically I'm just really nervous about doing it... I don't want to mess anything up. So I'm wondering, as I'm doing the steel wool step, how will I know when I've rubbed enough? Will I see a gloss, or will that not come until I use the Scratch X and polish? Thanks!
--Ross--
Quote from: tak2larri on January 11, 2006, 11:42:52 AM
I'm teetering back and forth on whether or not to "gloss" my satin finish. Basically I'm just really nervous about doing it... I don't want to mess anything up. So I'm wondering, as I'm doing the steel wool step, how will I know when I've rubbed enough? Will I see a gloss, or will that not come until I use the Scratch X and polish? Thanks!
--Ross--
Ross,
You do not have to use the steel wool, although it will have more gloss if you do.
I did my guitars back in the unelightened days when we did the Meguiar's 3 step. (The third step has silicones in it so don't repeat my mistake). The first step requires some sort of abrasive whether it is steel wool or some sort of liquid abrasive to prepare the rough matte finish to be polished. Scratch-X will do that or Meguiar's Crystal Shine step one (the name may vary slightly from that) will work too but not as well.
Basically, if you put pressure on the steel wool, you are pushing too hard. You are only trying to take the peaks off the matte to get a smooth finish. Take your time or you will go right through the finish. Save the elbow grease for the Meguiar's Step 2. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Just to toss a monkey wrench into all this...........
There are many ways to do this. Using the wool is only to mow down the particulate and make step 2 easier.
Now if you want to skip the entire first steps heres another way to go. Turle wax rubbing compound. yup. Use the red to get the main work done. It'll leave small "scratches" like the wool does. then use the white (fine) to get the scratches out and a good shine. And thats all.
Then there's the wet-dry sandpaper method...............
For the tops you might try just the white. That should even everything out without much chance of problems.
Another tip...........wrap the cloth (only use cotton tee shirt material) around a flat block of wood. This sanding block will keep things flat as fingertips might be inconsistent. Get a tight wrap without having ends or sharp sides protruding. Put the compound on the cloth. You can get into the tough spaces easier like the bridge and the fretboard.
Teaching finishing over the net is not easy. not easy in person either.
Quote from: dbirchett on January 11, 2006, 11:56:25 AM
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Well, I did it last night. I was nervous, but found that having a beer calmed those nerves a little. :TON> I may have been a little too cautious because I still get a tiny bit of the "swishing" on the soundboard... but it is noticeably less. I left the neck and headstock alone. Overall, I'm pleased... it looks great! Oh, and I did 6 applications of ScratchX... do you all think I need to do another step? Like some kind of polish? Or should I just leave it how it is? Thanks for all the help!
--Ross--
I just found out that glossing a new Larrivee guitar will void the warranty? 'Think I'll put off glossing indefinitely. ^_^
What? We've contacted Larrivee numerous times on the warrantee issue. they always said it did NOT void it.
Anyone have a definitive answer here because people who called on that were told the opposite.
C'mon Larrivee, what is it?
My point here is that if it voids warantee and that we've called on this, then the Larrivee forum and any of us who have been asked advice on this topic..........................well, guess we have to eliminate this from the FAQ's page and I can no longer give out the info.
It would have been the responsible thing to do to inform us of this policy change.
I received an email today from Larrivee customer service after having asked the question. Before I post a portion of that email, I will contact them again and ask the same question.
Here is the email I received from Bryan with my question attached:
Quote4) I'm planning to gloss both of my Larrivee guitars: will it void the warranty? And do you have clear pick guard replacements for these guitars?
a. Yes it will void the warranty, and we do not recommend doing it.
b. We do have a few gloss pickguards. They will be available at the online store when it comes back up in a few weeks
I just got off the phone with Bryan and he confirmed that the Larrivee family said it will indeed void the warranty.
I was surprised too. I sure didn't mean to stir up trouble, folks.
Not good news about the warranty policy change concerning polishing . I wonder why they have changed thier position ??
Does anyone know what Martin or Taylor do with this same question ???
The quoted answer about the clear pickguards, said "gloss". Was that a mispirint or misunderstood question ??
phill :mellow:
Well, I have completed the back and sides of my D-03R and it looks great! More importantly,oIt has reduced the annoying "swoosh" 85% on the back and sides. I will finish the front and be glad that I did it. I can now use this wonderful guitar on recordings. As far as the warranty goes, mine was purchased used and not under warranty anyway. But, I would appreciate knowing the rationale behind Larrivee's new policy.
I will give the folks at Larrivee the benifit of the doubt, but an explanation would clear things up for me. What does this process effect that is actually covered by warranty?
Michael
It's changing horses in the middle of the stream.........
Only buy used Larrivees.
Quote from: JohnM2001 on January 10, 2006, 09:02:01 AM
...Does anyone else have this same problem polishing their top?
My top came out OK. I had to spend extra time on the four corners-they just wouldn't buff out-and the areas around the bridge and fretboard, but the result was quite even.
Lew
I did this one a while ago. It's hard to show the loveliness of it in photos.
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/whiskeyjack/000-15s/00015S%20resize%204.JPG)
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/whiskeyjack/000-15s/000-15S%20resize%203.JPG)
That 00015s is gorgeous. Alot like mine!!!!!!!!! Fantastic guitar worth much more than the price.
Larrivee has made its reputation as a quality, Canadian, "human" , company that when contacted , you could get quality interaction and dependable service.
It's not as if the company is completely abandoning that. BUT when you could call Brian just 6 months ago and get a response of "sounds like a good and inexpensive way to get a gloss finish" and now its "warrantee void".........well I guess theres a price to pay for growth.
I don't get it...so does it void the warranty for the section that glosses naturally with playing? My Martin OM-15, when I had it, did that after about a year, where my arm rested. I took the 0000 steel wool to it to even everything out. I hope Mathew chimes in on this or Brian. It would be nice to get a clarification.
Great point. Whats the cut-off date? Since we were told it was OK previously, then the warrantee should still be good for that date?
This'll get complex.........
QuoteLarrivee has made its reputation as a quality, Canadian, "human" , company that when contacted , you could get quality interaction and dependable service.
I'll tell ya what. . . .you are dead on with that statement!! Martin is simply NOT that way. Taylor hedges somewhat as well. And everything to do with either of them is slowwwwwww. . . .as in, geologic-time-slow. My hair has gotten thinner and grayer, and it looks as though a glacier has formed to the west of my house since I ordered my Martin custom twelve.
There is someone at Larrivee to field the question and to make suggestions if I don't like the answer.
The recent case-quality issue regarding my OM twelve string is a case-in-point. They are responsive, and they are concerned. . . .and they do used this forum as a business tool. It just might take some time.
Well I think that 00015 sure looks purty in the photos; great job! I dont see how anyone cant think of doing this to a satin finish (but thats just me).
Now, concerning that warranty...my eyes are all ears ( :UND>) with the policy change. Lets hope Matthew is logging in here, and sees this. I should be getting 1st hand information soon, as I have to get a R.A.# from Brian per Matthew; and said guitar has had the gloss job.
Quote from: whiskeyjack on January 16, 2006, 06:56:16 PM
Here is the email I received from Bryan with my question attached:
I just got off the phone with Bryan and he confirmed that the Larrivee family said it will indeed void the warranty.
I was surprised too. I sure didn't mean to stir up trouble, folks.
Was he specific? Does it completely void the warrantee? What happens if I polish my D-03 (I did) and the tuners turn out to be defective? And what about changing policy retroactively? I didn't polish it until I saw Brian give it a thumbs up in this forum.
I've been a crusader for Larrivee since I got mine. I'm kinda losing the warm fuzzies over this. What's the address of the Martin Forum?
Lew
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Larrivee Forum:
Ahem. . . . .I started this mess by asking Larrivee customer service if glossing, (altering the factory satin finish), my two OM-03R Larrivee guitars would void the warranty. The first answer was "Yes. Glossing will void the warranty." And that answer is correct. But, there is more to it.
Quote"Glossing" an -03 series guitar alters the finish of a guitar. If someone were to mess up polishing the instrument and "burn through" to the wood, or just do not like the result, Larrivee is not responsible to fix the finish. Therefore, when you polish your guitar, you lose any warranty claim to any finish work on the guitar. We would still honor a warranty claim if something else was wrong (like a broken truss rod, etc) but not on the finish of the guitar. The other thing to remember is that by polishing the instrument you are removing some of the finish, making the guitar more subsceptible to climate change/damage - This type of damage is not covered under warranty
I'm told that this policy has NOT changed. Altering the finish on a Larrivee guitar under warranty will NOT void the ENTIRE warranty. The clause in the warranty that applies to glossing a factory satin finish reads: "Unauthorized repairs or alterations may void this warranty." Further, "This Warranty" refers to ". . . defects in materials and workmanship. . . .." So, it follows that, if I alter the finish and screw it up OR create conditions which are detrimental to the structure of the instrument, the Larrivee family business is not responsible to repair it. . .ever. I lose ANY warranty claim to ANY finish work on the guitar and ANY structural problems related to altering the finish.
I would sincerely like to apologize for the corn-fusion and heartburn I may have caused. But it IS good to know this stuff beforehand
I know I don't deserve it, but I would like a fritter.
Quote from: whiskeyjack on January 18, 2006, 01:54:47 AM
I know I don't deserve it, but I would like a fritter.
Sorry whiskeyjack but I already ate mine. Still got lots of my Tim Horton's coffee though, wanna sip?
So they have confirmed that the only part of the warranty that is voided is the warranty on the finish, right? So if I need a neck reset on my OM-03R in 20-30 years, it's covered? If the bridge pops off for no reason, it's covered?
How's your OM-03R BTW? I know you like the 12 string version. Wondered if you got your 6?
I tell you mine just keeps getting better all the time. I think part of it is the guitar itself but part is in the bonding with the instrument. I've had mine a year now and every time I pick it up, I seem to learn a bit more of how to get the most out of it.
Actually, thats reasonable. No warrantee on the finish only.
Makes sense. I have no problem with that.
Quote from: Peter Cree on January 18, 2006, 09:37:10 AM
Actually, thats reasonable. No warrantee on the finish only.
Makes sense. I have no problem with that.
Makes since. The warm fuzzies are back.
Butt...of course; :rolleyes:
I alter that part of the guitar, the warranty no longer covers that part of the guitar. Yep.
Much ado about nothing (much).
I am considering glossing my parlor. Can someone direct me to the detailed instructions - I don't see them in the FAQ section and Tommy Young's like doesn't work.
Thanks!
QuoteSo they have confirmed that the only part of the warranty that is voided is the warranty on the finish, right? So if I need a neck reset on my OM-03R in 20-30 years, it's covered? If the bridge pops off for no reason, it's covered?
That's how I'd read it. On the other hand, if I gloss the guitar and it develops a crack, a brace pops loose or binding becomes separated. . . .those things could conceivable be interpreted as relating to the physical effort in altering the finish. I might assume that warranty repair issues on a Larrivee guitar with an altered finish might be scrutinized a little more than one which has not been altered. That's just me thinking outloud.
QuoteHow's your OM-03R BTW? I know you like the 12 string version. Wondered if you got your 6
I did get it. But, circumstances were such that I spent enough time with it to know the frets were a little high and sharp at the edges. No big deal. A week after I got it I had occasion to meet my sister in Duluth. My luthier (Jean Paul Emery - Emery Guitars in Britt, MN), lives about half way in between. Perfect@!! I dropped the guitar off to him for a setup, fret dressing and string change.
What I heard of the guitar with somewhat ratty (still useable & ok) Elixir Nano's - probably the original strings on a 2004 guitar@!! - was VERY good. It's low end is more balanced than my 000-15S Martin but just as lovely in its own way: it's plenty chocolate rich. I have yet to really assess the playability of the guitar and get to know it. Hopefully, I'll get it back end of this week, beginning of next.
I'm leaning toward an L.R. Baggs Active. I'd like an IMix Onboard but don't have the extra $.
Hey gang - does anyone have the detailed instructions on how to gloss the satins? I purchased my guitar used so I don't get any benefit from the warranty and I would never try to hold anyone responsible for any issues I created by altering my guitar. The tuners have been changed and a pup has been added so I'm out there flying solo on this rig anyway. I just want some simple steps to follow and the materials to purchase. Send me a private email if you don't want to post it here.
brandtw@pacbell.net
Quote from: whiskeyjack on January 18, 2006, 05:44:08 PM
On the other hand, if I gloss the guitar and it develops a crack, a brace pops loose or binding becomes separated.
I'm leaning toward an L.R. Baggs Active. I'd like an IMix Onboard but don't have the extra $.
I'm not sure about the brace but the binding I can see being related to the finish. Either way, as long as the finish related stuff is all that is voided in the warranty. Again, we still haven't heard anything official from Larrivee on this, as a group I mean.
I had an LR Baggs M1 Active, the soundhole pick up which I may not have really given a chance but sold it mostly because I thought it took away from the look of the guitar. I plan on getting a K&K Western Mini when I get the money for the parlor I have on layaway. The parlor is a rosewood satin, used, so I will be glossing the back and sides at least, and has an LR Baggs passive ribbon transducer already installed.
I might buy a small acoustic amp to go with it and hopefully will start gigging again this summer after a 5 year break. I'm thinking of a small Traynor 50 watt AM50T. I can get one locally for ~$425CDN. They are sold with a two year, transferable warranty on parts and labour and a 10 year warranty on the wooden enclosure.
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=32&cat=17&id=341
It's just me with a mic and guitar and I plan on playing in smaller venues so I think this amp might do the trick.
It takes considerable effort to screw up the finish when doing this. The idea of it affecting other structural aspects seems ...........out of the realm of physics as I know them.
You wanna know what really screws up a guitar? (Not polishing it.) A really bad truss adjustment. Making a saddle too high. Using too heavy a gauge string. Not humidifying correctly. Leaving it in a hot or cold car. Gigging in bars. Letting your buddy try it out after three beers...............kids..............dogs and cats..................airlines..........fed-ex...........I can on. As you all know.
So ,ok, you use the matte UV polyester to save $$ in manufacturing. It has a drawback of the swoosh that bothers quite a few people. It occludes the wood. It shines up from an arm or leg which look wierd. But the guitar is 200 bucks less due to avoiding a finishing step of buffing.
Some love it. good for them. I think it makes my guitar unplayable due to that swoosh. Can't record with it. so what can you do? Buff the sucker!
If you want the info, go to the UMGF FAQ page. I can't give out info anymore for fear of a lawsuit. Or send it to me and I'll do it for 150.00 USD plus shipping.
Peter, you should have no fear of a lawsuit by giving advice or instructions. Any damage to a guitar would be caused by someone acting on their own property with full disclosure from this thread on the instructions themselves. All of the risk is held by the owner of the guitar by doing the work themselves. You have far more risk by actually doing the work for someone and charging them money.
Anyway - I have the instructions from another source.
BTW, I visited your website and noticed that you live in NM. My wife's sister lives in Dixon NM and we've visited Chimayo - God's country for sure!
It's beautiful and God's country etc. But God better do something about "his country". The river of sorrow that flows through this green valley and its people is painful to watch. We've come a long way here but only god can help these people. It's a cultural trainwreck that visitors can't see.
Thanks for checking out my web-site. I appreciate the support.
But I'm ready to move on. Back to the world.
Cheers mate,
Peter